How did Jasnah break?

[The Honor Spren]

Some people would argue that it was when Jasnah's father, King Galivar, was slain by the Assassin in White that she broke. I, however, disagree on multiple points.

The quote below suggests something that could contribute to her breaking. This is right after Jasnah uses her soulcaster to kill the thugs.

"Besides, men like those. . ." There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before.

What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror, And who did it?

Breaking is a gradual process. It wasn't when Tien died, or when his spear-squad was slaughtered, or when he was betrayed by Amaram, or when he failed to save some slaves, that Kaladin broke, it was all of those instances together.

Her father being killed may have tipped her over the edge, but something most likely happened before that.

What do you think happened?

[Curious Anamaximder]

She saw the stick.

"I am a stick."

*Becomes Radiant*

On a more serious note, I believe her fathers death broke her.

[maxal]

Interesting you shall bring the subject of Jasnah... There's currently a very heated conversation about her on the Tor.com reread... Some folks are arguing she is a passionate person and others not. Considering what I have read so far, I have to agree with the later: she's quite the thinker and not the feeler.

 

Anyway, that being said, I do not think she was broken by her father's murder. In WoR prologue, she fell into Shadesmar via her growing bond with Ivory before Galivar was killed. I have thus to eliminate this potential cause. However, her thoughts in that chapter may have given us a clue. She goes and wander about thinking on how badly everyone reacted to her new atheism... It seemed like a more plausible culprit: having found out the foundation of her entire world are... wrong. 

 

I somehow dislike the idea she is hiding some terrible events... though her reaction with the thugs did imply she had pass encounters with them. It could be that as well.

[Quiver]

Much as I dislike the 'bad experience with men' explanation... it is one that might be backed up by Jasnah's disdain for marriage, both when Gavilar suggested her and Amaram, and her own reaction to Shallan's chances.

(I hope it isn't, but...like I said, possible evidence)

Still, it seems like she was broken before Gavilar's death, as Maxal says, since she met Ivory in the WoR prologue. As for any other possible solutions... I got nothing

I need to do a reread...

[maxal]

Much as I dislike the 'bad experience with men' explanation... it is one that might be backed up by Jasnah's disdain for marriage, both when Gavilar suggested her and Amaram, and her own reaction to Shallan's chances.

(I hope it isn't, but...like I said, possible evidence)

Still, it seems like she was broken before Gavilar's death, as Maxal says, since she met Ivory in the WoR prologue. As for any other possible solutions... I got nothing

I need to do a reread...

 

Is a "bad experience with men" really the most logical explanation? Aren't we falling at grasping the fact there are individuals who are legitimately genuinely not interested in romantic pursuits? What is the word people used in the Gender discussion? Aromantic? 

 

Jasnah words for marriage is she found it restrictive. My understanding is Jasnah feels marrying a man would force her to give up part of her research in order to fulfill her tasks as a wife. From what we have seen of Alethi unions, each partner has a very distinctive role: none it truly free to pursue their own interests without making sure they take care of their obligations first. Jasnah's impressions on the matter may have been fueled at seeing her mother forced to give up a promising career as a scholar to become Galivar's wife. Since we have inklings the union was not a happy one, it would struck, to teenage Jasnah, her mother has indeed sacrifice her talent and her life for the greater good of her father. Based on this experience, I see it as not surprising a smart, intellectual, very rational young woman, not naturally inclined to emotional display, may prefer to remain single and seek up-leveled scholarship.

 

Jasnah also strucks me as a very rational person who would not think much of emotions and love happen to be an emotion. I do not think she is incapable of love, but she would see it as "something that gets between her and her goal". I read a few forumers state they feel this way about their own love life: it made me think of Jasnah. It is not she is beyond love, she just does not engage herself enough with anyone to feel it and she is not missing it. She does not want it. 

[Quiver]

Is a "bad experience with men" really the most logical explanation? Aren't we falling at grasping the fact there are individuals who are legitimately genuinely not interested in romantic pursuits? What is the word people used in the Gender discussion? Aromantic? 

 

Jasnah words for marriage is she found it restrictive. My understanding is Jasnah feels marrying a man would force her to give up part of her research in order to fulfill her tasks as a wife. From what we have seen of Alethi unions, each partner has a very distinctive role: none it truly free to pursue their own interests without making sure they take care of their obligations first. Jasnah's impressions on the matter may have been fueled at seeing her mother forced to give up a promising career as a scholar to become Galivar's wife. Since we have inklings the union was not a happy one, it would struck, to teenage Jasnah, her mother has indeed sacrifice her talent and her life for the greater good of her father. Based on this experience, I see it as not surprising a smart, intellectual, very rational young woman, not naturally inclined to emotional display, may prefer to remain single and seek up-leveled scholarship.

 

Jasnah also strucks me as a very rational person who would not think much of emotions and love happen to be an emotion. I do not think she is incapable of love, but she would see it as "something that gets between her and her goal". I read a few forumers state they feel this way about their own love life: it made me think of Jasnah. It is not she is beyond love, she just does not engage herself enough with anyone to feel it and she is not missing it. She does not want it.

I should have been clearer- sorry!

What I meant was, I hope that Jasnahs dislike for marriage does stem from a personal choicechoice, or her nature, rather than being a consequence of some traumatic experience.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression! Just meant my post as laying out possible evidence, rather than what I believe...sorry!

[maxal]

I should have been clearer- sorry!

What I meant was, I hope that Jasnahs dislike for marriage does stem from a personal choicechoice, or her nature, rather than being a consequence of some traumatic experience.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression! Just meant my post as laying out possible evidence, rather than what I believe...sorry!

 

I absolutely agree with you: I feel the same thing. I believe she is a stronger character is the reason she chose celibacy and research was not to cover up a past trauma.

 

My question was directed towards a personal questioning as to if we are not being too inclined to see those characters through pre-determined googles... By stating she must have had a prior bad experience with men, aren't we considering she must be interested in romantic relationship because we assume people, in general, have to be?

 

"We", also includes myself 

[Dhavaer]

I don't think Jasnah's loathing for the thugs is really in need of an explanation. They're robbers, murderers and possibly rapists, which would be enough on it's own, and they were also preferentially targeting women of her class. With all that to begin with personal trauma would just be gravy.

 

If anything needs explanation it would be her attitude to seduction. In WoR she equates seduction to rape and genders them as female and male respectively. While Jasnah's actual opinions of gender aren't clear (she's written an essay decrying gender roles that Shallan reads in a flashback, but judging by Wit's reaction to her wearing a glove in the epilogue she seems to be more attached to Vorin notions of modesty than Navani is) that's a pretty strange stance to take by any measure. It would seem more reasonable to guess at a bad experience with a woman than with a man.

[mirahound]

My personal opinion is that there was a negative experience with men that contributed to Jasnah's breaking. It may not have actually happened to her personally - I would expect her interactions around men to be a bit more volatile if it had - but I can see her discovering something that happened to a friend or close acquaintance that would both close her mind to the idea of marriage and help break her enough for a bond.

[physicskid]

I think it is worth noting that we are seeing increasing evidence that Gavilar is not the man Dalinar believes him to be. Most sinister are his plots with the sons of honor and his cooperation with Amaram in returning the void bringers. If his rather twisted sense of morality extended to his domestic life he could easily be the source of trauma for Jasnah.

 

Of course this would require brandon to reuse the abusive father trope he used with Shallan, which depending on how their relationship is meant to proceed is either very likely or very unlikely.

[02ranger]

I think it is worth noting that we are seeing increasing evidence that Gavilar is not the man Dalinar believes him to be. Most sinister are his plots with the sons of honor and his cooperation with Amaram in returning the void bringers. If his rather twisted sense of morality extended to his domestic life he could easily be the source of trauma for Jasnah.

 

Of course this would require brandon to reuse the abusive father trope he used with Shallan, which depending on how their relationship is meant to proceed is either very likely or very unlikely.

Going with this theory and considering the research Jasnah is doing, maybe her father wasn't abusive, maybe just the discovery that her father was trying to end the world would be enough to break her. For all we know she worshipped her father as a child and found out about his "extra-curricular" activities, which could have broken her.

[mirahound]

Going with this theory and considering the research Jasnah is doing, maybe her father wasn't abusive, maybe just the discovery that her father was trying to end the world would be enough to break her. For all we know she worshipped her father as a child and found out about his "extra-curricular" activities, which could have broken her.

I agree that it might help break her, but I kind of doubt she found out in time. If it had been enough to break her, she would have most likely cut any emotional ties with her father, even if she acted the same as always in order to watch him. However, in her POV prologue she was friendly with him, and there's no reason to suspect she was faking that. And even if she found out later, she was already broken enough to travel to Shadesmar. 

[02ranger]

I agree that it might help break her, but I kind of doubt she found out in time. If it had been enough to break her, she would have most likely cut any emotional ties with her father, even if she acted the same as always in order to watch him. However, in her POV prologue she was friendly with him, and there's no reason to suspect she was faking that. And even if she found out later, she was already broken enough to travel to Shadesmar. 

Good points. I had forgotten about her prologue chapter. Although if he had been abusive towards her wouldn't we likely have seen something in the way she interacted with him in that chapter? Not necessarily anything blatant, but something? To be fair I don't remember that chapter very well, so maybe there was something off about it and I just don't remember.

[mirahound]

Good points. I had forgotten about her prologue chapter. Although if he had been abusive towards her wouldn't we likely have seen something in the way she interacted with him in that chapter? Not necessarily anything blatant, but something? To be fair I don't remember that chapter very well, so maybe there was something off about it and I just don't remember.

That's what I meant. Her interactions with Gavilar were perfectly normal for a healthy father/daughter relationship, which is why I don't think he contributed to her breaking. Sorry if that wasn't very clear, I have a tendency to overcomplicate everything I say. 

[02ranger]

That's what I meant. Her interactions with Gavilar were perfectly normal for a healthy father/daughter relationship, which is why I don't think he contributed to her breaking. Sorry if that wasn't very clear, I have a tendency to overcomplicate everything I say. 

I was thinking maybe she was friendly outward but there could have been some inner monologue that gave more away. I just couldn't remember. You were perfectly clear. I personally don't think he contributed to her breaking either, I was just responding to the idea somebody else put forth that he was why she was broken. I think it likely was something else in her life. It's possible, I suppose, she just broke from being different from other people and how she was treated for those differences. I don't know how likely it is, but possible I guess.

 

Do we really know how far a person has to be pushed to be broken, like we do with Snapping?

[FirstSelector]

I'm inclined to believe that it was the series of events to denounce Vorinism that 'broke' her.  The decision to give up on religion, especially in such a devout society, must have been very difficult.  Doubly so to then come out in front of the whole world as atheist.  Having to balance her sense of duty towards her family versus what she knew was correct was probably enough.

[Humpty]

Some people would argue that it was when Jasnah's father, King Galivar, was slain by the Assassin in White that she broke. I, however, disagree on multiple points.

The quote below suggests something that could contribute to her breaking. This is right after Jasnah uses her soulcaster to kill the thugs.

Breaking is a gradual process. It wasn't when Tien died, or when his spear-squad was slaughtered, or when he was betrayed by Amaram, or when he failed to save some slaves, that Kaladin broke, it was all of those instances together.

Her father being killed may have tipped her over the edge, but something most likely happened before that.

What do you think happened?

I agree with this theory in part.  From the scene with Shallan and the thugs it is clear that something happened to her in her past long before her dads murder.  My theory is she was sexually assualted and was broken in that way. Prolly during one of her first meetings with an unsavory type assassin. BTW who said being broken has to be a slow processes? If my theory is correct anyone who indured something like that could for sure have been broken by just this one instance. Not saying her fathers murder didn't widen the crack a bit but she was basicly bonded to a spren BEFORE the murder of her father. Also if my theory is correct it would explain alot in her entire character. 

 

[maxal]

I agree with this theory in part.  From the scene with Shallan and the thugs it is clear that something happened to her in her past long before her dads murder.  My theory is she was sexually assualted and was broken in that way. Prolly during one of her first meetings with an unsavory type assassin. BTW who said being broken has to be a slow processes? If my theory is correct anyone who indured something like that could for sure have been broken by just this one instance. Not saying her fathers murder didn't widen the crack a bit but she was basicly bonded to a spren BEFORE the murder of her father. Also if my theory is correct it would explain alot in her entire character. 

 

 

Why does the fact she chose not to marry need to be explained? Why does she need to have been molested to justify her decision? These thoughts are exactly what prompts me to think there is nothing more to her past than unhappy parents and having find out Vorinism was a lie.

 

 

That's what I meant. Her interactions with Gavilar were perfectly normal for a healthy father/daughter relationship, which is why I don't think he contributed to her breaking. Sorry if that wasn't very clear, I have a tendency to overcomplicate everything I say. 

 

I didn't think so. Galivar was being very condescending when he spoke to her and it has always bothered me. 

[Ansalem]

Jasnah doesn't seem like the type of person who would be broken up by losing her faith. She uses reason and evidence to come to conclusions and accepts the conclusions whatever they may be. Someone like this doesn't consider their worldview to be a part of their identity, so when they change their worldview it isn't likely to hurt. If they feel anything at all it's joy at having freed themselves from a lie. It's possible she might have experienced extreme ostricism due to announcing her beliefs as she did, but the way she describes it in the prologue announcing her atheism was mostly a calculated political maneuver, so I don't really think she's been too shaken up by the results there either. Her family obviously still loves and respects her, which is where most atheists will experience pain from coming out.

 

It isn't even obvious that she ever had faith in Vorinism in the first place, for that matter.

 

No, if Jasnah becoming an atheist is what "broke" her then she's a terribly unrealistic character, in my opinion. That would move her from one of my favorite characters to one of my least favorite instantly. I know BS is not an atheist himself, but so far I think he's done Jasnah quite a bit of justice. I don't think he would write atheism as a breaking experience for someone who sees the world the way she does.

 

Her breaking has to be something else.

[maxal]

Jasnah doesn't seem like the type of person who would be broken up by losing her faith. She uses reason and evidence to come to conclusions and accepts the conclusions whatever they may be. Someone like this doesn't consider their worldview to be a part of their identity, so when they change their worldview it isn't likely to hurt. If they feel anything at all it's joy at having freed themselves from a lie. It's possible she might have experienced extreme ostricism due to announcing her beliefs as she did, but the way she describes it in the prologue announcing her atheism was mostly a calculated political maneuver, so I don't really think she's been too shaken up by the results there either. Her family obviously still loves and respects her, which is where most atheists will experience pain from coming out.

 

It isn't even obvious that she ever had faith in Vorinism in the first place, for that matter.

 

No, if Jasnah becoming an atheist is what "broke" her then she's a terribly unrealistic character, in my opinion. That would move her from one of my favorite characters to one of my least favorite instantly. I know BS is not an atheist himself, but so far I think he's done Jasnah quite a bit of justice. I don't think he would write atheism as a breaking experience for someone who sees the world the way she does.

 

Her breaking has to be something else.

 

This does makes sense. It does befit my perception of Jasnah: a pure intellectual on a completely intellectual quest to find the truth. If I am right then finding Vorinism was a lie would not have upset her greatly nor would coming out about her atheism. However, it is the only link I do have to try to figure out her past.

 

I doubt it has anything to do with men, rape, sexual identity or such. 

 

I am thus left with my last option: her family. 

[Seloun]

I always found the following quote to be interesting:

 

 

“Perhaps if you found pleasant associations,” Gavilar said, “you would enjoy the feasts.” His eyes swung toward Amaram, whom he’d long fancied as a potential match for her.

 

It would never happen. Amaram met her eyes, then murmured words of parting to her father and hastened away down the corridor.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 19). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

From this, we can conclude that:

 

A: Jasnah has some issue with Amaram (either personally or perhaps just as a romantic partner) and that it's a significant enough issue that she says it would 'never' happen (this is a very odd position for someone who's rational and evidence-based to be taking - remember her point about how a scholar should always leave herself open to new evidence);

 

B: Jasnah's issue with Amaram was something she didn't share with Gavilar. This isn't necessarily a strong indictment, since she's hiding her dealings with Liss as well (but then again, potentially plotting the murder of your sister-in-law is a pretty extreme thing to hide, too). However, there's indication that she was on pretty good terms with her father otherwise ever since Gavilar's return from the Shattered Plains, so whatever her issue was is presumably something she felt she had to hide. While Jasnah doesn't necessarily connect with people (e.g. coldness towards Navani - though perhaps that's understandable...) she's pretty forthright about telling people what she's expecting from them. If it was just a matter of disliking Amaram or something, I don't see why Jasnah would have simply told Gavilar that.

 

Quote for A:

 

 

“A true scholar must not close her mind close on any topic,” Jasnah said, “no matter how certain she may feel. Just because I have not yet found a convincing reason to join one of the devotaries does not mean I never will. Though each time I have a discussion like the one today, my convictions grow firmer.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 469). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Quote for B:

 

 

“But he was interested in the Parshendi,” Shallan said. “Even before he could have known about their Shardblades. According to Matain’s account, he wanted to know about their language, their society, and their music. Was that just embellishment, to make him sound more scholarly to future readers?”

 

“No,” Jasnah said, lowering her own book. “The longer he remained in the Unclaimed Hills, the more fascinated by the Parshendi he became.”

“So there’s a discrepancy. Why would a man with no prior interest in scholarship suddenly become so obsessed?”

 

“Yes,” Jasnah said. “I too have wondered about this. But sometimes, people change. When he returned, I was encouraged by his interest; we spent many evenings talking about his discoveries. It was one of the few times when I felt I really connected with my father.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 629). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
 

Edited August 30, 2015 by Seloun

[mirahound]

Why does the fact she chose not to marry need to be explained? Why does she need to have been molested to justify her decision? These thoughts are exactly what prompts me to think there is nothing more to her past than unhappy parents and having find out Vorinism was a lie.

 

 

 

I didn't think so. Galivar was being very condescending when he spoke to her and it has always bothered me. 

Oh, I'm not trying to explain her reasons for not getting married, just for her breaking. Process of elimination (and foreshadowing with Shallan) suggests that either Jasnah or someone she knew was hurt by a man. I can definitely see where you might think Gavilar was condescending, but I've always read it as teasing more than cruel. It's the same sort of thing my older brothers would say if they were trying to tease me, at least. So I read her relationship with her father as fairly healthy. It's hinted she has some sort of beef with Navani, and considering what she says about her in her letter with Dalinar, I can see it being enough to break her, but I don't think we have enough textual evidence for that yet. On the other hand, her reactions to the muggers she kills, as well as Shallan's thoughts about what happened, tell me that there's at least enough there that Brandon wanted to draw attention to it.

[Ansalem]

I doubt it has anything to do with men, rape, sexual identity or such. 

 

I am thus left with my last option: her family. 

 

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be something that happened to her directly. From the two Radiants whose breaking we actually know well, their main problems stem from being unable to prevent tragedy befalling the people they care about. Granted, 2 data points does not make a trend, but it's worth considering.

 

Maybe she witnessed some horrible things happening to other people that she was powerless to stop at the time. It doesn't need to be sexual in nature for her to especially despise that type of thug from the philosophy lesson. People jump to rape because of the way she says "men like those" after mentioning that they may have been intending to rape her and Shallan, but that's not the primary crime those types are committing. Mostly they're robbing and murdering people. They may or may not have tried to rape them, but they certainly were going to kill and rob them. Could be she's lost some friends to people like them.

 

If that's what it is, though, I'm not sure it's enough to constitute a "broken" person. It could be a number of things. She's probably extremely lonely, for example.

 

It would really help if we knew at least one of the Elsecaller oaths.

 

I'm with you, though. I don't see her disinterest in men and marriage as any indication she has been abused. Some people are just genuinely not interested. I don't think her breaking is related to her sexuality.

 

I honestly don't know. Jasnah seems like a pretty complex character. It's hard for me to even guess what broke her.

[Dhavaer]

It's hinted she has some sort of beef with Navani, and considering what she says about her in her letter with Dalinar, I can see it being enough to break her, but I don't think we have enough textual evidence for that yet.

 

I think Jasnah's problem with Navani is pretty easy to work out by looking at their relationships with other people: they have massively incompatible relationship styles. Jasnah needs a tremendous amount of distance from people while Navani needs an equal amount of intimacy. If the closest Jasnah can get and be comfortable will still make Navani feel rejected, and the most distance Navani can stand will still make Jasnah feel smothered, their relationship is pretty much doomed.

[Ari]

On Jasnah and men... there's all sorts of things that could be going on there. She could be differently oriented, (ie. asexual or lesbian) she could have decided she doesn't like being in relationships for perfectly legitimate reasons, (for instance, some people just aren't good at relationships and enjoy being single more) or she could have suffered some abuse that has left her unable to trust enough for that sort of relationship. (People leap to this explanation out of a reason- it is depressingly common for women to have had some very unpleasant experiences in their romantic and sexual histories.)

 

That said, I'd like to add a few things. If Jasnah isn't interested in men in part because of some incident of abuse, this does not necessarily make her a weak character. In fact, many of the strongest women would react that way to such an experience, because sometimes being in a position of more power in the first place gives you that much further to fall. And if the madness of the events going on hasn't given her the appropriate time to heal yet, being assertive and shutting down that side of her life is probably a very rational thing for Jasnah to do, and something that reflects her strength. Having being abused doesn't make someone weak. In fact, surviving abuse and going through the healing process afterwards is a mark of incredible personal strength. Don't rule this possibility out just because you don't want Jasnah to have been through something that, at the time, might have made her feel less-than-powerful. It wouldn't undermine who she is as a character.

 

I honestly have no strong suspicions yet, although abuse is the one I've heard that seems to fit best so far, it's certainly not a slam dunk with the small bits we know about Jasnah's personal life. (Then again, given how quiet abuse is usually kept, it's one of those things that there's only a subtle difference between "not abused" and "keeping it under wraps")