Magic the Gathering fans?

[ParadoxicalZen]

Hmm, good points. And just seen the duel deck lists  BFZ is going to be kinda interesting

Edited August 17, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Dunkum]

coat of arms is another fun one.  great for tokens, but it affects all creatures, regardless of who owns/controls them, so if your opponent is using a creature based deck, especially a tribal one, then you might help him as much as if not more than yourself.

[Wyrmhero]

Hmm, good points. And just seen the duel deck lists  BFZ is going to be kinda interesting

 

I'm not too sure what to think about it. Dominator Drone is just all over the place, for example. I don't really like any of the abilities they've revealed.

• Devoid is a sensible way to do colourless things, but I'm not sure if it needs a mechanic if it's going to have rulestext on all the more common (and thus coloured) Eldrazi.
• Ingest... No. It's very, very low impact, and entirely dependant on comboing it with other things. Dominator Drone, in a perfect world, exiles five cards from your opponent's library before killing them. That's barely even worth considering, and it's worthless as mill (not that it's intended to enable mill, mind you). If it was at least Ingest X, it would be interesting.
• Awaken is a very complicated (and poorly worded, I would say) ability. I don't get why they didn't make it an additional cost rather than an alternative cost. I'm really unsure as to how much design space there is there.

I am somewhat disappointed that it's not Jund Eldrazi in the deck as well. Awakening Zone would have been a good include, as well as more Eldrazi rather than generic 'sacrifice' effects. The other side is a bit all over the place too - Landfall and Level Up and Allies with barely any Ally effects? Hmm. I am also disappointed they included Rocky Tar Pits instead of a decent dual-land. They could have done a Bloodstained Mire or Lavaclaw, even if it wouldn't quite fit. The vast majority of cards reprinted in the duel deck have had a very recent reprinting. Some very nice ones at the price, sure, but... Bah, I just hate Wizard's reprint policy .

 

coat of arms is another fun one.  great for tokens, but it affects all creatures, regardless of who owns/controls them, so if your opponent is using a creature based deck, especially a tribal one, then you might help him as much as if not more than yourself.

 

I'm quite fond of Shared Animosity as well - I keep meaning to pick a copy up for my monored Elementals. Conspire cards are also rather good with tokens.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[Dunkum]

I'm not too sure what to think about it. Dominator Drone is just all over the place, for example. I don't really like any of the abilities they've revealed.

• Devoid is a sensible way to do colourless things, but I'm not sure if it needs a mechanic if it's going to have rulestext on all the more common (and thus coloured) Eldrazi.
• Ingest... No. It's very, very low impact, and entirely dependant on comboing it with other things. Dominator Drone, in a perfect world, exiles five cards from your opponent's library before killing them. That's barely even worth considering, and it's worthless as mill (not that it's intended to enable mill, mind you). If it was at least Ingest X, it would be interesting.
• Awaken is a very complicated (and poorly worded, I would say) ability. I don't get why they didn't make it an additional cost rather than an alternative cost. I'm really unsure as to how much design space there is there.

I am somewhat disappointed that it's not Jund Eldrazi in the deck as well. Awakening Zone would have been a good include, as well as more Eldrazi rather than generic 'sacrifice' effects. The other side is a bit all over the place too - Landfall and Level Up and Allies with barely any Ally effects? Hmm. I am also disappointed they included Rocky Tar Pits instead of a decent dual-land. They could have done a Bloodstained Mire or Lavaclaw, even if it wouldn't quite fit. The vast majority of cards reprinted in the duel deck have had a very recent reprinting. Some very nice ones at the price, sure, but... Bah, I just hate Wizard's reprint policy .

 

 

I'm quite fond of Shared Animosity as well - I keep meaning to pick a copy up for my monored Elementals. Conspire cards are also rather good with tokens.

Shared Animosity is a good one.

 

I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to the new set.  I pretty much hated every Eldrazi card when they came out, and Annihilator is a ridiculously overpowered ability, so I had little interest in a return to that particular set/plane.  That said, I never much liked the land to creatures mechanics, so I am not really liking awaken at all.  generally I find it just makes it much easier to get rid of your lands, and they don't tend to do much that couldn't be done better with an actual creature.  looking at the awaken ability for sheer drop, it is an extra 2 mana to get a 3/3.  that's slightly cheaper than average, but not gratuitously so, and not really worth the costs, to my mind.  occasionally it could be useful to increase your creature count in a last ditch attack, or to suddenly have a defender when your opponent thought your creatures were tapped out, but those effects could be temporary and work just fine.  no need to let you opponent remove one of your lands for one mana with lightning bolt, instead of 3 with stone rain.  your other points about it are spot on as well.

 

devoid is...fine.  no problem, but not especially excited about it.  agree with your points on ingest.  maybe if you could do more with the card (play it as though it were in your hand for a turn?), or if it milled more of them, or almost any reasonable second part would improve that ability.

[Wyrmhero]

I like hitting people with my lands (as I posted my land deck earlier ), but I just feel it's... dull. It's a mechanic solely built around limited and providing value with excess lands. Obviously you're not meant to use it when you're low on lands, but it's still just less than exciting. If there's a decent card or two with Awaken I might pick them up, but not solely for that effect.

 

Devoid is interesting because it shows the direction they're going with colourless cards. I agree with it; it's a good way to make fair 'colourless' spells, even if they still have a colour identity.

 

As I said, Ingest is just a combo mechanic. It does nothing on its own (aside from maybe screwing with your opponent's Scry effects), but it seems like it will require bigger Eldrazi to do things with your opponents' cards. Just have to wait and see on that, though I dislike building mechanics solely for combo potential.

[Dunkum]

I'm not even seeing it as combo potential, really.  unless there are a lot of cards with "whenever a card is put into your graveyard (from you library, from anywhere)" type effects.  maybe if there is some extra library interaction, a lot of "search your library for x" type stuff, then ingest serves as a slight counter to that.  or maybe opponent graveyard interaction (mortivore, teneb the harvester, etc).  you an find cards with the sorts of abilities that would make it useful, but I wouldn't really qualify it as having combo potential unless they actually print some more of those cards in the set.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I could see Ingest being used maybe as part of a depletion deck (when a creature with it is made unblockable), especially if there's a number next to it e.g. Ingest 2/3 etc or perhaps combining Tormod's Crypt with Depletion and Oblivion Sower (+ any other Eldrazi creature that allows you to access cards from exile)

 

Although from the first look at it, I thought Ingest would have been something like X mana: Exile target permanent where X is that permanent's mana cost from target graveyard and add x +1/+1 counters to this creature (which is practically Scavenge now that i re-read it) or something similar

Edited August 19, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Wyrmhero]

I'm not even seeing it as combo potential, really.  unless there are a lot of cards with "whenever a card is put into your graveyard (from you library, from anywhere)" type effects.  maybe if there is some extra library interaction, a lot of "search your library for x" type stuff, then ingest serves as a slight counter to that.  or maybe opponent graveyard interaction (mortivore, teneb the harvester, etc).  you an find cards with the sorts of abilities that would make it useful, but I wouldn't really qualify it as having combo potential unless they actually print some more of those cards in the set.

 

I reckon all the rare Eldrazi are going to have Exile-based effects, and the common and uncommon ones set up for them. I don't like that idea though, because it seems really dependant on the combo, so I don't know... I would hope there are some 'self-contained' Eldrazi though, I think that's the only way it could be useful.

 

I could see Ingest being used maybe as part of a depletion deck (when a creature with it is made unblockable), especially if there's a number next to it e.g. Ingest 2/3 etc or perhaps combining Tormod's Crypt with Depletion and Oblivion Sower (+ any other Eldrazi creature that allows you to access cards from exile)

 

Although from the first look at it, I thought Ingest would have been something like X mana: Exile target permanent where X is that permanent's mana cost from target graveyard and add x +1/+1 counters to this creature (which is practically Scavenge now that i re-read it) or something similar

 

Ingest only ever exiles one card though. So it's not got much of an effect in a vacuum. Will be interesting to see how much Eldrazi cards interact with Delved cards though.

[Dunkum]

guess we'll have to wait and see what the rest of the set holds.  as it stands, though, ingest is looking pretty weak.  better than nothing, but not really worth paying extra mana for or anything

[Wyrmhero]

Thinking about it, the only card we've seen it on is a 3 CMC 3/2. In limited, that's already disappointingly playable. It's colourless, which adds synergies and is unlikely to remove them. It has another ability which can let it hit a player for 2 on ETB. Already we're looking at a fairly solid common here, so I don't think we're actually paying for Ingest.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I just wanna see some sneak previews for BFZ so I know what i can expect ^^ Especially in regards to green, due to Avenger of Zendikar

 

Am now tempted to make a G/R/W elemental/land deck

Edited August 22, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[ParadoxicalZen]

Trying to find the best use for my other Primeval Bounty, but can't find a deck of mine that would make best use of it apart from my Mana Ramp, Tokens or Monogreen/beast decks. My Beast already has one and while it is good with my tokens, it is a bit wasted. Mana ramp has had it before but it kind of feels fine as it is. Thoughts?

[Dunkum]

well 6 mana is a bit expensive, though if any color could manage that cost it would be green.  I could see it working in a deck that already has a +1/+1 counter focus, like one based around evolve or modular; this is especially true if you have creatures or spells that can use those +1/+1 counters like a fathom mage or simic manipulator.  comboing it with any "whenever a creature enters the battlefield" or "whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control" type abilities also seems like it could work, but would likely be even more expensive.  it also seems like it would combo well with Life and Limb in a saproling token deck.  and of course +1/+1 counters and 3/3 tokens seem like a good combination in a trample deck.

[Wyrmhero]

Primeval Bounty is the epitome of 'win-more' as a card. It is expensive, has no immediate effect, and rewards you for playing cards. It's effects may help you stabilise over time, but not if you are already dying to your opponent's board. What this means is that it doesn't fit in every deck, and finding a home for it can be very difficult. I had a copy in my Land deck, once upon a time, before moving it into my EDH deck, and then removing it for a trade.

It works best in EDH, in my opinion, where high CMC spells are more viable. The issue with ramp is that there are better things to ramp in to, particularly when it's relatively easy to deal with due to Naturalise.

It works best really in Monogreen outside of EDH, ideally with a heavy creature count (as that is the best mode it has). The counters part is nice, but requires you to have a developed board, and the life gain is negligible and a top-up effect more than anything.

Other than that though, I couldn't really say. It is a versatile and powerful card, but doesn't advance any one strategy more than others. Maybe try it out in a few places, and if it seems too slow or doesn't really do enough, swap it with something more focused.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I was thinking of a primary green, with slightly dipping into black, combining it with MO's Evolutionary leap. Green have a few cheap costing/highly decent low creatures (Kalonian Tusker/Deathly Recluse etc.) that can trigger PB and then can use the beasts as sacrifices. Mmm, hard to pick

[Dunkum]

Evolutionary Leap isn't really a card I like a whole lot.  there is no guarantee that the creature you are sacrificing will net you a better creature than the one you lost, this is especially true if you are sacrificing a 3/3.  unless you get some benefit out of the sacrifice itself (and there are definitely black cards that could make that happen), i think it is a bit too much of a gamble.

 

I hadn't seen the term "Win-more" before, but it is definitely spot on for primeval bounty.  in a pinch, there are most likely going to be better things you can do (not every time, but mostly), but if you are already in good shape, it can help keep you there.

 

extrapolating a bit from wyrmhero's post: green creature heavy EDH/commander deck seems a more or less ideal situation for it.  you have the time to build up the mana for it, and usually the time to use its abilities some.  if you mixed in some +1/+1 counter manipulation/interaction then you would benefit from the secondary ability as well.  but at this point you are basically building a deck around it, and it isn't strong enough to warrant that.  so basically I would say take a second and consider if any of the above sounds like a deck you would want to/ be able to build without primeval bounty, and then maybe think about adding it in if you do build one.

[Wyrmhero]

Evolutionary Leap is a very strong card, based off the utterly broken Survival of the Fittest. The trick isn't to rely on the sacrifice getting you a better creature, but to chain leave-the-battlefield or come-into-play effects for a strong series of plays. Thragtusk, for instance, works quite well with it. It's also useful on the defensive, as you can sacrifice blockers and creatures targeted by your opponent's spells. Alternatively, as you suggested earlier, Spren, cheap creatures can be used to apply pressure early on and then used as fodder. A Green/Black deck could also work well with it if you have something re-usable, such as Reassembling Skeleton. ...Hm, starting to wish I'd grabbed a copy myself recently .

 

It's not a good idea to built around Primeval Bounty in a deck due to the cost outside of EDH, but it's not even a good build-around in EDH. That's not solely due to the power level, however, but simply because it's a bit vulnerable (removal is a key part of EDH) and you only get one copy of it. It's a very good include, but as an enabler to a strategy amongst many rather than a central piece. I had one in Kresh, The Bloodbraided, making use of the +1/+1 counters and the tokens it produces in multiple ways (as the deck is based on both counters and tokens and sacrifice effects).

 

I suppose a one-of could be of use though in a standard 60-card deck, but I'd still lean towards heavily creature-based over any other type.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[Dunkum]

I think we agree on primeval bounty's usefulness: it is good, but not good enough to build a deck around.  For Evolutionary leap, it would work in concert with enter and leave the battlefield effects, but that, again, is the card working to combo with others, not workign on its own strength.  that said, such a deck could be interesting, especially with some graveyard interaction.  something like Mortivore, where each sacrifice increases his power, or as you mention, reassembling skeleton where you can return it each turn would help a lot.  kresh too, for that matter (though my friend has found what might be the best combo with kresh: phyrexian dreadnought).  you could combo it w primeval bounty, but that just seems inefficient.

[connormce10]

You can make a pretty good Commander deck around Detention Sphere, It That Betrays, and Gideon, Champion of Justice.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Ojutai_Soul of Winter

[ParadoxicalZen]

Never really seen any greens with decent LTB effects, at least not recently. And agreed. I wouldn't base a deck around PB, but i'm trying to find a good combo chain for it (been tempted to get M15's Garruk as a possibility but not sure yet)

Any good cards for ETB and LTB?

Edited August 25, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Dunkum]

Never really seen any greens with decent LTB effects, at least not recently. And agreed. I wouldn't base a deck around PB, but i'm trying to find a good combo chain for it (been tempted to get M15's Garruk as a possibility but not sure yet)

Any good cards for ETB and LTB?

just a couple of quick gatherer searches:

w=white, u=blue, b=black, r=red, g=green, a=artifact, l=land

 

for entering:

cathar's crusade (w), anything with evolve (generally u, g, or ug), cream of the crop (g), death match (b ), impact tremors (r ), mana echoes (r ), valor in akros (w)

 

for leaving ( i could only find for the creature dying, but that works for this, i think)

black market (b ), blade of the bloodchief (a), fecundity (g), lifeline (a), liliana, defiant necromancer (b ), lumberknot (g), thornbite staff (a), vicious shadows (r )

 

and that is just skimming off the top from a couple of simple searches:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[%22whenever%20a%20creature%20dies%22]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[%22whenever%20a%20creature%20enters%20the%20battlefield%22]

 

any slight variation on the triggering clause ("whenever another creature" instead of "whenever a creature" e.g.) would yield different results.

 

edit: in fact, here is a larger search, incorporating most variations I could think of offhand,  at least some of these should be good:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=|[%22whenever%20another%20creature%20dies%22]|[%22whener%20a%20creature%20you%20control%20dies%22]|[%22whenever%20another%20creature%20you%20control%20dies%22]|[%22whenever%20a%20creature%20dies%22]|[%22whenever%20a%20creature%20enters%20the%20battlefield%22]|[%22whenever%20another%20creature%20enters%20the%20battlefield%22]

Edited August 25, 2015 by Dunkum

[Wyrmhero]

You can make a pretty good Commander deck around Detention Sphere, It That Betrays, and Gideon, Champion of Justice.

 

I'm not sure what the combo there is meant to be?

 

I think all you want to do for ETB/LTG effects is to take cues from Birthing Pod decks which used to run in Modern. Stuff like Kitchen Finks, Eternal Witness, Reclamation Sage (rather handy for Naturalise effects), Murderous Redcap (in black), maybe Siege Rhino if you go three colours, combined with Melira to reuse Persist triggers.

[Darkness Ascendant]

I used to play MTG me and my mates would play it at school whenever we were bored. Good times

[Dunkum]

I'm not sure what the combo there is meant to be?

Glad I wasn't the only one missing the connection there.  at a guess, all those cards seem reasonably good at removing your opponents' defenses (and the detention sphere could be used to reserve a permanent against gideon's -15 ability, which seems pretty useful)  beyond that, I don't see much.

[Wyrmhero]

Ah, I see it. Exile your own creature with an Oblivion Ring-style effect, then use Gideon's ability to bring it back. Then you have several turns to whack at your opponents before they get the mana up to have a defence. Using It That Betrays lets you steal Lands to both help you cast more stuff and stop your opponents stopping stuff. Gideon's also not difficult to tick up in multiplayer, he just has to survive a turn.

 

You could do it in monowhite with Oblivion Ring or Banishing Light or the like. There's stuff like Barren Glory as well, which could be very handy for this when exiled with O-Ring. They banned Worldfire in EDH for exactly these sort of combos.