Magic the Gathering fans?

[Dunkum]

there are plenty of ways to counter hexproof.  using non-targeting spells, or spells that target the player, not the creature, or countering it as it is played.  really the key is that they need to avoid making too many or too overpowered hexproof creatures.  the workaround you describe seems like it would be pretty rare, anyway, so not really considered a viable/standard way around those mechanisms.  whereas right now the rule makes a distinction that I don't think is necessary.  pretty much any spell that hits a single creature (or player or planeswalker, r other permanent) is targeting.  to have aura's be different, even just in this one weird bringing it back from the grave instance, is bizarre

[Wyrmhero]

Point of order, if you bring an Aura (or anything, for that matter) direct from hand, library, graveyard or exile to play, it's never a spell. Cards only become spells while they're on the stack, which is when their targeting restrictions come into play. Doesn't matter what permanent it is, you can always put it into play, while if it targets something on cast, you may not be able to cast it all the time.

 

There are very few ways to interact with Hexproof creatures (and indeed, many are overpowered to ridiculous levels), and the only real way to interact with them is to board-wipe and the like. Edicts work as well, but only if your opponent has one creature, which is often not the case.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I thought creatures that are hexproof through their own card text would be immune to a board-wipe spell, or are you referring to a few specific spells in particular?

 

And a good way to counter someone's counter for casting a creature spell is Savage summoning, then casting Archetype of Endurance <3 (that is, if you're playing green ofc)

 

EDIT: another question, if you have the Dismiss into Dream enchantment in play and you then play Scouring Sands - or similar spell -  (deal 1 one damage to each creature opponent controls. Scry 1) will you trigger DiD's effect or does it specifically have to state 'target creature' in the text? 

Edited August 13, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Wyrmhero]

'Target' is a word with very specific meaning in Magic. No creatures are immune to board-wipes (except Indestructibles in most cases and usually Norin the Wary ). Hexproof/Shroud means the permanent cannot be selected as a target for a spell while it is in play. Boardwipes, such as Wrath of God, do not ever use the word 'target', and thus are not able to dodge it.

 

Archetype of Endurance has no effect on creature spells. Hexproof does not stop a creature being countered, neither does Protection for that matter. Hexproof only has an effect when it's in play. You could counter a burn spell or something in that way, but you'll need to look elsewhere for countering counter Creature spells - Such as Gaea's Herald. My favourite way though is probably Gutteral Response - A red or green spell (hybrid mana!) which literally just counters blue instant spells (or counterspells, mainly ).

 

Again, same here with Illusions as with the first part. You need to have the word 'target' in the spell or ability for it to be a target. A spell only targets if it says target in the text or rules (such as the rules for Auras on cast, or Equip effects).

[ParadoxicalZen]

Didn't mean Archetype prevented counter, bad wording on my part

 

Colours, that's thrown a wrench into my counterburn deck. Curse you wizards!

[Wyrmhero]

Just combine Willbender and stuff like Twin Bolt or Electrolyse instead? Anything with multiple targets works. Though questionable as to just how effective it is compared to normal counter-burn strategies.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I'll probably just switch out those All Creature spells to ones with 1/2/3 damage to 1/2/3 creatures and/or players, think i've a few somewhere

[Dunkum]

Point of order, if you bring an Aura (or anything, for that matter) direct from hand, library, graveyard or exile to play, it's never a spell. Cards only become spells while they're on the stack, which is when their targeting restrictions come into play. Doesn't matter what permanent it is, you can always put it into play, while if it targets something on cast, you may not be able to cast it all the time.

 

There are very few ways to interact with Hexproof creatures (and indeed, many are overpowered to ridiculous levels), and the only real way to interact with them is to board-wipe and the like. Edicts work as well, but only if your opponent has one creature, which is often not the case.

that is a point.  but the easy way to adjust the rules to get around that would be to make the actual enchanting a triggered ability that happens when the aura comes into play.  something along the lines of what I said before where the rule text for "Enchant <thing>" would be something like "when this card comes into play, attach it to target <thing>.  if there is no valid target, put this card into the graveyard"  there maybe would have to be a couple extra lines or something to cover weird eventualities, but I think that would deal with most of it.  this would also have some weird effects on other cards that have "when an enchantment comes into play" or "wehn an enchantment is put into the graveyard from play" type triggered abilities, but overall I'm not sure that is actually a problem.  alternatively, they could probably find ways to get around that too, if they really wanted

 

basically, I just really don't like that you can attach an aura to something without targeting it, just something about that seems really weird to me, and I think it should be changed.  You clearly are fine with it, so we will have to agree to disagree there.  my only other point is that I think they could pretty easily fix my objections if they really wanted to.

@Paradox Spren - I don't know what colors you plan to make this deck, but there are a fair amount of cards that do "x damage split among any number of target creatures" where you can hit up to x creatures.  these usually have some kind of X cost though, often mana, sometimes life or sacrifice.

[ParadoxicalZen]

@Paradox Spren - I don't know what colors you plan to make this deck, but there are a fair amount of cards that do "x damage split among any number of target creatures" where you can hit up to x creatures.  these usually have some kind of X cost though, often mana, sometimes life or sacrifice.

 

Yeah, it's just tweaking my blue/red deck. I'll have a gander, thanks!

[Wyrmhero]

that is a point.  but the easy way to adjust the rules to get around that would be to make the actual enchanting a triggered ability that happens when the aura comes into play.  something along the lines of what I said before where the rule text for "Enchant <thing>" would be something like "when this card comes into play, attach it to target <thing>.  if there is no valid target, put this card into the graveyard"  there maybe would have to be a couple extra lines or something to cover weird eventualities, but I think that would deal with most of it.  this would also have some weird effects on other cards that have "when an enchantment comes into play" or "wehn an enchantment is put into the graveyard from play" type triggered abilities, but overall I'm not sure that is actually a problem.  alternatively, they could probably find ways to get around that too, if they really wanted

 

It would allow you to play Aura spells whenever, yes, but it would also cause problems with the fact that un-attached Auras go straight to the graveyard before effects trigger. You could prevent that happening with a change to the rules, but then you have the issue of Auras that become unattached (or Auras with no valid targets) remaining in play. Auras also have a premium on card space, so any extra rules will massively impact how it looks. All in all, we do have to agree to disagree here.

 

Cone of Flame is a pretty amusing multi-target spell; 1 damage to a creature/player, 2 to another, and 3 to a third. Bear in mind though that all three must be valid targets. My suggestion would be to load it with things like Willbreaker, Battlemage Thaumaturge, Curse of the Swine, Comet Storm, stuff like that.

[The Sovereign]

Sorry to jump off the Auras topic here, but does anyone here play any Eternal Magic? This is what I currently have sleeved up in Legacy:

Miracles:

Edited August 14, 2015 by Iron Eyes

[ParadoxicalZen]

What is eternal magic?

[The Sovereign]

What is eternal magic?

Legacy and Vintage: All sets of magic are legal but there is a list of cards that are banned (in Legacy) or Restricted to 1 per deck (in Vintage).

[ParadoxicalZen]

Hmm, sounds like what me and my friends play (within reason as only one friend has cards dating back to late nineties/early noughties)

 

EDIT: Spelling, and question time again

 

Would Door of Destinies work in a Minotaur deck? As in, as long as a creature name has Minotaur in it somewhere, the effect would still apply?

Edited August 15, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Dunkum]

Hmm, sounds like what me and my friends play (within reason as only one friend has cards dating back to late nineties/early noughties)

 

EDIT: Spelling, and question time again

 

Would Door of Destinies work in a Minotaur deck? As in, as long as a creature name has Minotaur in it somewhere, the effect would still apply?

door of destinies should work in any deck based around a single creature type.  it isn't the name of the creature you are lookign at it is the subtype (the bit where ti should say creature - minotaur).

 

 

as to the eternal magic, I don't tend to go to tournaments and stuff, so when I am playing with friends, anything goes.  i dont think anyone I know has any of the power 9, but I don't think any of us would complain if one of them were played.  so basically, other than white border cards, and unglued/unhinged cards, anything goes.

[Wyrmhero]

door of destinies should work in any deck based around a single creature type.  it isn't the name of the creature you are lookign at it is the subtype (the bit where ti should say creature - minotaur).

 

 

as to the eternal magic, I don't tend to go to tournaments and stuff, so when I am playing with friends, anything goes.  i dont think anyone I know has any of the power 9, but I don't think any of us would complain if one of them were played.  so basically, other than white border cards, and unglued/unhinged cards, anything goes.

Yup, if it's got 'Creature - Minotaur' or anything similar to that or has 'Changeling' as an ability, it will trigger the Door. If you're looking at Minotaur tribal, and are playing with any cards, might be worth looking at Didgeridoo, which is an old card which allows you to put Minotaurs into play from your hand at any time for 3 Mana, regardless of how much they would usually cost. Homelands was a terribly underpowered set, but some of the cards are hilarious . Note that putting them directly into play like this would not trigger the Door, though.

 

Why not white-bordered cards, out of interest? They're legal in tournaments (and played a lot, for that matter, in Legacy/Vintage), and there are some that are even legal in modern. It just means 'Core Set 9th edition and before'. I personally think they look ugly and don't use them, but I'm curious as to why your playgroup doesn't allow them.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[Dunkum]

Yup, if it's got 'Creature - Minotaur' or anything similar to that or has 'Changeling' as an ability, it will trigger the Door. If you're looking at Minotaur tribal, and are playing with any cards, might be worth looking at Didgeridoo, which is an old card which allows you to put Minotaurs into play from your hand at any time for 3 Mana, regardless of how much they would usually cost. Homelands was a terribly underpowered set, but some of the cards are hilarious . Note that putting them directly into play like this would not trigger the Door, though.

 

Why not white-bordered cards, out of interest? They're legal in tournaments (and played a lot, for that matter, in Legacy/Vintage), and there are some that are even legal in modern. It just means 'Core Set 9th edition and before'. I personally think they look ugly and don't use them, but I'm curious as to why your playgroup doesn't allow them.

must not be white bordered I meant.  gold bordered?  the ones that are pre-made tournament winner decks that aren't legal in tournament play.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Sweet, wasn't entirely sure if it only applied to cards that had to have 'minotaur' as the creature type text or if it worked with those who had Minotaur as a sub-type. Sorely tempted to buy a doubling season next month...Q_Q ...and I've just seen Privileged Position...

Edited August 16, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Wyrmhero]

must not be white bordered I meant.  gold bordered?  the ones that are pre-made tournament winner decks that aren't legal in tournament play.

 

Ah, got you. I've never seen any gold-bordered cards, come to think of it. Then again, I've only seen four or five Un-cards as well.

 

Sweet, wasn't entirely sure if it only applied to cards that had to have 'minotaur' as the creature type text or if it worked with those who had Minotaur as a sub-type. Sorely tempted to buy a doubling season next month...Q_Q ...and I've just seen Privileged Position...

 

Magic rarely cares about names. In the vast majority of games, the only time the name matters (aside from the 4-of rule in deck construction) is for checking Legendary creatures. And outside of Un-sets, there are no Magic cards which care about a 'part' of the name, like in Yu-Gi-Oh.

 

I'd be cautious here, you can very easily overspend without needing it. Budget options exist and may be just as useful, if not better. If no-one else uses tokens or counters, get Primal Vigor (though this only works for +1/+1 counters, rather than all counters). If you only care about tokens, get Parallel Lives. If you only care about +1/+1 counters, might be better off with Hardened Scales. Only get Doubling Season if you make use of both aspects, and if other people would use them as well if you used a global effect.

 

And Privileged Position isn't necessarily the best either - Ascetism does the same in monogreen for your Creatures, but costs less and allows you to regenerate your Creatures. Or just ramp into Archetype of Endurance for the same effect on a body.

[Dunkum]

agreed.  doubling season is more versatile, but you don't always need that much versatility.  and parallel lives is cheaper, both in actual dollars and in mana cost, so if you only need the token duplication it is the better choice.  personally, I want both, and maybe primal vigor as well, but that's because I have extra uses for the counter duplication, and I want it for a commander deck, so only one of each card allowed.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Hmm, I'll give it some thought, but i doubt I will (due to your solid reasoning as well as other card priorities) 

 

Any thoughts on the From the Vault: Angels package? Some of them i wouldn't mind for my Angels and Demons deck

[Wyrmhero]

I'm not really sure what I think about FTV: A. There are some very nice Angels in there (Iona, Akromas, Avacyn, Entreat, Baneslayer and Jenara), but there are also some rather more junk ones. And Exalted Angel's just a weird one to add. I think at least it's one that's hopefully going to remain somewhat near the suggested price, even with Avacyn and Baneslayer, considering. ...Or not, as I'm looking it up. £80 on Magic Madhouse when it has a price of $35... Well, I guess I'm never going to buy an FTV set then .

 

I might grab both Akromas to replace the non-foil one in my Morph deck and to slot into my Angels, but my Angel deck already has Platinum Angel, Entreat and Avacyn. But then, I'm not playing Magic much at all right now, so it's nowhere near as urgent (if that's the right word) to do that anyway.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[Dunkum]

yea, I already have Avacyn, Platinum angel and a few good ones that aren't in that set (Gisela is the commander for one of my commander decks) so no particular need to pick up any of those.  plus angels tend toward the expensive side, mana-wise, so I don't use too many of them anyway

[ParadoxicalZen]

Given the individual prices and overall price, I only really want a couple anyway. Only just seen Avacyn's price tag Q_Q

 

but defo Platinum Angel, Akroma, Exalted, Iona, wouldn't mind entreat the angels but damnation that's a little too steep

 

And just discovered Obelisk of Urd. Not a bad alternative for DoD but perhaps better used in conjuntion

Edited August 17, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Wyrmhero]

Obelisk and DoD fulfill slightly different functions, in my opinion. Both are very good cards, but shine in different circumstances.

 

Obelisk of Urd (I do hate the nonsensical name >>) is mostly good for token decks and aggro decks, because it gives an immediate boost and can come down much earlier thanks to Convoke - Turn 1 Goblin, turn 2 Dragon Fodder, turn 3 Obelisk of Urd, for example. Convoke also gives a nice bit of flexibility with casting.

 

DoD is better for decks where you are playing a lot of creature spells of the correct type, and can make use of the slower plan. It takes roughly until turn 6 to get the same bonus out of it - and that's assuming you play creature spells the next two turns, which may not happen if you topdeck it late game.

 

So really, it's a question of the speed of your deck and the number of creature spells you have in it of the right type.