Jasnah Prologue

[Shardlet]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/712-report-signing-with-brandon-and-peter-orullian/?hl=%2Bszeth+%2Bspren'>source

 

Me: This will probably be RAFO'd, but: Is Szeth bound to a spren?
BS: No. He's not. Haha, I didn't RAFO that.

[hoser]

So the only reason the spren aren't seen in Shinovar is that the people there don't believe in them?  It has nothing to do with the lack of highstorms and stormlight?  Why did people anywhere start seeing spren in the first place?  They wouldn't have believed in them. 

 

The unique lack of spren in Shinovar and the unique lack of highstorms in Shinovar are purely coincidental?  This seems like fitting the facts to the theory.  I am beyond skeptical. 

[Gloom]

Yes, that would be honorable, but that isn't what Shallan was intent on doing. For her actions to be honorable, she would have had to warn Jasnah of her situation and her intentions to rob her beforehand. Deception isn't honorable.

Not so. If a man is plotting to kill your family and you know for 100% fact that he is going to do such a thing if something doesn't stop him and the only way to do so is to kill the man, do you have to tell him you're going to kill before you do such? No.

 

What was Shallans intent, and how did she feel about it? She intended to steal something from Jasnah because she felt that Jasnah was unworthy of the object. She felt terrible about it, and continued to feel worse about it the better she got to know Jasnah. Other more honorable avenues may have existed to extract her family from their predicament, but she convinced not only herself, but her brothers as well, that this was the best chance they had to protect their house. She KNEW that her actions were wrong. She could justify her actions sure, she hoped she could live with them, but they weren't honorable, they were expedient.

 

Honor is tied to honesty. Kaladin desecrated the Parshendi dead, but he did so to preserve the lives of his men. He made no attempt to deceive the Parshendi about what he did, he threw himself in the vanguard of the bridgecrews, fully aware that they would take umbrage at his display and make him a target. If he had hidden the fact that he had used their corpses to armor his men, it would have been a deceit, and therefore dishonorable.

 

Hiring an assassin may be politically necessary, it may save thousands of lives, but it could never be deemed an honorable action. The hiring of an assassin shields the identity of the person who hired the assassin. it is a deceit, and therefore not honorable. The honorable thing to do would be to face your enemy and die. Honor and expediency are often at odds. It worries me that this explanation is even necessary.

[Kurkistan]

I think that the lack of any native, visible Spren is caused by the lack of belief in them making them wan or weaker. Brandon has made comment (I don't know where it is off the top of my head) that seems to infer that Spren are something Cognitive that has slipped a little bit into the Physical Realm due to the Cognitive pressure of belief, but aren't really Physical. (I'll look for the quote, it had something to do about taking a picture of a Spren and whether or not it would show up.)

 

Here you go.

 

Source:

Kurkistan: Could Syl, or any other type of Spren, be seen in a photograph?

Brandon: Excellent question, and I like the way you phrase it. Let's give this one a little more time before I get into the specifics of whether spren are manifesting physically or not.

This probably isn't the proof you were thinking of, though, since Brandon essentially gives a very thorough RAFO while confirming that spren are not primarily Physical (which we'd kind of guessed ). This may be hubristic of me, but I do have a thread on that matter, if you'd like to look further.

 

Beyond that, I'll have to agree with hoser that the rest of your theory is a bit of a reach at this point.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

Honor is tied to honesty. Kaladin desecrated the Parshendi dead, but he did so to preserve the lives of his men. He made no attempt to deceive the Parshendi about what he did, he threw himself in the vanguard of the bridgecrews, fully aware that they would take umbrage at his display and make him a target. If he had hidden the fact that he had used their corpses to armor his men, it would have been a deceit, and therefore dishonorable.

 

This may be off topic, but are you sure you can't be honorable while lying? What if you made a promise to someone, and that promise ended up requiring you to lie? A bit contrived, but imagine you swore to protect someone at all costs, and they will die if you tell the truth about something.

 

My crackpot theory on Splintering involves the fact that concepts like honor tend to be self-contradicting in ways like that.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Moogle

[Gloom]

Honor can be defined a lot of ways by a lot of people, but in Roshar, it appears obvious to me that the type of honor that Honor acknowledges centers around honesty, trust, nobility, oaths, and bonds. There is very little room for lying in his interpretation, unless a lie is the only way to avoid deception.

[hoser]

Kaladin lies in Syl's presence, and even explains that some lies are fine.  She doesn't break the bonds.  I agree w/ you Moogle that lying is possible, but it must be considered in light of the situation and intention.

[Looter]

I totally agree hoser. Lies are not always bad, trust me I am married and small lies that make someone feel better at a cost to your own comfort are while not necessary at least in the realm of honor. Lack of honor is something that you serve yourself above the needs of all others.

Shallen could have chosen someone lower than the sister of the most powerful king on the planet to try and commit her theft. She chose jasnah because of her views and reputation which would have put Jasnah in a position of low reputation. Shallen was not the most honorable at that point but taking from an enemy to save your family while only you are at risk of the wrath of one of the most important people on the planet is not wholly expedient nor honorless.

[Gloom]

I didn't say that Kaladin couldn't lie. Kaladin is a surgebinder, not Honor, a splinter of Honor, or a spren of Honor. He is a human being. As a human being he can lie. He convinced Syl that bartering isn't lying, not that some lies are okay, but that there were times when bluffing was okay. I still doubt Syl would be capable of it. It still doesn't mean that lying is acceptable, let alone honorable. Syl was quite clear on her views about deception. I will grant that since Shallan was lying to aid others that her actions weren't despicable, but they don't meet the criteria of being honorable by any stretch as far as I'm concerned.

 

It wasn't Shallan lies that helped her regain Jasnahs trust, but her honesty. The strongest bonds are the bonds of trust, and trust is hard to regain once lost. Deception is the easiest way to break those bonds. If lying and deception are honorable, then Sadeas should be getting his honorspren any day now.

[hoser]

Kaladin told Syl that lying was okay another time when the truth would have been discouraging to the men, I believe.  I'm too lazy to look it up.  She seems to understand. 

Syl even volunteers to spy on the men of Bridge 4 when Kaladin has just said that they all have to trust each other.  That seems like borderline deception and Syl initiates it.

I think honor is complex, even on Roshar. 

[Gloom]

He looked back the way he'd come. Gaz hadn't left the alleyway yet. "Syl, you don't sleep do you?

"Sleep? A spren?"  She seemed amused by the concept.

"Would you watch over me at night?" he said. "Make sure Gaz doesn't sneak in and try something while I'm sleeping? He may try to have me killed."

 

Kaladin asked Syl here.

 

"Syl?" he finally prompted. Were you going to say something?"

"It seems I've heard men talk about times when there were no lies."

 

Kaladin sighed. "This would be a lot easier if I could just pin the duty changes on Gaz."

"That wouldn't be very honest", Syl said, affronted.

"Why do you care so much about honesty?"

"I just do."

"Oh?" Kaladin said, grunting as he moved back to his work. "And leading men to piles of dung? How honest is that?"

"That's different. It was a joke."

"I fail to see how..."

 

"I just want to experiment," he said. "If we can shift positions occasionally, It might be easier. Work different muscles." Syl frowned as she stood on the top of the bridge. SHe always frowned when Kaladin obscured the truth.

 

The three quotes above are pretty clear on her feelings on the matter.

 

"It'll be alright."

"You shouldn't lie."

"Sometimes it's all right to lie, Syl."

"And this is one of those times?"

He blinked, trying to ignore his wounds, the pressure in his head, trying to clear his mind. He failed on all counts. "Yes," he whispered.

"I think I understand."

 

She didn't tell him he was right, she said she understood.

 

Now, to maintain some brevity, I'm going to take snippets from the following section from chapter 55 An Emerald Broam

 

Skar folded his arms and leaned against the mossy wall. "This is stealing, you know."

"Yes," Kaladin said, watching Rock. "And I don't feel the least bit bad about it. Do you?"

Not at all," Skar said, grinning. "I figure once someone is trying to get you killed, all expectations of your loyalty are tossed to the storm. But if someone were to go to Gaz..."

"Maybe we should post a watch," Drehy said. "You know, make sure nobody sneaks off to talk to Gaz."

"We'll do no such thing," Kaladin said. "What are we going to do? Lock ourselves in the barrack, so suspicious of each other that we never get anything done?" He shook his head. "No. This is just one more danger. It is a real one, but we can't waste the energy spying on each other. So we keep on going."

"We're Bridge four," Kaladin said firmly. "We've faced death together. We have to trust each other. you can't run into battle wondering if your companions are going to switch sides suddenly." He met the eyes of each man in turn. "I trust you. All of you. We'll make it through this, and we'll do it together."

Syl still sat on Kaladin's shoulder. "You want me to watch the others? Make sure nobody does what Skar thinks they might?

 

I believe this was the quote you were refering to.

Kaladin didn't lie to his men. He wasn't being dishonest. Syl was helping him be cautious and trusting at the same time. Because it was Syls idea, Kaladin could remain true to his word.

[Moogle]

I believe this was the quote you were refering to.

Kaladin didn't lie to his men. He wasn't being dishonest. Syl was helping him be cautious and trusting at the same time. Because it was Syls idea, Kaladin could remain true to his word.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Being cautious (and okaying a suggestion to spy on people) is the exact opposite of trusting, pretty much. Kaladin pretty much directly 'lied' (or obscured the truth) when he said he trusted everyone and then said Syl could spy on the men. You left out the part after Syl asks the question:

 

"We're Bridge four," Kaladin said firmly. "We've faced death together. We have to trust each other. you can't run into battle wondering if your companions are going to switch sides suddenly." He met the eyes of each man in turn. "I trust you. All of you. We'll make it through this, and we'll do it together."

 

Syl still sat on Kaladin’s shoulder. “You want me to watch the others? Make sure nobody does what Skar thinks they might?” Kaladin hesitated, then nodded. Best to be safe. He just didn’t want the men to have to think that way.

 

'Best to be safe' is not a thought you have when you trust someone. While it may be arguable that Kaladin didn't tell a bald-faced lie, he was certainly expressing a level of trust he did not have. Definitely something Syl does not approve of, but something she suggested anyways. I'm of the opinion that she grows throughout the story, and that this passage here shows that she's found some pragmatism.

 

Oh, and I'm also not convinced honor is a very objective concept here on Roshar. The spren are influenced by how people think. If everybody thinks lying is okay and can be honorable, I could see the spren going along with that no problem. Kaladin's thoughts on lying may have finally changed her.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Moogle

[11thorderknight]

Honor is entirely subjective - that's the point. Brandon beats us over the head with this during Shallan's philosophy "lesson". One could argue that it's the central question of philosophy - what is good? Is it wrong to kill three people? Generally, yes. What if it's in self-defense? Generally, no. What if it's in self-defense, but you lured them into attacking you? What if you had the ability, at some risk to yourself, of disabling them non-lethally? See, it gets complicated.

 

My personal opinion is that Honor is like pornography - it's subjective and very difficult to define, but we all know it when we see it, and one person's version might be different from another's, with both being equally legitimate interpretations.

Edited September 12, 2013 by 11thorderknight

[Kurkistan]

I must disagree, knight. I would say that the 10 orders each have their own interpretation/expression of "honor", but it's relatively objective for each of them.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Gloom]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Being cautious (and okaying a suggestion to spy on people) is the exact opposite of trusting, pretty much. Kaladin pretty much directly 'lied' (or obscured the truth) when he said he trusted everyone and then said Syl could spy on the men. You left out the part after Syl asks the question:

 

 

'Best to be safe' is not a thought you have when you trust someone. While it may be arguable that Kaladin didn't tell a bald-faced lie, he was certainly expressing a level of trust he did not have. Definitely something Syl does not approve of, but something she suggested anyways. I'm of the opinion that she grows throughout the story, and that this passage here shows that she's found some pragmatism.

 

Oh, and I'm also not convinced honor is a very objective concept here on Roshar. The spren are influenced by how people think. If everybody thinks lying is okay and can be honorable, I could see the spren going along with that no problem. Kaladin's thoughts on lying may have finally changed her.

 

I think I'll reference Dalinar in regards to blind trust. We saw how well that works out.

 

Kaladin made a decision to trust the men of Bridge Four to prevent Bridge Four from tearing itself apart with suspicion. He was true to his word. Kaladin didn't turn around and ask Syl to watch the men. Only a fool would refuse Syls offer to do so though. Trust is independent of honor. Trust is given only to those who earn it individually or as a group. Kaladin knew he could trust Bridge Four on the field, but he had limited knowledge about how far they could be trusted beyond that. Syl's offer isn't a sign of deceit, but a offer of protection. Syl never promised to trust Bridge Four and wasn't mentioned in the discussion. It may be a fine point, but as you said, Syl is growing.

 

As far as Kaladin's comment "best be safe"

Kaladin does trust Bridge Four, but Kaladin has had his trust betrayed numerous times. His decision to trust Bridge Four was independent of Syl's offer, but Syl's offer created a loop hole that he could exploit. He wasn't watching them to ensure they remained honest. Kaladin kept his word.

[Shardlet]

Also, consider, there is more than Kaladin's life at stake here.  He has taken responsibilty for the lives of those who follow him.  Syl watching for a traitor protects them as much as it does Kaladin, perhaps more so.  If they kill some faceless bridgemen it is a lesson, but if they kill Kaladin, they have made a martyr.  It seems that Sadeas and Hashal see this which is why they try to get Kaladin killed in battle or in chasm duty.  That way their hands are 'clean' and they do not immortalize the memory of Kaladin.

[kari-no-sugata]

With the Spokane reading from the WoR prologue, we have a Jasnah POV for the night of Gavilar's assassination.  This thread is to discuss what we have learned and what hints we can find.  Here's what I noticed:

1. The reference to a creepy slave seems like it could well be Szeth, in which case we get some more backstory for him.  If true, it still doesn't explain how/why the Parshendi had him and why they thought they could entrust the assassination to him. 
2. Jasnah hiring assassins is a new side of her.  It seems to hint that she is not unwilling to use them as assassins, an interesting activity for a budding Radiant.  Does she develop her Radiant abilities later or is assassination compatible?
3. When considering the party, she thinks of her uncle's activities, but not her brother, mother or father.  While it could be a personal connection to one of many getting smashed at the party, it seems a bit odd.  When combined with her not-close interactions with her mother in tWoK, it suggests to me that there is a story that may predate her father's death. 
4. Shallan doesn't seem to have witnessed any spymaster activities, so either she stopped at some point or she has been hiding it from Shallan. 
5. If Jasnah can arrange for a maid to be released and another hired, Jasnah presumably already has a highly placed agent in her sister-in-law's entourage. 

 

Are some of these whiffs?  What else is there?

 

So, going back to the OP a bit...

 

The following occured to me on first reading of this prologue: to some degree, stuff in the proglue should be setting up the mood a bit for the rest of the story - while this does show a "new" side to Jasnah I dont think anyone was particularly surprised, so I dont think this was the main intent here. The big thing that occured to me is that this is more showing that assassination is a pretty "normal" activity for Aelethi - in book 1 we've mostly been seeing the male lighteyes fighting among each other, I'd expect this infighting to move more to the female side (or rather, into the shadows and behind the scenes). Aelethi society is pretty nasty and even with Dalinar becoming Highprince of War that's not going to change.

 

So, things like assassinations, spies, kidnappings, blackmail, bribary etc are all likely to be day-to-day concerns... and a whole new experience for Shallan.

[Gloom]

I wouldn't say that contracting assassins was a normal behavior even amongst the noble houses of Alethkar. Jasnah, on the other hand, isn't a member of an ordinary noble house in Alethkar. She is a member of the ruling house of Alethkar, and a princess of one of the ten princedoms. At that level of society, assassination may be more prevalent. Kidnappings, bribery, and blackmail may exist to some extent at that level of society, but thus far we haven't heard of any hostages, seen anyone on the take, or witnessed any bribery on a high level. Navani said the camps were becoming the real center of power for Alethkar, so I would suspect if such things were wide spread, we would be seeing signs of it. Assassination fills a very special role in a feudal society where power is not concentrated. The potential for one man standing in the way of policy, or even starting a war on his own is very real. The use of assassins to eliminate such a person may not be honorable, but it can very easily save thousands of lives and save face for the noble house who suffered the assassination if it is done carefully.

 

How can it save a House face to have a member of their family assassinated you ask?

 

The Alethi are an honorable people, or at least see themselves as such. If the person that inherits is unsuitable for the position, the honorable course is still to follow them. If someone removes that person before they become a serious liability to that house, then a more suitable candidate can be moved into the vacant position should one exist. Normally an assassination wouldn't occur just to save a house for self destruction of course, but the same principle still applies when a house starts to dabble in things that are considered politically dangerous and has a single member eliminated for the transgression. The message may be personal or it may be to the entire house, but it is clear to at least one person, don't mess with that, or don't provoke your neighbor in that foreign nation, or don't get involved with that shadowy organization, or even, this is the price you pay for smuggling illegal artifacts even if we can't actually catch you doing it.

 

Hostage taking on the other hand is generally use in lieu of assassination. It is used to promote cooperation between noble houses or for ransom of a noble if they are captured in combat. We would definitely see some signs if hostage taking was a common occurrence in Alethi society. Hostages taken when young were often treated as family, or squires and the practice was designed to encourage friendship between houses. Hostages taken in battle were used to gain monetary wealth and hurt the house that attacked you without creating a blood feud. I wouldn't be surprised if this were practiced in Roshar, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that it is practiced by the Alethi. Kidnapping on the other hand is a more clandestine undertaking generally used for the purposes of coercion on the short term and usually ends with the victims death. This may occur at some level of Alethi society, but it's a very risky thing to undertake. If a smaller house kidnaps a member of a larger house and the truth is discovered, then war is the inevitable result.

 

Bribery and blackmail are certain to exist at some level. I can see so many ways this could be used.

 

EDIT:

It occurs to me that this scene isn't just background information on Jasnah. Nor was it designed to provide Jasnah with a chance to recognize Szeth, since it appears she never did actually meet him. Introducing Weeper may be the point of the scene, I won't rule that out. Maybe she will come to the Shattered plains to report that a contract was taken out on someone in Jasnah's family. It also provides us with information that Jasnah has an assassin with a Shardblade poised to kill Elhokars wife should the need arise. Perhaps this will be relevant in and of itself. Perhaps Talns involvement will trigger something at the capital that forces Weeper to act.

 

Any one have any other IDEAS?

Edited September 30, 2013 by Windrunner
Please don't double post, just edit your original post. Thanks!

[ProfessorMLyon]

I agree that this was more of an introduction to Weeper and Jasnah's tendency to watch her family.

 

Probably totally baseless, but who says that Weeper is still with Elhokar's wife? That was five years ago and a lot has happened since then. I'm personally fond of the idea that Weeper is someone we have already met, some one close to Dalinar and his family (since Jasnah wants to keep tabs on her family). I'm partial to the idea that Danlan Morakotha isn't quite who she appears to be (again, no evidence to support this whatsoever.)

 

Even if Danlan/Weeper doesn't pan out, I like the idea that one of Jasnah's spies/assassins is lurking somewhere close.

Edited September 30, 2013 by ProfessorMLyon

[Gloom]

That's a good possibility as well. We don't know what Weeper has been up to over the past five years.

 

I'm not sure I would put Danlan as a high probability. A noble lineage isn't exactly easy to fake in a war camp full of nobles that are all sworn vassals. Danlan is likely to be a bit younger than I suspect Weeper would be, and Adolin is a poor choice for an assassin to choose should she wish to remain close to the family (as he seems to be something of a playboy who rarely maintains a relationship for more than a short time). Renarin would have been a better target for a relationship as he seems somewhat unpopular with the ladies and probably is a bit easier for a woman to manipulate should that be the goal.

 

The point that she may already be on the Shattered Plains is certainly worthy of consideration. Dalanar has several woman that read to him, but I'm not sure why Jasnah would wish to place an assassin with her immediate family. Her brothers wife, sure. She is an outsider who was married into the family. Her blood kin though? Unless she managed to pay Weeper enough to consider switching roles and becoming a secret spy/body guard for her uncle and immediate family that only reports to her. It's also possible that Weeper resides in Elhokars house hold on the Shattered Plains now.

 

I find it most likely that Weeper will contact Jasnah early in the book to inform her of an inquiry into contracting her to perform an assassination of either Elhokar or Dalinar. Possibly both. I certainly hope that we see a few assassination attempts. It's a perfect way to add a little action to some of the slower areas of a book.

[deddinty]

I didn't see this posted anywhere else (sorry if it is!), but this

 was posted on reddit, which includes the Jasnah prologue.  I'm not familiar with the previous versions enough to notice if there's any differences, but I'm sure some of you are.  

[Gloom]

Yes, definitely new information at the end of that reading.

[cem]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vTaERRlLTLRmN_c2KExKi5di6rPy6gEa3pzWI-Bksa0/edit?usp=sharing

 

I transcribed the prologue with additional info. There are parts I couldn't figure out. Let me know if you can correct those. Here's the source:

https://soundcloud.com/lazerwulf214/words-of-radiance-prologue

[Binnut]

Very interesting!
This added part suggests to me that Seth's blade actually could be a Honorblade.

The two people speaking are speaking of something they did long ago, and they are speaking of someone getting worse which the/some Heralds have become( Destroying art and so on). I'm convinced that they are heralds and that they talk about the blade Seth carries.

[Cheese Ninja]

Cool, thank you.
 

Words echoed in the hallway coming from up ahead. “I’m worried about Ash.”

“You’re worried about everything.”

Jasnah hesitated in the hallway.

“She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.”

“Shut up.”

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done is wrong. That creature carries my lord's own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He --.”

The two passed from the intersection of hallways ahead of Jasnah. They were ambassadors from the west, [including] the Azish man with the white birthmark on his cheek. Or was it a scar? The shorter of the two men, he could’ve been an Alethi, cut off when he noticed Jasnah. He let out a squeak, then hurried on his way. The Azish man, the one dressed in black and silver, stopped and looked her up and down. He frowned.

 

 

 

 

Oh, that's interesting, in case you guys don't remember those two from the Way of Kings Prologue:

 

Elhokar, the king’s son and heir, sat at the high table, ruling the feast in his father’s absence. He was in conversation with two men, a dark-skinned Azish man who had an odd patch of pale skin on his cheek and a thinner, Alethi-looking man who kept glancing over his shoulder.

 

 

 

 

As much as I hate it when every we turn every minor character we encounter into possible Herald-in-hiding candidates...these two are possible Heralds.  I might have to give up my super crackpot theory for Ishar being the drunk guy and Thaidakar.

 

"Ash" sounds like it could be a nickname for Shalash...  And we already know Shalash was in the palace, she just destroyed a statue of herself.  "That creature carries my lord's own Blade." Is Szeth's sword really Jezrien's Honorblade?  I've always been resistant to the theory that his sword is an Honorblade, since it goes counter to the "3 types of Shardblades we've seen in Way of Kings", but that's a pretty damning line.

 

Jasnah let out a deep sigh, then rose, trying to shrug off the weight she felt bearing her down. Her shadow didn’t rise quite quickly enough. Jasnah spun on it and narrowed her eyes. She could’ve sworn… And the other day, when she cast the shadow the wrong way like was recorded in [a name]’s Dialogues as a superstitious sign that someone had been cursed. Long days and fatigue? Or something else?

 

I'm blaming her Nahel Bond spren taking an early interest in her.  Compare it to the behavior Syl exhibited around Kaladin and the Cryptics around Shallan.  Minor theory: whatever Gavilar did that the Parshendi feared would awaken their old gods, also had the effect of making Nahel Bond spren active again for the first time since the Recreance.