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Can ANY radiant heal others wounds?


Juanaton

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It is well established that stormlight heals radiants, returning them to how they see themselves, and can even heal limbs severed by a shardblade.

It is also well established that a radiant can infuse others with stormlight - Kaladin sticks Lopin to the chasm wall by infusing him, Shallan infuses Pattern so that he can carry and maintain her illusions.

 

If instead of giving the stormlight a task when they infuse the other person, they simply stuffed a bunch of stormlight into them, could the infused person use that light to heal?

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I'm not sure if the can just "stuff stormlight into someone". As far as I know, Stormlight, though similar to Breath from Nathis, cannot be passed to someone without giving it some kind of intent (like stick Lopen to the wall). 

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Short answer is no, only those with the Surge of Regrowth can heal others. A little thing that might matter is the creation of squires where non Surgebinders seem to get the benefit of self-healing with Stormlight by bonding with a Radiant. However it doesn't seem like something Radiants can do on purpose and there's a Limit to the numbers of squires per Radiant differing per Order and possibly by knight as well.

Edited by Edgedancer
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Basically what Edgedancer said.

 

I don't think there'd be much point in noting the surge of regrowth as a distinct ability, if all the Knights radiant had the intrinsic ability to heal others with stormlight. I'm thinking the only exception would be in the case of certain Radiants being able to take on Squires. The orders seem to be fairly specialized in that regard, which I find more interesting.

 

I'm interested in seeing what Kaladin thinks of the progression surge. He's not a doctor, but he does value his surgical skills. I can't help but feel that having a fop like Renarin (or worse, an airhead like Lift!) having such "unearned" healing abilities might strike Kaladin as wrong. Figure he might also mention it strange that the trained surgeon didn't end up as one of those healing Radiants.

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It seems logical, but would render the healing surge less valuable.

The evidence I would cite is the knights in Dalinar's starfall vision. The Stoneward seemed to only do regrowth with the fabrial and described it as a limited resource.

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Shallan is able to stuff Pattern full of Stormlight because of their bond. It's noted that she, or he, has to be near an illusion to maintain it. If she could stuff Stormlight into a rock and leave it in the middle of an illusion, she presumably would.

 

I'll re-read the passage, but I don't think Kaladin stuffs Lopen full of Stormlight. As has been pointed out, it's a specific Lashing, and one that doesn't work that way. Basic or Reverse lashings seem to go inside of an object, but Full Lashings go on surfaces like paint. It's noted, I believe, that it was on Lopen's shirt, which was stuck to the wall, with Lopen hanging suspended in his shirt.

 

 

I'm interested in seeing what Kaladin thinks of the progression surge. He's not a doctor, but he does value his surgical skills. I can't help but feel that having a fop like Renarin (or worse, an airhead like Lift!) having such "unearned" healing abilities might strike Kaladin as wrong. Figure he might also mention it strange that the trained surgeon didn't end up as one of those healing Radiants.

 

This... doesn't seem at all like Kaladin to me. He's something of a snob in certain ways, but he's not a healing snob. He never once comments being annoyed at Dalinar's light-eyed surgeons. He likes healing and wants there to be more of it in the world. If literally everyone on Roshar had access to Regrowth, I imagine he'd be ecstatic. If Renarin saves the life of a wounded soldier, I cannot imagine Kaladin, as he's been portrayed, seeing that as anything other than a purely positive thing. It would be out of his character to resent that a "light-eyes" had been "allowed" to heal someone. I mean, he makes some grumbling about the apothecary charging a lot for antiseptic but he doesn't decide not to use the antiseptic.

 

I don't really see why you'd expect a doctor to get Regrowth. Kaladin was never trained to make things fly through the air or stick things to things, Jasnah did not apprentice to someone who manipulates the molecular structure of things. There's a degree of connection between Shallan's Lightweaving and her art, but as has been seen, it's actually almost backwards; a corollary would be if Lift saw Gawx and instinctively knew how to give him a tracheotomy.

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I have always wondered how much knowledge of the human body Radiants with the surge of Regrowth need in order to heal appropriately... Lift does not seem to do much, but it was peculiar to me... Surely a Radiant must voice out or think through was he is trying to accomplish while healing someone else... 

 

I have also wondered about the limitations of Regrowth. For instance, can it place bones who are misaligned and does the alignment need to be performed before the healing is done? Can it remove a piece of metal stuck into a wound?

 

I have never been able to find a good answer to those... but I hate to think the surge is all powerful thought the Lift chapter does imply it is...

 

I agree Kaladin would not resent Renarin for being able to heal. If anything, he'll tutor him.

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This is what I suspected. I got to wondering because of

Lopin's starting to heal his arm at the end of WoR

whether it could be externalized. And yes, I thought that might end up reducing the usefulness of the regrowth and thus not be the way it would go.

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I imagine it could be externalized, but it wouldn't be very useful. There seems to be a clear progression of increasing Stormlight efficiency from squire -> Radiant -> Radiant with more oaths. Someone who isn't even a squire might be able to hold Stormlight, but leak it almost instantly.

 

It does seem they can hold it somewhat - people on Roshar don't get sick as often because of all the Stormlight around.

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This... doesn't seem at all like Kaladin to me. He's something of a snob in certain ways, but he's not a healing snob. He never once comments being annoyed at Dalinar's light-eyed surgeons. He likes healing and wants there to be more of it in the world. If literally everyone on Roshar had access to Regrowth, I imagine he'd be ecstatic. If Renarin saves the life of a wounded soldier, I cannot imagine Kaladin, as he's been portrayed, seeing that as anything other than a purely positive thing. It would be out of his character to resent that a "light-eyes" had been "allowed" to heal someone. I mean, he makes some grumbling about the apothecary charging a lot for antiseptic but he doesn't decide not to use the antiseptic.

Wasn't really thinking so much resentment, as bafflement. And I suppose I had Lift in mind more. I think anyone in the medical profession would be stupefied that the likes of HER became the ultimate healer on Roshar.   :P

 

"His body is covered in 3rd degree burns, his femur has suffered a compound fracture, and there's a spear lodged in his spine!"

"Imma need three entire chickens for this!"

"...Stormfather, why do you mock us?"

I don't really see why you'd expect a doctor to get Regrowth. Kaladin was never trained to make things fly through the air or stick things to things, Jasnah did not apprentice to someone who manipulates the molecular structure of things. There's a degree of connection between Shallan's Lightweaving and her art, but as has been seen, it's actually almost backwards; a corollary would be if Lift saw Gawx and instinctively knew how to give him a tracheotomy.

Well to be fair, the combat applications of the Windrunner surges are immediately useful for combat. So a soldier ending up like that seems rather reasonable. I think it's makes sense that Kaladin ended up the way he did, but there is a bit of irony that someone with so much talent and inclination to heal became a windrunner*. I don't expect it to cause existential angst or anything, since it's not fundamentally any more odd than a surgeon becoming a soldier, but it's one of those things I'd expect to be commented on.

 

*Though I suppose in a way, it's better that trained healers don't become progression surgebinders. A surgeon can't use regrowth and the scalpel at the same time. So having a healing surge binder AND a surgeon to deal with many injuries is probably a better option. Especially if the stormlight supply is running low.

 

 

I have also wondered about the limitations of Regrowth. For instance, can it place bones who are misaligned and does the alignment need to be performed before the healing is done? Can it remove a piece of metal stuck into a wound?

 

This is a very good question actually. Kaladin DID break his legs kicking a shardbearer once, but the injuries weren't compound, so hypothetically they wouldn't have needed to have been reset to heal. 

 

Am interested if there are any particular restraints to regrowth though.

Edited by Numuhuku
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I imagine it could be externalized, but it wouldn't be very useful. There seems to be a clear progression of increasing Stormlight efficiency from squire -> Radiant -> Radiant with more oaths. Someone who isn't even a squire might be able to hold Stormlight, but leak it almost instantly.

 

It does seem they can hold it somewhat - people on Roshar don't get sick as often because of all the Stormlight around.

 

I had always assumed this was like how the listeners grow crops faster by putting infused Gemhearts amongst them. I don't believe the people are technically infusing with Stormlight, I think just being bathed in Stormlight encourages the growth of life. In plants, it makes them grow faster. In people, it slightly strengthens the immune system.

 

Just my two cents. The difference is splitting hairs at this point; does the Stormlight touch their skin and heal them, or do they technically Invest tiny, tiny amounts for brief moments and thereby heal? However, plants do not "inhale" the way humans do, so it's difficult to imagine them subconsciously choosing to Invest. I suspect it's just the light bath.

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I have also wondered about the limitations of Regrowth. For instance, can it place bones who are misaligned and does the alignment need to be performed before the healing is done? Can it remove a piece of metal stuck into a wound?

 

This isn't a clear, no way anyone can argue with this, example, but when Kaladin and Shallan fell into the chasm it was a pretty long fall. Chances are very good that there were some compound fractures involved, maybe (though probably not) an impalement or two. (I say probably not since I suspect they would have noticed the bloody stick laying adjacent to them when they woke up with no apparent reason for it to be bloody.) So I lean towards stormlight being able to reset bones at least.

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Well, the first time Kaladin just jumps into a chasm he breaks his legs and reknit them immediately.

I'm sure you're supposed to die without a proper landing :ph34r:

He also breaks his legs shattering shardplate in the duel by lashing himself.

Edited by natc
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Interesting discussion! Some thoughts:

 

1. Squires. Many speculate that Windrunner Squires are an extension of Kaladin’s bond with Syl. Syl is a piece of cognitive investiture attached to Kaladin’s Spirit Web. That bond enables his mind to project Physical Realm power. A Windrunner’s secondary Divine Attribute is Leadership. A leader projects his thoughts to his followers and compels them to action. A leader is his followers’ mind. As Syl is bonded to Kaladin’s mind, so are the Squires; through Kaladin’s mind, they are also bonded to Syl. That enables them to process Stormlight consistent with the strength of their own bond to Syl (and Kaladin). (A form of the “transitive law of bonding”?)

 

I further speculate that only those Orders that have similar Divine Attributes – ones that might establish a bond between Knight leaders and non-Knight followers – also have Squires. The Lightweavers, for example, do not have Squires because they’re artists who tend by nature to be solos. (Maybe they’ll have apprentices?) The cognitive bond between Radiant spren and their Knights will only create Squires if that Order’s Divine Attributes permit it

 

2. Self-Healing. Kurkistan and I have an ongoing discussion of self-healing versus healing others. It begins in the “Origin of the Cosmere” thread at this post and continues thereafter. At some point, we go PM with our discussion, but it resurfaces publicly here. Please note that I modified some of my ideas in the course of, and in response to the debate: Hegelian dialectic in action - a “thesis” drawing an “antithesis” response, culminating in the “synthesis” of a new idea!

 

The primary discussion point is how “unconscious” self-healing occurs. That question addresses whether self-healing originates in the Spiritual Realm or the Cognitive Realm. Kurkistan believes the former, I the latter.

 

I posit in the first cited post that the investiture self-healers like Surgebinders hold knows their own Spirit Webs and is already part of it. The same is true on Scadrial with f/gold - feruchemy only works on one’s own Spirit Web, transferring investiture corresponding to health attributes – elements of one’s own soul – into or out of the goldmind. Pewter has different mechanics than f/gold, but its healing powers also operate directly on a Thug’s own Spirit Web.Thus, investiture needed for self-healing conforms to its own knowledge of the target’s Spirit Web.

 

That is NOT true with healing others. As a minimum, Regrowth requires knowledge of the Spiritual Realm “form” of the particular organ or tissue that will be regrown. Nale says brain death is final and Regrowth can’t fix that. Every other organ has a Spiritual Realm form that Regrowth can reference and plug into the patient’s soul, the body’s blueprint.

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I had always assumed this was like how the listeners grow crops faster by putting infused Gemhearts amongst them. I don't believe the people are technically infusing with Stormlight, I think just being bathed in Stormlight encourages the growth of life. In plants, it makes them grow faster. In people, it slightly strengthens the immune system.

 

Just my two cents. The difference is splitting hairs at this point; does the Stormlight touch their skin and heal them, or do they technically Invest tiny, tiny amounts for brief moments and thereby heal? However, plants do not "inhale" the way humans do, so it's difficult to imagine them subconsciously choosing to Invest. I suspect it's just the light bath.

 

This is a good point. I have a few thoughts on plants, though:

  • Soulcasting might imply that all objects want Stormlight. It seems a little like 'bribing' the object to change. So a plant may subconsciously wish to Invest.
  • I don't know that human inhalation is necessary. As Brandon says, a heartbeat is not necessary to summon a Shardblade, it just seems to be the default if you have one. As a parallel to this, plants may have their own way of 'breathing' that will similarly take in Stormlight (which is not necessarily plants' version of respiration).

This isn't to say I disagree with your idea. I'm not altogether confident on these points.

 

@Confused: Apologies for taking forever to get a few replies with you. I'll get to them sometime, I swear!

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I think there's a big difference between Awakening (which requires extremely precise mental control) and something that Kaladin can do subconsciously, so I don't think the parrot argument is too strong. A parrot can't understand your words, so how can you make it have the right intention to make an object follow its will?

 

Edit: Though I suppose if you interpret him as saying that parrots cannot form any Intent at all, then it's a much stronger argument. But I'm not entirely sold on that. I would interpret it more as Awakening requiring more mental capacity than a dumb animal could manage (if you could even get it to think the right things at all!). The Intent required for Kaladin to breathe in Stormlight seems to be extremely minor, if he even needs any at all.

 

This brings up the question... could an animal instinctively burn metals if it were to become an Allomancer? I'm going to hesitantly guess 'yes'.

Edited by Moogle
I did spoilers, oops.
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I interpretted it as saying, "Can a Parrot do X?" "No. X requires Intent." Meaning, a parrot cannot provide Intent. I acknowledge there is another way to say it.

 

Regardless, I'm not personally sold on the idea that everyone Invests all the time from Stormlight, down to plants. Although... maybe? Are these the bonds of spren? When fearspren show up around someone, is that person "bonded" to them ever so slightly, allowing them to Invest just the tiniest bit of Stormlight? When Lifespren dance around a rockbud, does that allow the rockbud to Invest?

 

Okay. I still don't believe it, but I'm considering it more.

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Well to be fair, the combat applications of the Windrunner surges are immediately useful for combat. So a soldier ending up like that seems rather reasonable. I think it's makes sense that Kaladin ended up the way he did, but there is a bit of irony that someone with so much talent and inclination to heal became a windrunner*. I don't expect it to cause existential angst or anything, since it's not fundamentally any more odd than a surgeon becoming a soldier, but it's one of those things I'd expect to be commented on.

 

Actually, if we read back WoK, Kaladin had always wanted to be a soldier, which does not exclude him from having ability in surgery. His heart however has always been that of a soldier, much like Dalinar who had always wanted to one as well. In this optic, I do think it makes perfect sense for him to end up as a Windrunner.

 

...

 

Confused, I am not well versed in the different realms, but I am very interested in hearing about you and Kurkistan thoughts on how Regrowth works. Healing powers have always been interesting to me and I have been curious about it. I have especially been wondering how the process work to heal various possible injuries, if there is a limitation (we know everything can be healed except brain death, but is it taxing on the injured person... regrowth implies accelerated organic growth which requires resources, nutriments, strength which in turns imply limits other than feasibility) or if it can fail if the Radiant does not know what it is doing.... For instance, if a patient has a scrambled hands, does the Radiant need to know how the crushed bones looked like and are arranged in order to heal them appropriately?

 

These are the sorts of questions I have been interested in. So if your discussion with Kurkistan broached them, I'd love to hear about it. You can PM me if you don't want to take too much place on this thread.

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