Kalladin wood weapon against a Sharplate or Clasmfiend ?

[junior]

Provided Shards are of Cultivation and grown, it is possible that each Shard is linked with a specific spren. According to the theory that Satsuoni postulated, the Shards only exist until the spren linked to those Shards bonds with a new Radiant who grows a new set of Shards. Once a new set of Shards is created, the original set would crumble. Provided their are a finite number of spren capable of creating Radiant bonds, this would limit the number of Shards that can exist at any one time. It would also eliminate concerns about maintaining Radiant numbers as Shards were lost provided their is a limiting factor on the numbers that can be created. 

 

Which if true, begs the question - where are the spren linked to the currently known arms and armor?  And do the spren have an opinion when the arms that they're bonded with end up somewhere other than the armor that they're currently bonded with?

 

 

Though after thinking about it a bit more, I'm somewhat hesitant to follow this theory too far.  The scene in question has the Radiants basicly abandoning their arms and armor in a field.  That behavior seems a bit odd if the spren that they're bonded with is linked to the equipment.

[hoser]

All right, that's enough uniformed speculation for now.

No problem for me.  Dalinar disapproves of my speculation because it's not in uniform.  Sadeas disapproves of my speculation because it's not in fashion.  Most disapprove because it's naked and not Speedo-ready. 

 

I know, I know, a typo.  But funny to me.

 

Seriously, this line of speculation seems excellent.  It seems like it deserves it's own thread if someone wants to create an OP.  I remember the Recreance vision as involving 300 knights and two full orders, likely 150 of each. 

Though after thinking about it a bit more, I'm somewhat hesitant to follow this theory too far.  The scene in question has the Radiants basicly abandoning their arms and armor in a field.  That behavior seems a bit odd if the spren that they're bonded with is linked to the equipment.

This I can provide non-uniformed speculation about.  Dalinar talks about almost hearing screams.  I believe the Radiants are abandoning their oaths and the spren bonds could be breaking also. 

[Gloom]

Which if true, begs the question - where are the spren linked to the currently known arms and armor?  And do the spren have an opinion when the arms that they're bonded with end up somewhere other than the armor that they're currently bonded with?

 

 

Though after thinking about it a bit more, I'm somewhat hesitant to follow this theory too far.  The scene in question has the Radiants basicly abandoning their arms and armor in a field.  That behavior seems a bit odd if the spren that they're bonded with is linked to the equipment.

 

This I can provide non-uniformed speculation about.  Dalinar talks about almost hearing screams.  I believe the Radiants are abandoning their oaths and the spren bonds could be breaking also. 

 

I'll fearlessly speculate wildly and suggest that hoser is correct. The Shards were glowing when the Radiants arrived, and the glow faded as the Radiants abandoned their arms and their oaths. This would lead me to believe that the spren linked to the Shards also abandoned them to the whims of fate. This mass abandonment may have severely stressed the spren involved as well. This could be why the spren abandoned the process of bonding with humans for thousands of years, and only now, on the very cusp of a new Desolation have begun the bonding process again. The Shards themselves remained because no new Radiant was chosen as a replacement. Without a new Radiant to replace the old Radiant, the Shards endured like old bones.

 

Some additional wild and unsubstantiated speculation:

Syl may hate Dalinars Shards because subconsciously she sees them as corpses on display being used in ways that their previous inhabitants would have never allowed. The Shards may be the abandoned physical manifestation of bonding spren that in the normal course of things would have decayed as soon as a new Radiant was raised. To Syl it may be the same as you wearing her dead brothers skin and waving his arm around as a weapon. I don't believe any of the spren actually died mind you, but the principle is the same. The fact that Syl doesn't really understand yet why she finds the Dalinars Shards unsettling could possibly increase her dislike.

[hoser]

Some additional wild and unsubstantiated speculation:

Syl may hate Dalinars Shards because subconsciously she sees them as corpses on display being used in ways that their previous inhabitants would have never allowed. The Shards may be the abandoned physical manifestation of bonding spren that in the normal course of things would have decayed as soon as a new Radiant was raised. To Syl it may be the same as you wearing her dead brothers skin and waving his arm around as a weapon. I don't believe any of the spren actually died mind you, but the principle is the same. The fact that Syl doesn't really understand yet why she finds the Dalinars Shards unsettling could possibly increase her dislike.

I feel somewhat confused as Syl seems to have no problem with Dalinar wearing the armor, the part that could decay. 

Syl objects to the sword, which is apparently indestructible (although I wonder what would happen if you hit it with another shardblade right where the handle meets the blade). 

[Crysanja]

from the reading we assume that prashendi bond with spren to change form.

this would make the corpses of prashendi like a dead spren or a home of a spren.

 

sly seems not that much distressed with usesing thouse

 

so there is propably more to shards, which she dislikes

 

 

a shard plate seems to be a much lesser form of a shard then a blade

 

i would go as far as to say the shard plate is more like a halfshard then a blade.

 

the blade seems more or less indestructable, but the plate will suffer with just a few blows.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Crysanja

[junior]

I think the biggest problem that I have with the idea of the Spren being abandoned is this - Honorspren are presumably discerning enough to pick honorable individuals.  So we're expected to believe that 100 (or more) individuals bonded to honorspren decided to turn their backs on their bonded spren en masse?  Abandoning their post (i.e. the Betrayal) is bad enough.  But that's abandoning people that you don't really know.  They're also being asked to abandon a spren that they've presumably grown close to.  Can you imagine Kaladin, after having accepted Syl and the abilities that come from that acceptance, walking away and abandoning her?

 

Yes, there are times when Kaladin does threaten to abandon Syl in the book.  But those typically revolve around him either thinking Syl is withholding information, or being unsure about the changes she's instigating in him.

[Gloom]

Yet more wild speculation:

We don't really know enough about the Recreance to understand why the Radiants did what they did. I tend to think that they were being drug into the wars of nations, and they felt it was more honorable to give up what they stood for than to see it tarnished. The Radiants existed for a singular purpose given to them by the Heralds. To remain true to that purpose they may have felt they had no other choice but to disband and lay down their arms.

 

The former Radiants may not have been separated from their spren, but if the spren were bonded to both the Radiants and their arms, then they would have chosen, perhaps painfully, to remain with their bonded human rather than the bonded Shards.

[Shardlet]

Yet more wild speculation:

We don't really know enough about the Recreance to understand why the Radiants did what they did. I tend to think that they were being drug into the wars of nations, and they felt it was more honorable to give up what they stood for than to see it tarnished. The Radiants existed for a singular purpose given to them by the Heralds. To remain true to that purpose they may have felt they had no other choice but to disband and lay down their arms.

 

I agree with you on this, Gloom. 

[junior]

I tend to think that they were being drug into the wars of nations

 

*cough* "dragged" *cough*

 

I ordinarily wouldn't comment on something like this, but using the word "drug" adds an entirely different meaning to your sentence that I'm pretty sure you didn't intend.

 

[Gloom]

*cough* "dragged" *cough*

 

I ordinarily wouldn't comment on something like this, but using the word "drug" adds an entirely different meaning to your sentence that I'm pretty sure you didn't intend.

 

The word "drug" is correct. If you don't believe me, look at the German cognate to "drag," "tragen." The past tense is "trug."

If you look in the Oxford English Dictionary you'll see that there is a separate verb, "to drug," which is a synonym for "to drag." If nothing else, then the use of "drug" as the past tense of drag represents a dialectal fusion of two separate words that also has produced pairs like go-went (the original past tense of go was "goed," and it changed to "went" which was the past tense of "to wend," which then in turn changed to "wended" in the past tense) and be-was ("to be" and "to wes" were originally two separate verbs meaning different senses of "to be," which merged--the past tense of "wes" with some choice forms of "be").

Maybe before you blatantly judge the way others speak the language, i.e. technically more correctly than any of you since "drug" is the older, more archaic form, you should do a little research first. (jimmymcgee - 2/23/2010)

Not my words, but I agree with the gist of it. Dialect is regional, Drug is actually the older more established form of the word dragged and it is also a stronger verb. It's the language native speakers actually use that counts, not the language some professor in an ivory tower thinks the native speakers should use. The word drug is used in this form throughout much of the southern and northwestern regions of the US. I learned it from my parents and grew up in NJ so it appears to be spreading. I said what I meant to say, and I won't be drug into an argument about it.

[junior]

Not my words, but I agree with the gist of it. Dialect is regional, Drug is actually the older more established form of the word dragged and it is also a stronger verb. It's the language native speakers actually use that counts, not the language some professor in an ivory tower thinks the native speakers should use. The word drug is used in this form throughout much of the southern and northwestern regions of the US. I learned it from my parents and grew up in NJ so it appears to be spreading. I said what I meant to say, and I won't be drug into an argument about it.

 

Perhaps.  But my first read of your post had me wondering why you thought they might have been "chemically manipulated", if you catch my meaning.

 

[Gloom]

I feel somewhat confused as Syl seems to have no problem with Dalinar wearing the armor, the part that could decay. 

Syl objects to the sword, which is apparently indestructible (although I wonder what would happen if you hit it with another shardblade right where the handle meets the blade). 

At the time Sylphrena made that quote, she and Kaladin were discussing Dalinars decision to give the Blade to Sadeas. We don't really know how Syl feels about Shardplate, because it wasn't part of the discussion. Everything was focused on the Blade because of the circumstances in which is was forfeited. Shardplate may not have been mentioned because doing so would have been out of context to the discussion.

[hoser]

At the time Sylphrena made that quote, she and Kaladin were discussing Dalinars decision to give the Blade to Sadeas. We don't really know how Syl feels about Shardplate, because it wasn't part of the discussion. Everything was focused on the Blade because of the circumstances in which is was forfeited. Shardplate may not have been mentioned because doing so would have been out of context to the discussion.

 

I'm sorry Gloom, I don't see it.  They are discussing whether Dalinar could be trusted (the title of the chapter).  Syl bringing up her antipathy toward the sword was almost a non-sequitur.  If Syl felt the same way about the armor as the sword, she could have spoken of the sword and armor together just as easily.  She clearly feels strongly about the sword and only the sword.  The context of whether he can be trusted would make it more important to relate misgivings she had about the armor, since he still has that. 

 

From chapter 73:

 

"Dare I trust him?" he asked softly.

"He's a good man," Syl said. "I've watched him.  Despite that thing he carried."

"That thing?"

"The Shardblade."

"What do you care about it?"

"I don't know," she said, wrapping her arms around herself.  "It just feels wrong to me. I hate it.  I'm glad he got rid of it.  Makes him a better man"

[Gloom]

I may be completely wrong here, but the reason I believe this may be the case is because this is the very next scene we see Kaladin in after Dalinar trades the Blade for the bridgemen. I was actually looking for scenes with Syl so skipped the intervening chapters with Jasnah, Szeth, and Elohkar and went directly back to Kaladin. From what I understand, Brandon writes this way anyways. When you read those two sections back to back, the comment about the sword doesn't seem so out of place.

[hoser]

In the context of their conversation, if Syl hates the armor as much as the sword and for the same reason, I think she would speak differently. 

 

Alternate version

"Dare I trust him?" he asked softly.

"He's a good man," Syl said. "I've watched him.  Despite those things."

"Those things?"

"The Shardblade and Shardplate."

"What do you care about it?"

"I don't know," she said, wrapping her arms around herself.  "They just feel wrong to me. I hate them.  I'm glad he got rid of the blade.  Makes him a better man"

[Shardlet]

I'm inclined to agree with hoser on this.  To the reader of the chapters back-to-back, as you suggested Gloom, it may jive.  However, there has been a substantial amount of time that has passed in-world between the scenes.  If I recall correctly, Dalinar even apologizes for the long delay. 

[Miyabi]

I didn't read every post on this topic, so I'm sorry if it had already been mentioned.

There is mention, though I forget where, that Plate and Blade adapt to the users needs of them. Generally this just means the Plate changes to fit the person, and the Blade changes to a shape which better fist their fighting style.

Who's to say that the Blade would HAVE to take the form of a sword? It could become something spearlike.

I know you're going to say, "What about when was in Amaram's army."

Well at that time he didn't really accept them, therefore they were never really 'his.'

Also, there's the fact that Syl HATES the Plate and Blades, so I assume something like this won't happen until a Dawnshard is added to the mix.

[DocHoliday]

......>.>

....... <.<

Shardblade on a stick anyone?

lol but seriously would such a thing be entirely unfeasible? Shardblades are near weightless and are overly long, 6'- 8' if we discount Szeth's. Thats the length of most spears folks. is it theoretically possible to wield a Shardblade as a spear? or is the Blade as big a danger to the wielder as the foe? Yes some are ornate and have huge cross guards, or wide blades, But Elhokars has a thin blade., and Taln's little more than a long shiny spike.

Also do the Shardblades have to be swords in the longsword sense? could they be more along the lines of a glaive or naganata.Theres a weapon (cant think of the name right now) that is about 5' long and is 50% handle and 50% blade but wielded in a fashion reminiscent of both spear forms and sword forms, easily learned by someone familar with one or the other. Could be an alternative for Kaladin.

[Shardlet]

Theres a weapon (cant think of the name right now) that is about 5' long and is 50% handle and 50% blade but wielded in a fashion reminiscent of both spear forms and sword forms, easily learned by someone familar with one or the other. Could be an alternative for Kaladin.

 

Are you thinking of a falx?  If so, it is not really wielded like either a spear or a sword.

[DocHoliday]

It's along those same lines but no forward curve, much heavier, and close to about 5 or 6 feet in length. I want to say falchion but I know that's not right...

[Magnanimous Taz]

I always imagined him using something like a naginata or guandao, despite the obvious WoT similarity. Just learned tho, that the vikings had something that historians call a long bladed hewing spear... also first post!