Kalladin wood weapon against a Sharplate or Clasmfiend ?

[Natans]

OK, I know  is a bit silly but, after re-read the batlle against the parshendi in the tower I kind begin wonder if Kalladin, in the long run, would have any chance fighting only with a simple woody spear.

 

I know that he could put to shame most of regular troops (human or parshendi), but, to me, is clear that the real foe in the coming desolation will be too much to a simple woody spear handle, give that even against regular parshendi troops his spears broken down to easily. 

 

Think about, If Kaladin have to face a Clasmfiend type voidbringer (like sly sugested) or a thunderclast he will be in deep trouble, because, let be frank a simple woody spear is almost ineffective against their hard armor.

 

Against a shard plate the spear, how lack both damage potential and parry capacity in face a sharvblade, is likewise a bad weapon choice, because to to an full armored, no damaged, shardbear almost any spear attack is only a minor inconvenience.

 

Futher more in some point Kaladin ask do Dalinar "full right of requisition" to the quartermaster fact that made think that he, thinking along this line, would possible ask to a custom made and reforced spear, (steal made or fabrial enhanced, like the Jah Kaved halfshard if possible). 

 

Another possibilty that hit me is that he will use his surge abilities to, in someway, reforce his spear but, give the nature of his surge I think is unlikely.

 

So what waht you guys think? 

 

PS: Sorry for my bad english =)

[Claincy]

Futher more in some point Kaladin ask do Dalinar "full right of requisition" to the quartermaster fact that made think that he, thinking along this line, would possible ask to a custom made and reforced spear, (steal made or fabrial enhanced, like the Jah Kaved halfshard if possible). 

That idea I like. But at the same time I'm not sure how likely it is, wouldn't have the same *feel*. Anyway, I'm fairly certain he couldn't use either of his surges to buff his spear. Doesn't really fit with either of them.

 

One other thing to keep in mind is Szeth's last fight big fight in tWoK. He gets rid of his shardblade for most of the fight because he was more effective just manipulating surges. Naturally given that the opponents he was against were very unlike thunderclasts etc there is some difference there. However tossing boulders in to enemies could still be quite effective. Like it was against the first of the two shardbearers. So he would be far from helpless.

 

     As bodies crashed into the shardbearers, he knelt and placed his hand on a large stone in the wall before him, infusing it. He Lashed it time and time again in the direction of the Shardbearers. Once, twice, ten times, fifteen times. He kept pouring Stirmlight into it. It glowed brightly. Mortar cracked. Stone ground against stone.

     The red Shardbearer turned just as the massive, infused rock fell toward him, moving with twenty times the normal acceleration of a falling stone. It crashed into him, shattering his breastplate, spraying molten bits in all directions. The block hurled him across the room, crushing him against the far wall. He did not move.

[Crysanja]

he allready killed a shardbarer with just his basic weapons.

 

about better weapons i think two things are going to happen

-first they are currently not allowed for the common ppl. only lighteyes are allowed to carry swords - maybe this means most of metal weapons too.

-when the highprinces/king? realise that there is a desolation going, and see the foes, fight them, they might want to change the rules.

 

dalinar could also try to change the rules, but who knows

[Claincy]

Yeah, I know he did. But even Kaladin would have difficulty pulling off that move again =) Thing is that I'm not at all certain that thunderclasts have an equivalent weak spot for him to exploit.

 

Hmm, they may adjust those rules. But practically normal swords are just as useless against shardbearers (and probably thunderclasts etc). It also takes a lot of training to handle a weapon well and they probably won't have the time to retrain them all. Beyond that I think it is easier and faster to train a group of people to function to a reasonable degree as a team of spearmen than it is to train them all to be proficient swordsmen. Time, I expect, is going to be in very limited supply.

[The Count]

he allready killed a shardbarer with just his basic weapons.

 

True, but then again we have no idea how competent a fighter the man he killed was.

 

He certainly knew there were no Shardbearers in Amaram's army and was counting on his own invincibility.

 

Would the same be true if Kaladin with his wooden spear were fighting say... Adolin... one of the best fighters with a shardblade amoung the Alethi?

 

I am not so sure.

 

My own feeling is that Kal will eventually get a shard weapon. I have always felt that it would be truly awsome if he somehow got a ShardSpear... fingers crossed.

Edited August 9, 2013 by MadRand

[Claincy]

It would be cool =)

 

I currently subscribe to the theory that the one he killed was Shallan's brother. In which case he hadn't had shards very long, may not have had them before that mission. I agree that against someone like Adolin, who is possibly the best out of the Altehi at using blade and plate, well, it likely wouldn't go so well.

[Natans]

Yes, yes he killed one shardbear, buy it was more a lucky strike than anything else, even szeth how are, supposedly, an better fighter had a shard weapon to even the odds against the shardbears.

 

And, in my humble oppinion the infused rock trick Szeth used is impratical in most cases because is very stormlight demanding, have a limited applicability given the time need to prepare the attack and large dependence a massive rock to use was weapon.

 

And let be frank Kalladin is a spearmaster, so his abilitty must have be used to something so he needs a weapon that do not break after a few strikes. Fabrial spear is my best guess, Navani  could maybe provide the means to develop his weapon =)

Edited August 9, 2013 by Natans

[ampman]

I hope he gets the fabrial spear, or a "shard spear" if that exists. I think at some point, Kaladin will get at least plate, completing his transformation into a KR. Perhaps this will even be our way to see how shards are made?

P.S. I think Dalinar was better with plate and blade than Adolin, but that's irrelevant now.

[Claincy]

P.S. I think Dalinar was better with plate and blade than Adolin, but that's irrelevant now.

Yeah that's why I said Adolin in the present tense. Discounting Dalinar as he doesn't have them and is fairly unlikely to use them again. Personally though yes I reckon Dalinar was better though Adolin has the potential to be better than he ever was.

[Crysanja]

they can only make thouse halve-shards which are broken after a few hits.

its not known how difficult it is to transfere this to other items.

darkeye weapons seem not realy importand to make special weapons for.

 

so there is alot of research needed, and a request from Dalinar.

[Refero]

I'm guessing that Kal will probably get his hand on something like a Half-shard spear.

[Gloom]

I'm guessing that they rediscover how to grow Shards. It could even be something as simple as Syl remembering how to grow Shards. There are various theories about why she doesn't like Shards, but then she doesn't like killing either, and she encouraged Kaladin to attack the Parshendi to save Dalinar. My theory is that it is a combination of soul casting and surge binding, or It's cultivation based, and spren based. If a Shard is an eternal prison for spren trapped within, then this would explain why Syl hates them. That being said, Windrunners used Shards in the past.

 

There were around a thousand Knights Radiant at their height. Possibly more possibly less, but we also know that Shards existed in the bronze age. Kaladin will end up with a Shard, because Shards are the only weapon type that will be effective against Thunderclasts and Voidbringers. So I'm thinking either Kaladin learns the sword, or he grows a Shardspear.

[Dahak]

they can only make thouse halve-shards which are broken after a few hits.

 

And the greatbows like we see Sadeas use occasionally.

 

And the painknife.

 

I'm reasonably certain one of Kaladin's new circle of acquaintances is one of the worlds best fabrial engineers.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Dahak

[Natans]

And the greatbows like we see Sadeas use occasionally.

 

And the painknife.

 

I'm reasonably certain one of Kaladin's new circle of acquaintances is one of the worlds best fabrial engineers.

 

 

My exact thought =)

 

How know, maybe Kalladin will be the first user o some kind of "fabrialspear" that give the user parry capacity, against a sharblade, or at least enough resistence to damage a shardplate. One can only hope =)

[Crysanja]

there are problems here.

 

there is a huge status difference between lighteyes and darkeyes.

i would go so far as to say, its proper for a lighteyes to ignore darkeyes, like servents.

 

so what would happen when Dalinars household starts spending alot of spheres and work on thouse darkeyes?

like thouse darkeyes are importand.

 

Dalinar was allready in a difficult position with the high princes,

before he did this "crazy" action to give away a shardblade.

 

he didnt just give it away he gave it to his enemy/rival, and then for slaves!

 

 

this will put Dalinar and his house into an even more difficult position.

his high prince of war buisness and honorable behavior for everyone will not help at all.

 

now you all suggest special crafting/inventing of weapons for darkeye(slaves)?

 

if the research of Jasnah gets known in the warcamps, its not going to help at all either.

researching voidbringers? "like a crazy person" fairytailes!

 

how much can all thouse high-princes take before Dalinar has nothing left?

 

 

you might just say that the desolation might be the only thing, that can save Dalinar position within the camp.

[Gloom]

The figure was silent for a moment. Then he spoke in a clear, crisp voice. "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore." He turned to Dalinar, meeting his eyes. "The Knights radiant must stand again."

"I cannot comprehend how that can be done," Dalinar said softly. "But I will try."

 

I underlined the most relevant part of the passage for your convenience. It seems clear to me that Shards will be rediscovered, possibly in the ruins that the camps are situated on, or possibly they will rediscover how to make them, but it will be Shards. I think the evidence is pretty clear. I'd even say that considering the placement of this passage it will likely happen between the middle to end of WoR.

[Natans]

A shardspear, if such thing exists would be ideal.

 

Aside this, I don't know if a shardblade, after Kalladin's rejection of the ghostblood shardblade would be a good idea. To be frank his talent with a spear is too great to be put aside, and I don't see much sense in him learning to use a sword if he is so much cooler with the spear. =)

 

But this is just me =)

[Windrunner]

And the greatbows like we see Sadeas use occasionally.

And the painknife.

I'm reasonably certain one of Kaladin's new circle of acquaintances is one of the worlds best fabrial engineers.

Those two fabrials are not the same as the half-shards, though, they cannot stop a Shardblade(although, they are probaby all Augumenters). Navani has never even seen a half-shard to begin with, and as half-shards can only take the shape of a shield, they cannot use that fabrial technology to enhance a spear.

 

My exact thought =)

 

How know, maybe Kalladin will be the first user o some kind of "fabrialspear" that give the user parry capacity, against a sharblade, or at least enough resistence to damage a shardplate. One can only hope =)

There's something greater to the Shardplate and Shardblades, and I don't think any simple fabrial would be able to stand up to them for long. Even if the half-shard technology could be applied to a spear, it would break on the first hit, not terribly useful.

 

A shardspear, if such thing exists would be ideal.

 

Aside this, I don't know if a shardblade, after Kalladin's rejection of the ghostblood shardblade would be a good idea. To be frank his talent with a spear is too great to be put aside, and I don't see much sense in him learning to use a sword if he is so much cooler with the spear. =)

 

But this is just me =)

 

If someone could develop a Shardspear, or Shards period, I think it would have been done by now. There's a huge motivation and demand for Shards, and the most talented people in the world have had precious little luck in developing them. Probably Splinters of some sort are involved, in my opinion. But anyway, I doubt that there will be a Shardspear. If there were other types of Radiant weaponry, they would have been seen. Dalinar's vision showed a whole company of Radiants from two different Orders, all wielding Shardblades. I think it's far more likely that Blades are the only option, than it is that every single one of those men preferred fighting with a sword to any other weapon type.

 

I don't want to come across as too much of a buzzkill, but I just don't see it as being terribly likely. Kaladin isn't even going to be facing any Shardbearers in the future, so far as Dalinar knows. He and his men are going to be patrolling the warcamps and lands surrounding the Shattered Plains for the next year (or at least that's the plan) so Dalinar has no reason to believe Kaladin would face a Shardbearer or have need of any sort of special spear.

[Shardlet]

Those two fabrials are not the same as the half-shards, though, they cannot stop a Shardblade(although, they are probaby all Augumenters). Navani has never even seen a half-shard to begin with, and as half-shards can only take the shape of a shield, they cannot use that fabrial technology to enhance a spear.

If someone could develop a Shardspear, or Shards period, I think it would have been done by now. There's a huge motivation and demand for Shards, and the most talented people in the world have had precious little luck in developing them. Probably Splinters of some sort are involved, in my opinion. But anyway, I doubt that there will be a Shardspear. If there were other types of Radiant weaponry, they would have been seen. Dalinar's vision showed a whole company of Radiants from two different Orders, all wielding Shardblades. I think it's far more likely that Blades are the only option, than it is that every single one of those men preferred fighting with a sword to any other weapon type.

 

I think that the same premise for the half-shards could be applied to enhancing a spear.  Certainly it would not cut like a shardblade, but it could parry a shardblade at least for a time (which is infinitely longer than a regular spear could). 

 

I agree that splinters are involved in forming shardblades and shardplate.  I suspect this avenue will be reopened in future books (probably late in the first arc or early in the second).  While your reasoning is compelling, I am as yet unwilling to discount the possibility of an eventual shardspear.  Kaladin is just too much of a demon with the spear.  Although it would be pretty rockin' if he became (along with his surges) such a force to be reckoned with that he was a match for a skill surging shardbearer even though he only wielded his spear and a couple of knives.

[Windrunner]

The same exact type of fabrials used in half-shards will not work. (If that's not what you were saying, my apologies.)

“You ask why I returned,” Navani said, voice soft. “Well, I have three reasons. First, I wanted to bring word that the Vedens have perfected their ‘half-shards’ as they call them. They’re claiming the shields can stop blows from a Shardblade.”

Dalinar folded his arms before him on the table. He’d heard rumors of this, though he’d discounted them. Men were always claiming to be close to creating new Shards, yet the promises were never fulfilled. “Have you seen one?”

“No. But I have confirmation from someone I trust. She says they can only take the shape of a shield and don’t lend any of Plate’s other enhancements. But they can block a Shardblade.”

And, I want to reiterate again that if this hypothetical spear is as good as the very best fabrials, it will block a Shardblade once and be destroyed. So, not very useful in my own opinion.

[Gloom]

Kaladin learned to master the spear in a comparatively short period of time. He has never wielded any other weapon type except throwing knives that we know of. He appeared to be good enough with throwing knives that he could hit a man in the eye with barely a thought while in the midst of fighting with his spear. These are skills that should take years of practice. He attained mastery of his weapons and high rank in Amarams army in an extremely short period of time. He was a prodigy. He's even better now.

 

The question shouldn't be will he wield a Shardblade, the question should be will he be willing, and have the opportunity, to learn the sword, to master the blade, before he is forced to accept them in order to fight the final desolation. I don't doubt Kaladins ability to master a new weapon, I doubt his ability to accept the necessity.

 

Time will tell.

[Looter]

To be honest I would have to say that much like Szeth it is Kaladin that is a weapon not a shardblade, or spear, or stick, or anything else.  We even know that people in shardplate use other weapons, such as hammers, to fight different ways or even if they are lacking in a shard blade.  Much like the radiants having the ability to near instantly don and remove their helmets I think modern people don't know as much as they think they do about shard blades.

 

Besides can you imagine how awesome it would be to have a few dozen Windrunners dropping down onto a wave of enemies all at once using the force of their drop to propel spears all the way through enemies while emitting a huge Pressure wave of energy to blow back their opponents?  Talk about going from offensive to defensive in about a second with a morale crusher in there as a side benefit. 

 

Windrunners are the ultimate shock troops.  Fall into battle, Kill something in the front, Jump, Fall into battle, Kill something in the rear, Jump, Fall into battle, Kill something somewhere else.  An enemy would then have to try and look everywhere to make sure that some one is not performing a DFA (Death From Above; a battletech term,) on them.  Mix them with some solid wall front line guys and they would be nigh on unstoppable.

[nightwatcher]

 First, I wanted to bring word that the Vedens have perfected their ‘half-shards’ as they call them. They’re claiming the shields can stop blows from a Shardblade.”

Dalinar folded his arms before him on the table. He’d heard rumors of this, though he’d discounted them. Men were always claiming to be close to creating new Shards, yet the promises were never fulfilled. “Have you seen one?”

 Just a short while before TWoK took place, even the idea of creating a fabrial that could block a shardblade was deemed impossible. the quote should read "they can only take the shape of a shield, for now."

[junior]

If there were other types of Radiant weaponry, they would have been seen. Dalinar's vision showed a whole company of Radiants from two different Orders, all wielding Shardblades. I think it's far more likely that Blades are the only option, than it is that every single one of those men preferred fighting with a sword to any other weapon type.

 

Maybe, maybe not.  We've yet to see how the Radiants fought in a mass battle.  If they fought in formation even occasionally, then it would make sense that they'd all carry the same weapon - and it would be whichever weapon the culture advocated using.  If the ancestors of the Alethi were more egalitarian regarding who could carry a sword, then it would make sense that all of the Radiants would use swords.  A more restrictive view by the modern Alethi on who can carry swords might mean that it makes more sense for any low-born Radiants to carry shard weapons similar to what they're used to using - i.e. spears.

[Gloom]

Maybe, maybe not.  We've yet to see how the Radiants fought in a mass battle.  If they fought in formation even occasionally, then it would make sense that they'd all carry the same weapon - and it would be whichever weapon the culture advocated using.  If the ancestors of the Alethi were more egalitarian regarding who could carry a sword, then it would make sense that all of the Radiants would use swords.  A more restrictive view by the modern Alethi on who can carry swords might mean that it makes more sense for any low-born Radiants to carry shard weapons similar to what they're used to using - i.e. spears.

 

This would assume that they will attain the knowledge, time, and resources required to make new shards. I think Taln may shake this belief the Alethi have about eye color to its core before long.