Charting Hemalurgy

[Oudeis]

EDIT: The actual chart can be found here. As of this edit, it remains a work in progress. Ideally I'd like to find a way to let people call up any two (or several) tables they'd like and compare them; well, ideally, I'd like the capacity to make proper four-dimensional sortable tables so people can compare every statistic at once, but if I figure out more coding I'll go for the first thing.

 

With a bit of time on my hands, I've constructed a series of tables in Excel to map the metals of the Arts, and their effects in all three known systems. We obviously know the most about allomancy, and for the purposes of my chart we know nearly as much about feruchemy, but little about hemalurgy.

 

I don't believe the code of this site supports tables, but if someone can instruct me on how to make one, I beleive I'll be able to recreate my collated data.

 

I've come to nothing even close to a conclusion, but a few random ideas and hypotheses. And much conjecture, speculation, and occasional assumption.

 

One thing which may or may not end up meaning anything... are the quadrants in order? Is there an order to quadrants? By quadrants, I mean what's referred to in Allomancy as the Physical, Mental, Enhancement, and Temporal, which in feruchemy are called Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual and Hybrid. For ease across all three Arts, I am calling them, respectively, Quadrant 1, Quadrant 2, Quadrant 3, and Quadrant 4.

 

Each quadrant has one metal that steals a Feruchemical imbue. They are, in order, the internal pushing, the external pushing, the internal pushing, and the internal pulling.

 

In other words, internal, external, internal, internal

 

And: push, push, push pull.

 

Or, ABAA and AAAB.

 

We only know three of the quadrants for allomantic imbues. External push, internal push, internal pull.

 

BAA?

AAB?

 

So... time for my first assumption. Let's suppose that feruchemy is revealing to us a pattern. This pattern I call "one of these things is not like the other," meaning it will be 3 A's and a B. To fit this, we assume Allomantic imbues will finish as:

 

BAAA

AABA

 

So the last metal will be Internal Pushing; Electrum. It happens to be free already, no great coincidence since we currently only know what one of the four Q4 metals does, hemalurgically.

 

But what of the traits? There are as many human traits as metallic imbues combined. So should we look for a bigger, super-pattern? Or do the human traits divide somehow into two distinct patterns?

 

So. Keeping in mind that it's already an assumption that every quadrant will have one feruchemical imbue, one allomantic imbue, and two traits, we already know that in Quadrant 3, both currently-unknown metals are External, one Pushing, one Pulling.

 

Assuming that we're looking for two different "patterns of traits", we currently have all four from Quadrants 1 and 2 as Pulling, and evenly split within each Quadrant internal or external. And again, our only options for Q3 are both External, one Pushing, one Pulling.

 

So, one pattern has to be pulling, pulling, pulling, ??, and the other has to be pulling, pulling, pushing, ??. To match the "one of these things is not like the other" system, that means we assume pulling, pulling, pushing, pulling, and pulling, pulling, pulling, pushing.

 

We have two options for externality. The first two are either matched, or switched. That is, external external, internal internal, or external internal, internal external. Regardless, the third will always be external.

 

So, external external external ??, and internal internal external ??

 

OR external internal external ?? and internal external external ??

 

The first option would require both options be filled with internal metals... and we know Gold steals feruchemical Q4 imbues, so there are not two internal options.

 

The second one requires both to be external, and there are two external options. Incidentally, that would leave Electrum free... the metal I previously surmised would steal Q4 allomantic imbues.

 

So. In conclusion, I have failed to prove my assumption false. This obviously doesn't mean my assumption is true, merely that as far as we currently know, it's viable. In other words, I suspect that the following is true:

 

Four metals steal feruchemical imbues. Pewter, Brass, Duralumin, and Gold.

Four metals steal allomantic imbues. Steel, Bronze, Aluminum and Electrum.

Eight metals steal human traits. Tin, iron, copper, zinc, nicrosil, chromium, bendalloy and cadmium.

 

I have further thoughts, but I've rambled enough. This would all possibly make some sense if I knew how to build tables and charts on this site. Any thoughts? Anyone out there interested enough to hear my further thoughts on stealable human traits?

Edited August 25, 2015 by Oudeis

[Guest]

I'm confused.

Feruchemy doesn't have Push/Pulls, and Allomancy is always 2 Push/2 Pull per Quadrant.

[Oudeis]

I'm trying to sort the metals themselves. Tin and Steel are both in Feruchemy's "physical" quadrant; how do we tell them apart? Within allomancy, we know that Tin is Internal and Pulling, and Steel is External and Pushing. I should have made that clear earlier; when I talk about the metals themselves being internal or external, or pushing versus pulling, I'm referencing where they are in the placement of the metallic chart.

 

In other words, in feruchemy, copper and zinc store memory and mental speed. There's a commonality, which we might expect since they're both Cognitive metals. However, what about copper and gold? Is there any connection? They're in different quadrants, but they're the same member of each quadrant; within allomancy, they are each internal and pulling.

 

I am going to consider switching it to "base" or "alloy" and... I dunno. Pair a, pair b? Because the order is not an allomantic construct. The two Pulling metals will always be unalloyed elemental metals, and whether "internal and external" or not, each quadrant can be split in half to get two sets of "a base metal and its alloy".

 

Does that express my meaning more clearly?

[Guest]

Indeed it does, and Pure vs Alloy is the way to go IMO.

In Allomancy the Push/Pull definition is based on how Bronze detects it, not on how the particular ability functions (except Steel/Iron)

[Oudeis]

Indeed it does, and Pure vs Alloy is the way to go IMO.

In Allomancy the Push/Pull definition is based on how Bronze detects it, not on how the particular ability functions (except Steel/Iron)

 

... I disagree but that's irrelevant. How do I divide it up the other way? Metal Group 1 and Metal Group 2? i.e., how do I indicate the difference between tin-and-pewter, and iron-and-steel?

[Guest]

I think I know why you disagree, and I will admit I'm guilty of oversimplification, but in book Marsh states that the original Push-Pull definitions were based on Bronze not on effects.

E-A (Element-Alloy), or P-A (Pure-Alloy).

In either case, if you want a universal metal classification, switch Allomantic Pull-Push to E-A/P-A, since Pull-Push means the same thing.

[natc]

Well the terms probably were derived from steel and iron, I'd reckon. Then the bronzepulse correlations were noticed and the terminology possibly expanded to describe the other metal pulses.

[Oudeis]

Not why I disagree, and I also don't think you're portraying that scene accurately, but while I'd love to have this discussion in a relevant thread, for now I am going to try staying on-topic.

 

I have decided upon "A-B" for Alloy and Base. Then, rather than Internal/External, I'm calling all the metals which, in allomancy, are classified Internal as "Metal 1" and all the externals as "Metal 2". So 1A means the alloy of the first metal in the set, 2B means the base metal of the second pair. Just because that nicely makes it 1/2 and A/B.

 

Apart from semantics, any other thoughts/questions/concerns? Or can someone disabuse me of the notion that it is impossible to post a table here? Maybe I'll construct one on the Coppermind and link. Is that a thing that's possible? Is there a place on the Coppermind for research, speculation and theory?

[WeiryWriter]

Apart from semantics, any other thoughts/questions/concerns? Or can someone disabuse me of the notion that it is impossible to post a table here? Maybe I'll construct one on the Coppermind and link. Is that a thing that's possible? Is there a place on the Coppermind for research, speculation and theory?

 

You can totally use a User page for this (so like "http://coppermind.net/wiki/User:Oudeis/Hemalurgy_Chart").

[Oudeis]

Thank you! Kay, I have begun with the basic charts. The four basic charts are now up on that page. If you look through them, perhaps you will be able to get a better idea of what I am talking about.

 

I hope to add more charts as I go along, sorting the various abilities, attributes, and whatnot in various ways, trying to find patterns

[Witborn]

Looks good. Doesn't electrum allow you to project your future self to others, hence why it's called poor man's Atium? I am, admittedly, bad at remembering metals and their numerous effects, though, so I may have that incorrect.

[natc]

Internal metals aren't supposed to affect other people.

How would letting other people see your own future counter atium anyway? It'd just make things worse. Electrum let's you see your own future like gold does with your past.

[Witborn]

I guess I'm really confused by electrum then. How does showing me my future self affect someone else burning atium?

From HoA

"Elend burned electrum, giving himself a bubble of false atium images. Yomen hesitated immediately, looking confused."

It appears, in that quote, to be affecting other people, unless it only affects people burning atium. But that doesn't make it any less confusing to me.

[Voidus]

I guess I'm really confused by electrum then. How does showing me my future self affect someone else burning atium?

From HoA

"Elend burned electrum, giving himself a bubble of false atium images. Yomen hesitated immediately, looking confused."

It appears, in that quote, to be affecting other people, unless it only affects people burning atium. But that doesn't make it any less confusing to me.

It gives you visions of the future which changes what you'll do in the future, causing your Atium shadows to split just like other Atium burners.

[natc]

The same reason atium blocks atium.

If you know the future, you can change it. Which the atium burner reacts to, changing the future on his end, and then your shadow changes, and so on. It doesn't matter whose future you see as long as they're involved in the fight. If atium let's you see how they will kill you in the next 2 seconds, electrum will tell you how you will die.

Vin pulls off a similar trick without electrum. By looking at Zane who was burning atium to see how he counters her random move made without thinking, she figures out what she was about to do and changes her movements to avoid failure.

Edited August 25, 2015 by natc

[Witborn]

I have some things I disagree with but I don't want to hijack Oudeis' thread so I'm going to start another.

[Oudeis]

OKAY. I think I'm done.

 

Link in the OP works, too, but here it is if you want to click.

 

There comes a point, earlier than I would have liked, when I'm forced to acknowledge that there simply isn't enough data for pure analysis and I jump deep into speculation. In the end, I didn't come up with very much. I'm hoping when Shadows of Self comes out, if we get more data, or if someone else wants to look over it and find a connection I missed, it might actually provide a framework for further study.

[Guest]

Quick analysis of something that jumped out at me is that Hemalurgic Q1 and Q2 Alloys were building a pretty straight forward pattern, but then Q3 comes along and makes an absolute mess of it.

However, a pattern can be salvaged if we group Q1 and Q2 together, with Q3 and Q4 being a separate group (this rearrangement might create it's own set of problems, however.)  If we ignore future problems, my proposal would allow us to predict that Q4-M1-Alloy should be Q4 Allomancy.

 

(Anyone have a better shorthand for identifying locations? Q4M1Alloy, Q4M1Base seems kinda long)

 

Edit: Should have read the existing analysis... from skimming, I think you already spotted it

Edited September 18, 2015 by LabRat

[Oudeis]

Yeah... for my own annotations, I usually don't bother with the M, and I shorten Alloy and Base to A and B. So, Gold is Q3/1B. I guess I could formalize a way to shorten it more: Quadrant-(Metal)(Purity) so it would just be 3-1B. Good catch!

[Yata]

Wonderfull work Oudeis

I was updating my notes about the Metallic Arts (because when Shadow of Self will be released I can't no more visit the Mistborn section of the 17thshard and coppermind) and I found this little masterpiece .

 

After discarting a fascinating idea about the Hemalurgy (but 95% false). I build up another patter to the Art of Ruin.

 

It's a structure (not much) complex with:

 - 2 set of 8 Metal: Base and Higher. Inside both of them there contain two Human attribute(HA) and two different manifestations of investiture(MI). But every "set" has his own pattern.

         Base: UA-MI-UA-MI

         Higher: UA-UA-MI-MI

 

- Every "set" has two Quadrants (google traslate tell me that aren't the right word, ) that have the Manifestations of Investiture switched among them (there is just two MI therefore isn't much complex).

 

PS: We have any proof about the informations in the Ars Arcaum ? They are "safe" ?

Edited September 28, 2015 by Yata

[Oudeis]

Well, they have changed. There's information in the Well of Ascension Ars Arcanum, for example, contradicted by the Alloy of Law one. It is in-universe and therefore suspect, though I believe that is subjected to more rigor than most in-universe things we've read, and I personally consider it a level of canon above something like the in-universe Words of Radiance.

[Yata]

Well, they have changed. There's information in the Well of Ascension Ars Arcanum, for example, contradicted by the Alloy of Law one. It is in-universe and therefore suspect, though I believe that is subjected to more rigor than most in-universe things we've read, and I personally consider it a level of canon above something like the in-universe Words of Radiance.

I ask this because there are things that seem to me speculation of the Ars'Author like the Duralluminium Spike for Spiritual Feruchemy because before the death of Rashek the alloy was unknown, at the time of Ruin his Inquisitor had hard day to find Feruchemist, and they seem to use the Terrisman to obtain more usefull power (goldmind,steelmind and pewtermind) and after the Final Ascension the Hemalurgy is quite forgotten.

 

My point is that some "fact" are actually speculation of the Author and the Duralluminium Spike (like is in the Ars Arcanum) destroy a more "standard" pattern of the Hemalurgy.

 

Another think is that there are two errors (one to be honest) in the Feruchemy. For an error the brass and electrum has their effect switched in the book (but is now canon). But using the original "purpose" is maybe better to understand the "logic behind".

Edited April 13, 2016 by Yata

[Oudeis]

We don't know people didn't know of duralumin. They knew about aluminum, after all, and like Vin, could have intuited that there must be an alloy. Rashek, as a feruchemist, could have found the right alloy simply by touching it, not needing to try burning it and getting sick like Vin. Nor would he have been as restricted by her paucity of aluminum. It's possible that neither he nor anyone else ever discovered it, but I think that's unlikely.

[Yata]

Rashek knows for sure the duralluminium (he ascended after all) but I think that keep the metal's knowledge for himself (some one using the duralluminium could match him a little).

But it's unlikely that somebody else (outside of Scadrial) knows about it.

 

But of course I can't be sure.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Yata

[Ascendant Warrior]

I believe duralumin is one of the metals revealed in the caverns in HoA. Rashek knew about it, but suppressed widespread knowledge of it.