Why Did Vin Avoid Hoid?

[Wherethewindgoes]

This is something that I've never been able to figure out, and it doesn't seem as if there's ever going to be anything more about it in any future books, so I was wondering if anyone has any ideas as to why this is.

 

From Hero of Ages:

 

She picked an informant on the other side of the spectrum--a beggar named Hoid whom Cett claimed could be found in a particular square late at night...She soon located a figure that wasn't sleeping like the others, but sitting quietly in the light ashfall. Her ears picked out a faint sound. The man was humming to himself, as the instructions sad that he might be doing.

Vin hesitated.

She couldn't decide what it was, but something bothered her about the situation. It wasn't right. She didn't stop to think, she simply turned and jumped away.

 

And from http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#24:

 

Hoid appears in that same chapter, but Vin doesn't meet him. Something he does spooks her. She's just too darn observant for her own good.

 

Does Vin's apprehension have to do with his humming? Or maybe something to do with the fact that Kelsier met with Hoid in the first book?

 

Any ideas?

[Morsk]

Do you know about Hoid yet?

[Oh ok. I removed most of this post because it just filled space, and you already know.]

Edited July 17, 2013 by Morsk

[Wherethewindgoes]

Oh yes, I understand who Hoid is. I just thought that this was too specific of a thing to be addressed in a later book (since Vin's dead and Hoid probably didn't know why, or even that, she skipped over him), and it seemed from what Brandon said that it was something logical that could be guessed. Admittedly, the quote from the Q and A does seem to hint that there might be more going on that it seems...

 

If it was Ruin that stopped Vin, that might be addressed later because Hoid may have had some motive that Ruin disagreed with. However, Brandon said that it was "something he does" that spooked her, which implies that there was actually a logical reason for it, not just Ruin influencing her. And saying that she was too observant implies that the thing she noticed could be noticed by readers, as well as that it was something that was actually noticed.

 

It just seemed to me that there was something there that could potentially be figured out, and that it wouldn't ever be addressed in the books, but it's entirely possible that neither of those are true.

[Claincy]

I thought it was confirmed that it was actually Kelsier. Who apparently doesn't like Hoid very much. I don't have time to do a proper search for the quotes atm. Can someone else confirm/deny this?

[little wilson]

Confirmation. Also, I wasn't aware of this. It's what I get for not paying attention to the reddit Q&A.... :/

 

 

For those too lazy to click the link, pertinent information here:

Wait--are you implying Hoid and Kelsier would want to murder each other, or that they would team up to murder other people?

 

Brandon's response:

Hoid and Kelsier do not get along. At all.

[Windrunner]

Yeah, as little wilson's quote says, it's confirmed that Kel and Hoid don't like one another, but to the best of my knowledge, not that that's the reason that they did not meet.

[Wherethewindgoes]

And BS specifically said it was because of something Vin observed, which pretty much rules out any outside forces influencing her.

[Claincy]

Ah right. Thanks for the confirmation/clarification. Knew there was something about that but had forgotten whether it was confirmed or a theory. Another possibility: unless Hoid was using lightweaving at the time he would actually look subtly different than Scadrian natives. Being technically of a different race. Or perhaps he *was* using lightweaving to make him look like a Scadrian but she noticed something subtly wrong or different as a result of the lightweaving thanks to her tin and unusual allomantic strength and instincts.

 

She's just too darn observant for her own good.

 

That quote seems to support that hypothesis.

[Wherethewindgoes]

Another possibility: unless Hoid was using lightweaving at the time he would actually look subtly different than Scadrian natives. Being technically of a different race. Or perhaps he *was* using lightweaving to make him look like a Scadrian but she noticed something subtly wrong or different as a result of the lightweaving thanks to her tin and unusual allomantic strength and instincts.

 

Hmm. Although Hoid did disguise himself as a lot of other people with completely different appearances, so one would think he would be very skilled at it.

 

 

I decided to look through the forums and see if I could find anything more on this. Here someone asks Brandon this very question and he sort of dodges it. He did, however, say that Hoid "had been to the Well--getting there just before Vin--and had retrieved something from it." (Presumably Lerasium.) I wonder if this has anything to do with it? It seemed kind of unrelated to the question. I imagine Vin would have had more than just a bad feeling if he was burning metals (although if he ate Lerasium, this brings up an interesting question: Can Vin pierce the copperclouds of original Mistborn, or are they too strong?) It was also mentioned that there could possibly be a future book in which it's explained, so I suppose it may not have even been something that was guessable.

 

There's also this. One of the main ideas of that thread was that Hoid was using magic (possibly Lightweaving) and Vin could sort of sense it with her hemalurgically-enhanced bronze. Another possibility was that he was humming something that corresponded to the rhythms of an Allomantic pulsing. 

 

Along the lines of humming, someone suggested here that it's possible that Hoid was also one of the guards at Elend's army who was talking about the cold weather right before Vin went into the city, so Vin recognized his voice with tin-enhanced ears. 

 

It also occured to me that there doesn't seem to be any music mentioned anywhere except for at the noble's parties. So maybe Vin thought it was strange that a beggar was humming (or maybe she recognized the tune)?

 

Well, anyway, I suppose I'm just offering answers to my own question, but...yeah. Any speculation about those possibilities?

Edited July 17, 2013 by Wherethewindgoes

[Windrunner]

Just so you know, it has been confirmed that Hoid stole a bead of lerasium from the Well. So that part is no longer speculation, at least.

[Pechvarry]

Hey, at work so this is quick but I think I'm onto something.

Read the section of way of kings where kaladin meets Hoid. Note how he feels drawn in by the tune.

I think Hoid uses music to draw people in, like a siren. A flute for kaladin, whistling for Vin. Perhaps she was protected by copper, or sensed it with bronze (it's a Will: disbelieve effect).

[Claincy]

Interesting Idea. It would make some sense if copper blocked it but if that were the case she wouldn't have sensed it unless it was stronger than her copper and she felt it anyway. Bronze is more possible but I don't think that's the case.

 

That sounds like having a similar effect to what can be accomplished with emotional allomancy. Given that people can recognize when their emotions are being effected by allomancy. By that logic a sufficiently aware person (like Vin) could potentially recognize, perhaps not how they were being manipulated, but that there was *something* strange going on.

[aeromancer]

Kelsier hates Hoid? I suppose this is Kelsier 2.0 because the original Kelsier met Hoid looking for information.

 

Hoid is a Siren? That doesn't surprise me the least bit. He has a magician's bag of magic tricks. I do have a theory that most magic systems function similarly (still working on it, no questions please), so perhaps Breeze's lessons alerted Vin.

Edited July 18, 2013 by aeromancer

[Claincy]

Yeah Kelsier wouldn't have met Hoid before he used him as an informant that one time. I am guessing it was sometime while he was holding preservation's power that he discovered more about Hoid. Yeah, I reckon that breeze's instruction, combined with her own instincts would have been what alerted her.

[Windrunner]

Hoid is a Siren? That doesn't surprise me the least bit. He has a magician's bag of magic tricks. I do have a theory that most magic systems function similarly (still working on it, no questions please), so perhaps Breeze's lessons alerted Vin.

Not so much a question as a comment, Brandon has already confirmed that magic systems have underlying principles and certain types of magic work in similar ways, like Lightweaving on Yolen and Roshar, or Feruchemical gold and regrowth. I just wanted to make sure you knew this. If that wasn't your theory, by all means, carry on!

[Claincy]

Actually that's something I have been curious about. Have we got any confirmation on if lightweaving is similar on Roshar and Yolen, or the same?

(Similar could be just a different focus or a little different in operation.)

[Kurkistan]

The same basic operation:
 
Source

Some of the magic systems have been discovered on different planets, and some of them do work. A lot of them don't, but some of them do. It depends on your spiritual DNA, what people are able to do, and things like that. But, if you find a way to do illusion magic in one of my worlds it's going to work pretty much like Lightweaving, regardless of which planet you're on. If that makes sense.

[Windrunner]

This is the way I see it being. You know how Feruchemical healing regrows the body parts that are damaged? The Regrowth that the female Radiant uses does the same exact thing. Feruchemy still requires metal and the power comes from your body but the Regrowth comes from the fabrial and is powered by Stormlight. So the two branches of Lightweaving works in the same way but is probably accesses in a different way and powered by a different source.

[aeromancer]

Have you considered the similarities of Windrunning and Iron?

[Windrunner]

I was just giving a for-instance. There are many parallels, some of which people disagree about. I personally am not convinced of a connection between the two, although if there is one, it's between iron and a reverse lashing.

[Pechvarry]

Was it ever discovered who Hoid was in Well of Ascension?  I know Brandon says "a viewpoint character notices something strange about someone."  And that he was nearby when the truth of the Well was discussed.  But I've never actually heard if fans have figured out who he was talking about.

[happyman]

He was the "old man" leading the Terrismen back towards Luthadel when Elend ran into them, right after the Inquisitor's massacred them.

[Jaaaaaade]

Is Hoid a Terrisman? I've read here that some of his powers are feruchemy-based. He could be from Scadrial pre-ascension, but then isn't he probaby from Yolen?

[Isomere]

There are two popular speculations about how Hoid gained feruchemy: He may have learned to unlock it the natural way, or he could have stolen it with Hemalurgy. He would have needed to link up his investiture and identity to Ruin and Preservation to manage that feat. Since Hoid was created before the shattering, some theorize he has a piece of Adonalsium inside him with links to all 16 shards. It's clear that innate investiture isn't enough to use a magic system, and it seems snapping or a similar Identity Attunement is required for every form of magic. I have no idea what the requirement is for feruchemy, but it's not beyond reason that Hoid could have figured it out. 

[Meg]

 It's clear that innate investiture isn't enough to use a magic system, and it seems snapping or a similar Identity Attunement is required for every form of magic. I have no idea what the requirement is for feruchemy, but it's not beyond reason that Hoid could have figured it out. 

 

I might have misunderstood you here. You say, you think that one has to experience something like Snapping to be able to use feruchemical abilities? 

 

I don't think so. Sazed explained to Vin (MIstborn, Ch 16) that the Lord Ruler hated the Terris people because of the Keepers. I think that there wouldn't be a necessity for breeding programs and castration if Terris people would not be able to use Feruchemy by birth.