soyperson Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 26 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said: What, exactly, are you referring to? I know of the ship of Theseus, but what is the thing that is being replaced in your question? I think he means, like, Cognitively. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 15 hours ago, bleeder said: I think he means, like, Cognitively. I think, Cognitively, the identities of the individual pieces would be subsumed into the much more complex Identity of the ship. So therefore, the ship would remain the ship no matter how many repairs it needed. I suspect the Sleepless work on a similar principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 42 minutes ago, Landis963 said: I think, Cognitively, the identities of the individual pieces would be subsumed into the much more complex Identity of the ship. So therefore, the ship would remain the ship no matter how many repairs it needed. I suspect the Sleepless work on a similar principle. What if I replaced everything in the ship, part by part? How would that look to someone observing from Shadesmar? What if I built a second ship out of the parts of the first ship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Oversleep said: What if I replaced everything in the ship, part by part? How would that look to someone observing from Shadesmar? What if I built a second ship out of the parts of the first ship? at the very least I suspect they'd be abel to come up with a concrete answer to the problem, as opposed to here where it is pure philosophy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nashan’Elin Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Oversleep said: What if I replaced everything in the ship, part by part? How would that look to someone observing from Shadesmar? What if I built a second ship out of the parts of the first ship? Well, I expect the Identity of the ship would change, but not very much. If you built a second ship out of the original parts, it would be different, as it no longer is thought of or thinks of itself as part of the original ship. Edited February 8, 2017 by Nashan'Elin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald101 Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 In physics when we say that energy is conserved (cannot be created or destroyed) we (in order to make it simple to work with) limit that to the energy existing in a closed system. If given the scenario of on allomancer burning steel and pushing on a bit of metal, what would have to be included in the definition of "the system" in order for investiture to be conserved within that system? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 Investiture is conserved in the spiritual realm, because allomancers don't actually use the metal to push or pull. They use the metal as a hyperlink directly to the power of preservation (mostly in the spiritual realm, where location is meaningless) and preservation moves the object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, john203 said: Investiture is conserved in the spiritual realm, because allomancers don't actually use the metal to push or pull. They use the metal as a hyperlink directly to the power of preservation (mostly in the spiritual realm, where location is meaningless) and preservation moves the object. No, the investiture is actually investing the allomancer while they're burning the metal. The system would be comprised of Preservation, the allomancer, and an external target, if any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quizno43 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Does Vin have a god metal? or did she not hold the shard long enough to create a metal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 17 minutes ago, quizno43 said: Does Vin have a god metal? or did she not hold the shard long enough to create a metal? Vin wasn't technically a "new" shard, per se. And the magic system was unchanged by her Ascension, so I imagine that her Godmetal would still have been Lerasium, as she was still Preservation. She might've ended up renaming it, but I don't think that the metal would actually be different. If someone has a definite answer, feel free to correct me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quizno43 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 And I guess what I'm really getting at...is there more Lerasium/Vinium out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Did any of the original Scadrians (the first generation created by Ati and Leras) have Feruchemical abilities? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bcknight2 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Would a parshman transformed by the Everstorm have access to the old Listener rhythms? Or would they only be able to access the void/odium rhythms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 5 hours ago, Bcknight2 said: Would a parshman transformed by the Everstorm have access to the old Listener rhythms? Or would they only be able to access the void/odium rhythms? I'm pretty sure that they could still access the old Rhythms. Most of them anyway. Eshonai could still attune the Rhythm of Peace while in Stormform, although it sounded like screaming or somesuch. Additionally, Stormform had replacements for some of the Rhythms. Craving took the place of Anticipation, Ridicule for Amusement, and so on. On the other hand, Stormform brought entirely new Rhythms: Fury and Spite. So there may be some that are locked out while in certain forms. And if Odium took direct control, like Ruin did with Inquisitors, then they might be forced into certain Rhythms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald101 Posted February 25, 2017 Report Share Posted February 25, 2017 On 2/18/2017 at 3:58 PM, Spoolofwhool said: No, the investiture is actually investing the allomancer while they're burning the metal. The system would be comprised of Preservation, the allomancer, and an external target, if any. See, this is where I'm not sure. Certainly the allomancer is affecting a target, but does any of the investiture actually remain with that target after they stop affecting it? It seems logical to assume that it would have to be part of the system, but looking at it from a newtonian physics perspective, it doesn't seem like any realmatic "work" has been done on the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted February 26, 2017 Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 Could a Parshendi heal by changing forms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 Chronologically, did Hoid try to become an Elantrian before or after obtaining the bead of Lerasium? As a somewhat separate question: Is the reason Hoid couldn't become an Elantrian because he was trying to connect with the land spiritually instead of cognitively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 34 minutes ago, Darkness said: Chronologically, did Hoid try to become an Elantrian before or after obtaining the bead of Lerasium? As a somewhat separate question: Is the reason Hoid couldn't become an Elantrian because he was trying to connect with the land spiritually instead of cognitively? Elantris was definitely before Mistborn, i have in mind it's a few hundred years before. Quote CHAOS Could you tell us a chronology of the Shardworlds thus far? Like, did Warbreaker happen after Mistborn or before, things like that. Personally, I was under the impression you said Mistborn was a sequel to Elantris, but Mi'ch and Josh disagree. BRANDON SANDERSON He wasn't positive on where Warbreaker went, but Elantris is first and MB is after it. FOOTNOTE It is commonly believed that until Alloy of Law, the books were published in chronological order. Your question on the spiritual realm connection with his failure to become Elantrian is interesting though. I have no answer but I like that, he may not have realized the Dor is from the cognitive realm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 11 minutes ago, Extesian said: Elantris was definitely before Mistborn, i have in mind it's a few hundred years before. Bit further back than hundreds, but not thousands. I put my money on 1,100-1,400 but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Bit further back than hundreds, but not thousands. I put my money on 1,100-1,400 but that's just me. Where are you getting those numbers, if I may ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Landis963 said: Where are you getting those numbers, if I may ask? When he was asked if it was hundreds or thousands of years earlier, he started with "it's quite.." and then said "it's not thousands." I felt like "it's quite.." was him saying it's a long time ago(like not a few hundred), but then he said it isn't "thousands" plural. So I picked the small span of years that is not hundreds, but also not thousands, since it rounds down to 1K. Take it as you will, as I partially pulled the number out of a hat. Honest answer, it was convenient for me in this timeline related thread. And now it's kinda stuck in my head as a good number. Edited February 27, 2017 by The One Who Connects paragraph clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 15 hours ago, Extesian said: Your question on the spiritual realm connection with his failure to become Elantrian is interesting though. I have no answer but I like that, he may not have realized the Dor is from the cognitive realm. Impossible. To get to Sel in the first place he had to go through the Cognitive Realm. And Connections are Spiritual in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Oversleep said: Impossible. To get to Sel in the first place he had to go through the Cognitive Realm. And Connections are Spiritual in nature. Well, let's be fair here, he would have known about the Dor, but that doesn't mean he fully understood what Odium had done at the time. Hoid may be the most Realmatically aware person in the Cosmere, but that was early on, and we often ascribe too much knowledge to him. He's not all-knowing, not by a long shot. And if the method he was trying to use to become an Elantrian depended on modifying Spiritual Connections instead of linking him to the splinter of Devotion and/or Dominion in the Cognitive Realm that is behind AonDor, then it very well may have failed because what he was doing was going about it the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Jondesu said: Well, let's be fair here, he would have known about the Dor, but that doesn't mean he fully understood what Odium had done at the time. Hoid may be the most Realmatically aware person in the Cosmere, but that was early on, and we often ascribe too much knowledge to him. He's not all-knowing, not by a long shot. And if the method he was trying to use to become an Elantrian depended on modifying Spiritual Connections instead of linking him to the splinter of Devotion and/or Dominion in the Cognitive Realm that is behind AonDor, then it very well may have failed because what he was doing was going about it the wrong way. Indeed. The only WoB I've found on it is this. Quote BLIGHTSONG Was Hoid trying to become an Elantrian kind of in a way how Kelsier was able to connect to preservation to take up the shard? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, the thing about it is your getting Hoid before he knew as much as he did in Scadrial era, so what he was trying to do was completely ineffective and it couldn't have worked. BLIGHTSONG Doesn't it get weaker the farther away you are, so it wouldn't help at all. BRANDON SANDERSON mhmm. QUESTION Well we have an example of an Elantrian on Roshar, so. BRANDON SANDERSON Yes we have an Elantrian on Roshar, but we don't see him use any powers, and his skin is dark on Roshar rather than glowing. That is something to be aware of. I'm not sure by any means the theory is right but I haven't seen a better one and @Jondesu's explanation combined with that WoB is why I thought it's worth considering. As Brandon said Hoid simply was not as Cosmere-aware at the time and probably did not know the unusual nature of the Dor then. But as always I'm keen to be shown why it's wrong. And do we know Hoid had to get there through the Cognitive? Maybe he can Elsecall (or comparable mechanism from a different system)? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted February 27, 2017 Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Extesian said: Maybe he can Elsecall (or comparable mechanism from a different system)? If he could, he would have done it instead of going through the Well Of Ascension which was getting more and more dangerous at the time. And while getting off Sel he had gone through the perpendicularity, so... Edited February 27, 2017 by Oversleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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