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WindrunnerRadiant

Harmony and Odium

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So, as we know, Harmony is travelling to Greater Roshar. There has been a lot of speculation on what this means, particularly when it comes to Odium and what would happen if they come Shard to Shard. Now, myself included, many of us have been assuming that if this happens, Harmony will destroy Odium, as he would be stronger (2>1). However, I have been thinking about that. Harmony may not be nearly as strong as we assume. We know a large chunk of Preservation's power is within the sentient species on Scadrial and I would assume that the Pits are still in existence to balance that. Therefor, Harmony doesn't have his full power.

 

Because of this, I am much more unsure about what would happen between Harmony and Odium in direct conflict. We do know that Odium fears Harmony, so I would assume Harmony is still more powerful, but not by nearly as much as I once thought. 

 

Let me know what your thoughts are on this.

 

EDIT: I had some misgivings about a few theories. Harmony is not travelling to Roshar. I deeply apologize.

Edited by WindrunnerRadiant
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What gives you the impression that Harmony is traveling to Greater Roshar?  The impression I've received is that he is unlikely to leave Scadrial any time soon.

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Harmony is too invested in Scadrial to leave without serious ramifications 

Edited by ParadoxSpren
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Does leaving Scadrial necessarily mean that he has to withdraw al his power from the world? 

 

We know the difference between major and minor Shardworlds is the presence of a Shardholder... but what is the difference between Harmony leaving Scadrial and Odium Splintering other Shards? When a Shard is splintered, the power as a whole can't influence the world... can Harmony not leave Scadrial and leave influence there?

Edited by Shadowspren
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I have no idea where harmony travelling to Roshar came from. He was obviously still in Scadrial in The Alloy of Law, which Brandon Sanderson has stated happens at roughly the same time as The Way of Kings. (I can't find the quote, but it's somewhere.) I think that Harmony would probably have more raw power than Odium, but certainly not by a 2:1 scale. Given that Ruin apparently has very poor future-seeing abilities, and, according to the Letter, Ati was not originally as dangerous as Rayse, I think that Odium would be far more powerful than Ruin. However, Preservation has very powerful future-seeing powers, since preservation is a long-term thing. Preservation would have less raw power than Ruin since some of it is in the humans of Scadrial. However, even with that, I think that Harmony would have roughly the same future-seeing power as Odium. So, I imagine in a plain Shard-on-Shard cage match, Harmony would probably win. However, I think that Rayse is a far more cunning and dangerous Shardholder than Sazed. He also has far more experience in wielding the power of his Shard than Sazed. I think that it would probably be a very pitched battle, probably decided by the humans and other assorted minions. Also, if any other Shards intervened, which, given events up 'til now, seems unlikely, the tide of the battle would likely change, which I'm only adding since, assuming this hypothetical conflict would happen on Roshar, Cultivation, and possibly some Nightwatcher-calibre spren might join the battle. 

Edited by Evil_Reptile
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I think that Harmony might be less experienced than Odium, but more creative in his use of his Shardic powers. The narrative made a point of mentioning how Sazed used his expanded Cognitive aspect to perfectly store the contents of his copperminds, and how the overlap of that knowledge allowed him to remake Scadrial. I think this is a Chekhov's Gun anf that Harmony's knowledge will play a big role in his interactions with the other Shards, including Odium.

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I think that in Shardic duels, Intent is more important than raw power. The key to beating a shard is to figure out a way to "trap" it in such a way that you can use your power in line with your Intent while they cannot use their power against you without going against their Intent. My guess is that Odium's kills have been achieved through these sorts of carefully planned traps.

Harmony has much more raw power than Odium, but Odium's key advantage is that he is able to use his full power in line with his intent when he focuses on destroying that which he hates. The battle would be decided by circumstance and Intent, not by who has the most power.

Edited by Authweight
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Hrm, yet we have WoB that Odium fears Harmony, implying it's because he is twice as powerful. It probably has some effect. Search Theoryland for Odium, and several other quotes imply that it's a matter partially of raw power, and that it's very taxing.

 

And recall, Vin used up literally all of the available power of Preservation for the express purpose of ruining something, without having a firm plan in mind for how it would preserve anything, and while her mind died, the power of preservation itself was full and perfectly fine moments later when Sazed Ascended. It's hard to imagine something more opposed to the "Intent" of Preservation, and yet the Shard was fine.

 

Moreover, even in your example, Harmony is perfectly set to fight another Shard. He has power as strong as any single Shard for the sole purpose of protecting himself from any and all direct attacks, and power as strong as any single Shard for the sole purpose of destroying things and bringing them to an end. Is Odium's intent to destroy what he hates, or just to hate it?

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Not sure if this was said previously, but an interesting thought...Oudeis you set off this thinking with your above post...

 

We have an example of Preservation and Ruin working together previously in the creation of humans. Ruin temporarily going against his "intent" because in due time his intent would be fulfilled.

 

The key to this is the temporary selection to create instead of ruin, with the knowledge that one can ruin at another time.

 

Could Harmony get both intents to make another compromise? Preservation to compromise to "ruin" Odium, and Ruin to compromise to "preserve" life. Both would be able to satisfy an intent at the same time as compromising to the others intent....it's kind of harmonious?

 

 

 

And is this just a matter of Sazed getting to this point?

Edited by Tri
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I think Odium fears Harmony more because it is a composite of two Shards than anything else. That seems to be why he goes about shattering shards to begin with: so that one can not hold more than one Shard. 

 

I think in the natural course of events, the two would avoid each other. Harmony because leaving Scadrial would be difficult and possibly greatly weakened if he left Investiture behind; Odium because he'd probably want to make sure no other Shards combine before he even thinks about Harmony.

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Not sure if this was said previously, but an interesting thought...Oudeis you set off this thinking with your above post...

 

We have an example of Preservation and Ruin working together previously in the creation of humans. Ruin temporarily going against his "intent" because in due time his intent would be fulfilled.

 

The key to this is the temporary selection to create instead of ruin, with the knowledge that one can ruin at another time.

 

Could Harmony get both intents to make another compromise? Preservation to compromise to "ruin" Odium, and Ruin to compromise to "preserve" life. Both would be able to satisfy an intent at the same time as compromising to the others intent....it's kind of harmonious?

 

 

 

And is this just a matter of Sazed getting to this point?

 

I believe this is possible, depending on how you perceive it. After all, Intent is a major factor in anything Cosmere or Shardlike, as well as the underlying component in the magic systems. So, if you could interpret and use/satisfy both Intents as something to the extent 'Preserve my existence and in turn, Ruin my enemy's' or something like that, it should balance out. After all, whilst the Intents may initially be contradictory, it isn't hard to find an equilibrium between them by using both in moderation/tandem.

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I'm very confused as to where this information that Harmony is heading to Greater Roshar comes from. Brandon has implied the opposite in several interviews, that Harmony is currently more concerned with events in Scadrial.

 

Do you have some sort of reference for that? Or is it just from Odium's fear of Harmony? Because Odium being afraid of Harmony coming from him does not mean Harmony has any intention to do so.

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EDIT: I had some misgivings about a few theories. Harmony is not travelling to Roshar. I deeply apologize.

 

So doesn't that basically invalidate this whole thread? 

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Everyone keeps talking about how because of the stuff in Vins earth (forgot the name) that harmony has limited shard power. So does odium not have an earth? Or is his the dragon steel universe? Has he not done anything with this power? We know he's killed shards so he cold be weak and regrow ing. Maybe that's why he's scared.

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The "Harmony's limited power" is about that seems that on Scadrial (Mistborn planet) Ruin and Preservation invested a lot to create the life, much more to create Sentience life and another part of power to balance the two powers.

Then if you want also the theorys: Some  people (And I am with they) think that R&P actually created the whole Scadrial as a planet from nothing or something quite similar to "nothing".

 

Stormlight Archive Spoiler

Odium is on Braize at the moment

Edited by Yata
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