Defining 'focus'

[WeiryWriter]

Ok. It seems I have been proved wrong on the Focus in all Three Realms, though this opens the doors for what constitutes a Focus (a full definition) as well as whether 'something' has to be present in all Three Realms. For example, even if Mental Commands are given through a Cognitive Focus as opposed to Physical, is there something Physical that then arises because of this.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear, all Commands are Cognitive, not just Mental Commands.

Edited July 1, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Satsuoni]

A note about soulcasting:

STORMATLAS

I finally got to ask a question about the Stormlight Archive that Windrunner17 and Chaos helped me with which was:

"Why Can Kaladin Surgebind with any gem type but Jasnah and Shallan need specific types?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

A lot of that will be explained as the series comes along. It is really the difference between soul casting and the other forms of Surgebinding. Its more a quirk of Soulcasting than a it is something that is different about about Kaladin. So you've kind of got it reversed a little bit though, Soulcasting has this additional restriction that the other ones don't.

 

So apparently, most Surgebindings do not rely on gem type.

Another thing to note is that, as far as I am aware, all metals on Scadrial are foci, including nonallomantic ones. The allomantic ones are just the ones that happen to be aligned to human sDNA. And they are always power, in a sense that they can be sensed as such.

 

For me, focus is, similarly to the above, a gateway, something that happens to have (or give) the "sideways" Realms connection, for example from Physical to Spiritual. It may or may not also shape the power, or help shape it. In case of Vin burning Mists, for example, she didn't use any metals, because the power was already in Physical. Note that her body still limited the power into Allomancy for a while, until the pressure broke the limits down (and apparently disintegrated the body, or sent it into Spiritual). So for me, metals always bleed power - this is what makes them visible to Ironsight, what allows Allomancer to sense them and what Aluminum destroys.

Similarly, gems allow Stormlight to leak into physical during the point in Hiighstorm when the "pressure" is high enough, and the stormlight can then be used at will, except in the cases where it has to be either indirectly reshaped (spren+gem) or pushed into another realm again (Soulcasting) (not sure about these parts)

A command, then, would allow the Breath to temporarily go through Physical,probably draining the color in the process: 

It flowed out of him, puffing into the air, translucent yet radiant, like the color of oil on water in the sun.

And then form a temporary "soul" for object as the command is completed:

Vasher leaned down-imagining what he wanted the figure to do-and completed the final step of the process as he gave the Command.

 

Aons work as metals above A broken Aon could still work, still form conduit (though it has to be close enough to even form it), and then get stuck, as was the case with Reod, or break down as the power flows the wrong way.

 

Strictly an opinion, as usual...

[skaa]

The Focus could basically be anything, any entity from any of the realms, whether magical (glowy Aons in the air) or not (metals). The important thing is that they have attributes that can be mapped to a specific form of Investiture (what I call its Intent).

 

When a Shard grants Investiture to a person, the person's soul becomes capable of non-standard/supernatural Realmatic interactions (e.g. Person A changing Person B's Cognitive attributes without passing through Person B's Physical aspect, etc.). I think the reason why Foci are used is because the Shards, or even the Shardworlds¹, want those non-standard interactions to be controlled, to be limited to consistent rules somehow, and not reliant on the ever-changing whims of humans. So the Shards include a system of interpreting Foci when granting Investiture to people.

 

 

--

¹The planets themselves (or at least, their souls), who have a say on what kinds of Investiture happen on them, according to WoB. (I can't find the quote right now, though. Anyone? Phantom?)

Edited July 2, 2013 by skaa

[Odium's_Shard]

I agree with Satsuoni on a few points. It would be interesting to think that metals are a constant opening, again via RAM style Spiritual memory slots, to the Power of Preservation. However this would ask the question as to how this energy is then passed back into the loop, but that is the same with any usage of Allomany (I presume then that Power can permeate 'back' through a metal after completing its effect, if Power can always permeate out through one).

 

About the subconscious thing, I always think there is an Intent. And Intent to save yourself, and Intent to save the world, and Intent to stop a wild Inquisitor killing your beloved husband, to save your squad from a hail of arrows. Whether or not you know what you are grasping at, you are still grasping for something. You need it. And from Wheel of Time, "the key to finding something is need". In respect to subconsciousness, do we really know where the mind flees at that point, or that it is not still active Cognitively but that whatever sent it unconscious is a severing of the link with the Physical body that can be rekindled through the Spiritual bridge to it.

 

I feel that the foci, as Satsuoni pointed out, are always gateways to Power. It is when humans/Surgebinders/Awakeners/Allomancers, take hold of this Power gateway, and have the right to do so (something to do with holding it in both the Physical and Spiritual sense to fully channel through it, this requires sDNA), that the Power is put to a use. 

 

You saw Power still bleeds through broken Aons. It just has not express purpose and very little gets through, so the Aon bursts without event, because it is poorly aligned with the Power of the Shard.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I believe that mistings normally can't see reserves other than their base metal, though mistborn can see reserves even for nonallomantic fatal stuff... just weird. Feruchemists can feel an affinity for the metals they can use... dunno if they can try to store in nonferuchemic metals. Probably worth asking.

Actually, they pretty much would need to, otherwise sazed would have been a huge jerk at the beginning of MB2, since vin got really sick trying bad aluminum alloys.

[Odium's_Shard]

Perhaps he cannot feel for Allomantic metals he is not familiar with, or those metals were not readily available for him to know, otherwise he would have suggested there were more than 10 metals. 

 

But as to the point about Power sight. Mistings you say only see their metal as a reserve... but surely a Lurcher and a Coinshot still see ALL metals as points of Power. Most likely, when they're in the body, only avenues that line up with the correct sDNA (i.e. your metal due to the limitation of your sDNA) are available Cognitively (presumably thats how they 'feel' metals inside of them) to draw through. For Mistborn I presume their sDNA says something like 'can draw Power of Preservation through any focus', and since ALL metals, even non-Allomantic metals, are foci on Scadrial, or at least for the Metallic Arts, then all metals line up with the sDNA permissions, it just happens that they link to 'nothing' in the actual Power source.

 

As to why this would make them sick...? Maybe there is energy in the Spiritual Realm that when pulled through (instead of pure Power of Creation) pollutes the body? This is something that needs clarifying. Along with the 'if Mistborn can sense all metals and attempt to use them, can full Feruchemists sense all metals and try to store in them? What is the result?' question.

 

Odium's_Shard

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Elend gives a mistfallen dude a mistborn vial in HoA.  Dude immediately identifies and uses a single metal.  If he could see all of them, he'd have had a 7/8ths chance of getting really sick from burning the wrong metal.

 

Also, Vin seeing multiple reserves is taken by Kelsier as evidence of being a mistborn.

[Odium's_Shard]

No no I don't argue that Mistings can see more than one metal, but that the reason they can only see the one is to do with the Cognitive recognition of the alignment of Physical Foci and Spiritual permissions allowing some kind of actions (Power draw).

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, I've always been of the opinion that mistings have 'something extra' that mistborn don't... some sort of amplifier that lets them do just as well as a mistborn despite having less preservation to work with, but is only attuned to a single metal.

It's really the only way to reconcile the all metals/ one metal thing. Presumably hemalurgy reshapes the spiritweb a bit upon extraction

In theory disabling the amplifier thingie would result in either being a super-weak mistborn, or having insufficient allomantic potential to do anything.

Not really supported by anything in particular, just a bit of headcanon

[Satsuoni]

I believe that mistings normally can't see reserves other than their base metal, though mistborn can see reserves even for nonallomantic fatal stuff... just weird. Feruchemists can feel an affinity for the metals they can use... dunno if they can try to store in nonferuchemic metals. Probably worth asking. Actually, they pretty much would need to, otherwise sazed would have been a huge jerk at the beginning of MB2, since vin got really sick trying bad aluminum alloys.

Um, what? I am relatively certain that the Mistborn, in fact, can't sense non-allomantic metals. Like lead, for example - Vin can't feel it as a reserve. They can sense -  and burn - metals that are "close enough" to the base Allomantic ones - and those give headaches on burn. I am relatively certain a Misting could burn only slightly tainted metal as well, as long as it was his metal. Of course, with 16 reference metals, "close enough" cover a much larger area for a Mistborn...

 

And I am relatively sure they sense the "leakage" of power that they can use, so a Misting burning Mists would (at first, while his soul and body are relatively intact) be only able to use unlimited amounts of his metal (until the Mists rip him a few new ones), and Feruchemists would feel unlimited amounts of stuff to tap.

 

And I disagree with an amplifier.. thingie. I think mistings are just weaker, so there is a lower limit of Mistborn  Preservation level, after which you get to be a Misting. So the power levels would go: Autosnapped Lerasium Mistborn - Normal mistborn - Easily snappable Misting - Mist-only snappable Misting - Normal person

[Shardlet]

... and Feruchemists would feel unlimited amounts of stuff to tap.

 

And I disagree with an amplifier.. thingie. I think mistings are just weaker, so there is a lower limit of Mistborn  Preservation level, after which you get to be a Misting. So the power levels would go: Autosnapped Lerasium Mistborn - Normal mistborn - Easily snappable Misting - Mist-only snappable Misting - Normal person

 

Since feruchemy is powered by the feruchemist rather than by Preservation or Ruin, why would a Feruchemist be able to draw on the mists? 

 

Also Satsuoni, in your power heirarchy you did not include Lerasium mistings (i.e., mistings produced by an alloy of Lersium and an allomantic metal).

[Satsuoni]

Since feruchemy is powered by the feruchemist rather than by Preservation or Ruin, why would a Feruchemist be able to draw on the mists? 

 

Also Satsuoni, in your power heirarchy you did not include Lerasium mistings (i.e., mistings produced by an alloy of Lersium and an allomantic metal).

Normally, a Feruchemist won't be able to, but that is not to say Sazed, for example, couldn't forcefeed mists to Feruchemists if such fancy struck him.

Lerasium mistings... would probably be between Mistborn and Mistings. I am not sure about those who were fed two or more metals, though. IMO, they would be very unbalanced Mistborn, but I am not certain. Hemalurgy works differently altogether. I may try to get math behind it, but essentially, I think soul strives for equilibrium, at birth, at least. hmm...

[Shardlet]

I don't know about the force-feeding idea.  If feruchemical power is not compatible with mist-fuel then no amount of pushing by Harmony will make a difference without a fundamental change in the nature of that persons feruchemy.  I think you did touch on something important though.  I think it is clear that mist-fuel can only be used with the consent and wishes of Preservation (or the Preservation aspect of Harmony).

 

I think clarification is needed in your heirarchy.  I expect that a lerasium soother misting would have equivalent power with brass as a lerasium mistborn.  But, perhaps you mean that a mistborn has greater power due to access to the other metals (most notably, perhaps, duralumin).

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Mistborn can indeed sense and attempt to burn nonallomantic metals like lead. Kelsier cautions vin against it, and later when she gets dosed by the inquitors her first reaction is 'this aluminum is a non-allomantic metal they're trying to make me burn it so I'll be sick.' It's an unfamiliar reserve compared to her known ten allomantic ones.

Both ruin and preservation can fuel feruchemy.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Shardlet]

Both ruin and preservation can fuel feruchemy.

 

Do you have any pearls of quotiness to confirm that Phantom?  That is a very definitive statement.

[WeiryWriter]

Do you have any pearls of quotiness to confirm that Phantom?  That is a very definitive statement.

 

While I am not Phantom, I do have quotes.  Ruin and Preservation each have the ability to fuel any of the Metallic Arts.

[Satsuoni]

Mistborn can indeed sense and attempt to burn nonallomantic metals like lead. Kelsier cautions vin against it, and later when she gets dosed by the inquitors her first reaction is 'this aluminum is a non-allomantic metal they're trying to make me burn it so I'll be sick.' It's an unfamiliar reserve compared to her known ten allomantic ones.

 

Um, Phantom... I would think Vin would have noticed an additional reserve when the swallowed a huge bead of lead covered by Atium, then...

She feels a separate reserve of Aluminium, sure, but that is an Allomantic metal, so why wouldn't she?

Kelsier's warning:

“And . . . if you burn the wrong percentage?” Vin asked.

“If the mixture is only off by a bit, you’ll still get some power out of it,” Kelsier said. “However, if it’s too far off, burning it will make you sick.”

 

Note that he mentions "far off" from normal mix, not "any metal at all".

And Vin wasn't thinking too clearly, either. I highly doubt she practiced with swallowing non-Allomantic metals to see if they'd give her additional reserve.

Vin resisted nonetheless, sensing the unfamiliar metal reserve within her. The Inquisitor could be trying to get her to burn a useless metal, one that would make her sick—or, worse, kill her.

But, there are easier ways to kill a captive, she thought in agony. Her arm hurt so much that it felt like it would twist free. Finally, Vin relented, burning the metal.

 

Also, in AoL there is a saying "bad alloy", which, I am fairly certain, point to the fact that they can burn one with bad consequences.

 

Again, I point out that the field of potential "bad alloys" for a Mistborn is huge, including all Allomantic metals with small admixture of anything else (up to maybe 5%), possibly (for iron and steel, for instance) overlapping between base metal and alloy, so it is much easier for them to burn one accidentally.

Silver, for example, is "unburnable":

Silver. Useless, unburnable silver. Like lead, it was one of the metals that provided no Allomantic powers at all.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Do you have any pearls of quotiness to confirm that Phantom?  That is a very definitive statement.

http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6655.msg129262#msg129262

1. Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (Minus Atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or Atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

 

1.  Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts.  Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike.  Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy.  But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

[Shardlet]

Thank you Weiry and Phantom both.

 

While I agree that (in view of the quote and also TFE and HoA) the mist would be the likely means for direct fueling of feruchemy by Preservation/Harmony, I don't think the quote is specific enough to say for certain.  For example, Ruin has nothing to do with the mists, but he also could power any of the arts directly.  What is his mechanism(s) <Shardlet asked rhetorically>?   

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Um, Phantom... I would think Vin would have noticed an additional reserve when the swallowed a huge bead of lead covered by Atium, then...

 

Covered by atium.  She was never in contact with the lead when she was sensing the atium reserve - and you have to actively look for unfamiliar reservoirs.  Notably, even *if* you're looking for a reservoir of some different metal, you still won't see it unless you deliberately try to locate some new metal.

He drank the contents of the vial, then searched inside of himself, seeking tin. But there was none. Spook cried out in despair, dropping the vial. It had contained no tin. How would that have saved him anyway? It would have made him feel the flames, and his wound, more acutely.

"Spook!" the voice commanded. "Burn it!"

"There is no tin!" Spook yelled.

"Not tin! The man who owned this house was no Tineye!"

Not tin. Spook blinked. Then—reaching within himself—he found something completely unexpected. Something he'd never thought to ever see, something that shouldn't have existed.

 

Here's Kelsier educating Vin.

 

 

Also,” Kelsier said, “never try to burn a metal that isn’t one of the ten. I warned you that impure metals and alloys can make you sick. Well, if you try to burn a metal that isn’t Allomantically sound at all, it could be deadly.”

Vin nodded solemnly. Good to know, she thought.

“It’s not that simple,” Kelsier said. “You remember how I told you never to burn a metal that wasn’t one of the ten?”

Vin nodded.

“Burning another metal can be deadly,” Kelsier said.

 

If it was impossible to burn a metal that wasn't one of the ten, Kelsier wouldn't have told Vin not to do it.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Satsuoni]

Hmm... Most peculiar. Still, a Misting can burn an off-alloy - that much is obvious, given the technology level. The question is how far off. And when Vin searches for sources, she feels all of them at the same time, as distinct sources, not blurs of varying purity they should, technically, be, taking in account oxidation from alcohol, mixing, etc. So apparently there are some safeguards, at least.

If she focused, she could distinguish eight sources of power within her—each one far larger, even, than her two had been on the day when Kelsier had tested her.

 

Yet it is obvious, from your quotes, that a Mistborn can burn at least some other metals if one wants to. Possibly it has to deal with one metal or all metals dichotomy, then. I would still maintain that they can't burn *all* metals.

What do you think would happen if a Mistborn were to burn a metal at midpoint between steel and iron? I mean, steel is maybe 1 to 2 percent carbon added to iron, so a percent off shouldn't kill an Allomancer...

[Phantom Monstrosity]

What do you think would happen if a Mistborn were to burn a metal at midpoint between steel and iron? I mean, steel is maybe 1 to 2 percent carbon added to iron, so a percent off shouldn't kill an Allomancer...

 

 

I'm guessing they'd just get ill with no allomantic effect.

 

I'm more interested in a tapered bar that's pure copper at one end, pure tin at the other, and has a varying percentage in the middle.

[Odium's_Shard]

Again, the alignment of three holes and a water source press down on them.

If you have a metal, that is or is not Allomantically sound, and not the spiritual permissions, nothing happens.

If you have spiritual permissions to burn any metal, but it doesn't correlate with the Allomantic ones, then something happens to you to make you very sick.

 

If it slightly aligns, power still trickles through. And makes you sick.

Mistborns sDNA compared to Misting, is probably the same 'segments' that allow to channel each individually. Because Mistings aren't more powerful, this means that they have the same potential as a Mistborn in just one metal, they have 1/16th of the sDNA. They have, say, a 'Steel marker', a hole, that allows Power to flow through into the Physical Realm.

[Shardlet]

Hmm... Most peculiar. Still, a Misting can burn an off-alloy - that much is obvious, given the technology level. The question is how far off. And when Vin searches for sources, she feels all of them at the same time, as distinct sources, not blurs of varying purity they should, technically, be, taking in account oxidation from alcohol, mixing, etc. So apparently there are some safeguards, at least.

 

Yet it is obvious, from your quotes, that a Mistborn can burn at least some other metals if one wants to. Possibly it has to deal with one metal or all metals dichotomy, then. I would still maintain that they can't burn *all* metals.

What do you think would happen if a Mistborn were to burn a metal at midpoint between steel and iron? I mean, steel is maybe 1 to 2 percent carbon added to iron, so a percent off shouldn't kill an Allomancer...

 

Not that this matters particularly, but the metal flakes are in alcohol to prevent oxidation and there really is no halfway between steel and iron.  Iron is 0% carbon while steel is about 0.1%-2% (although 1-2% range is not particularly useful).

 

 

I'm guessing they'd just get ill with no allomantic effect.

 

I'm more interested in a tapered bar that's pure copper at one end, pure tin at the other, and has a varying percentage in the middle.

Such a thing would be exceedingly difficult to produce.  In fact I can't think of a way to do it where it would have a constant regular gradient.  The easiest way would be powder metallurgy, but even then it would be challenging.  I would expect that the effect of burning would depend on what part you are burning at the moment.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Shardlet

[Satsuoni]

Not that this matters particularly, but the metal flakes are in alcohol to prevent oxidation and there really is no halfway between steel and iron.  Iron is 0% carbon while steel is about 0.1%-2% (although 1-2% range is not particularly useful).

There was a thread about this a while back. As far as I remember, at best, ethanol gives little to no advantage over water, and at worst it is actually worse than water. Being an extremely weak acid, it actually dissolves some metals, or at least removes protective oxidation layer. To protect from corrosion, one would use food grade oil.

By "halfway", I of course meant allomantically. That is, there is pure allomantic iron, and allomantic steel which is a fixed percentage of carbon in mix, but the amount of carbon is really small, so I wonder about precision. Essentially, take half allomantic iron, half Allomantic steel by weight, mix and burn.