Theory: Rock, Paper, Scissors…Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual.

[Khmauv]

Theory: Rock, Paper, Scissors…Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual.

 

After reading The Emperor’s Soul I have been thinking about forging and how it works. It seems to me that a forger is directly altering an objects spiritual aspect, which in turn alters the physical. I also thought about how some forgeries were viable or not based on how believable the change. Shai mentions that if too many people know something is a forgery the less likely it is to stick.

 

This started me on a path to a new Theory. The Rock, Paper, Scissors Theory of the Cosmere. It goes like this:

 

Physical determines cognitive.

 

 Cognitive determines spiritual.

 

Spiritual determines physical.

 

I am not going to take the time to make a diagram but you can imagine that this makes a nice neat feedback loop that naturally finds an equilibrium on what we find normal.

 

A regular input to the system would be through the physical. Someone takes a stone and chisels it into a statue. The physical alteration changes people’s cognitive view of the stone and in turn the spiritual aspect is changed to match.

 

Magical systems are those that violate this pattern.

 

Forging alters the spiritual directly which alters the physical. If the physical is believable then the cognitive falls in line and the alterations stick and the feedback loop continues. If the change is not plausible the loop is broken and the forgery breaks down.

 

Awakening alters the cognitive aspect of an object which changes the spiritual and then the physical. Breath seems to act as a buffer that makes the impossible plausible, the less likely the change the more breath is required. If the command is given poorly or there are not enough breaths to buffer the loop is broken and nothing changes.

 

Another example is the spren. There seems to be a thinning of the barriers between the realms on Roshar. I believe the spren are a spiritual manifestation. When measured a fire spren assumes that measurement and stops changing. The simple act of writing down the measurement locks the spren’s cognitive aspect in place and fixes its spiritual and then physical forms (if indeed they have physical forms).

 

I know it’s not perfect but I thought it was at least cohesive enough to present. 

[Shardlet]

I like it!  It is concise, tidy, and fun.  Everyone is trying the new game that is sweeping the Cosmere.  Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. Play today at your local convention or book-signing! 

[Kurkistan]

Quite an interesting take.
 
It's a little worrying, though, that this "loop" doesn't really lend itself to falsifiable. You say Awakening is Cognitive? I say it's Spiritual. Conflict!!!
 
But how to resolve it? By observing effects?
 
Cognitive Awakening: Cognitive changed, then spiritual, then physical. As you describe, "Breath seems to act as a buffer that makes the impossible plausible, the less likely the change the more breath is required. If the command is given poorly or there are not enough breaths to buffer the loop is broken and nothing changes."
 
Spiritual Awakening: Spiritual changed, then physical, then cognitive. [fake me says] "The object's soul is changed to make its purpose in "life" to be to follow some Command, with stronger Commands needing more Breath. The less like an object that would have that purpose it is, the more Breath you need (so humanoid figures of straw are more akin to action-taking objects than bundles of straw). This makes the object act physically to carry out its command, with fake "muscles" in tapestries and the like as a sign of this physical change. This, in turn, changes how the object is Cognitively viewed, from a non-moving object with an inactive teleological component to an active object with the Commanded teleology."

 
I might be able to pull up an example were you start in the Physical, but you see the problem. The only way to know which part of a closed loop you start on is to watch it start, so we need to know whether something is fundamentally P/C/S before you can start applying your theory. There would be some applicability if we could nail down the starting point some other way, though.
 
Beyond these issues, there is a slightly more fundamental challenge: you only allow for unidirectional relations between the Realms. Your Physical cannot affect the Spiritual without going through the Cognitive first. Hemalurgy immediately pops to mind, though I suppose you could work out some Cognitive shenanigans to deal with that. But we also have WoB:
 
Source:

Odiums_Shard: So, firstly, is the Cognitive realm the only way to access the Spiritual Realm from the Physical Realm, and vice versa?

Brandon: No.

 

I feel bad about this, since I actually like this idea. It's elegant, well explained, and, as you said, cohesive. It happens, though, that it is also wrong.

 

I took the time to criticize your idea before laying down a WoB-sledgehammer because I appreciate the effort you put into it, and you deserve comments based on it. I hope to see hanging around in and creating Realmatics threads in the future, as I think you have something to add to the discussion. Cohesive originality, at the very least.

 

Also, I was going to point you to the "realmatics" tag to look at other threads about high-level Cosmere stuff, but half of them are mine, so it's a bit narcissistic of me.  I would suggest that you creep on some of the older members' "Espoused Theories" sections, if you want some more to look at.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Kurkistan

[The Count]

Nice effort, fits together nicely... have a +1.

 

However, the theory presupposes that all things have a spiritual component... I really am not sure how much a rock exists in the spritual realm.

 

As Kirk said, you also require a 1 way traffic Cognitive - Spiritual - Physical. But from Shallan's soulcasting the goblet to blood, it seems like there is  a change in the cognitive aspect that directly leads to a physical change.

 

I suppose you could say that the cognitive change implicitly alters the spiritweb of the goblet... still I am not certain about how much spiritual presence such an inanimate object has....

 

I admit this line of thought does not disprove your theory, necessarily.

Edited June 21, 2013 by MadRand

[Khmauv]

I really like the idea of one thing affecting the other in a unidirectional way but Well...WoB soundly killed that theory. Though I still think there is something salvageable in here somewhere. I will continue to refine my thoughts on this. Thanks for your input.  

[Phantom Monstrosity]

However, the theory presupposes that all things have a spiritual component... I really am not sure how much a rock exists in the spritual realm.

One of the few things we know about realmatics is that everything has an aspect in each realm.

(yes that makes people traveling into shadesmar /weird/)

[Kurkistan]

Unless their bodies never go there, and they just edit their location with their minds! 

Edited June 21, 2013 by Kurkistan

[The Count]

One of the few things we know about realmatics is that everything has an aspect in each realm.

(yes that makes people traveling into shadesmar /weird/)

 

Ok... I missed this... My realmatics-fu is weak.

 

Still, correct me if I am wrong but the black smoke from the eyes is a sign of 'spiritual damage', yes?

 

Yet we see so sign of any such from anything other than living creatures (no black smoke from a split rock for example)

 

I suppose this could be explained if the smoke was from damage to a soul....

 

Or maybe it is just that the spiritual aspect of a rock is so small that the 'spiritual damage' is minmal on human scale (and so not visible to humans).

 

I think on balance, I like the soul idea better... need to think on this some more.

[Leuthie]

Nightblood's black smoke seems to be a corruption of Breath; attaching living Soul (Cognitive and/or Spiritual) "material" to an entity that has never been alive (metal sword) causes a corruption of that Soul material (Breath). WoB says that the black smoke from the eyes on Roshar is related to the black smoke from Nightblood. So, I surmise that the black smoke from the eyes is the Physical aspect of a piece of soul corrupted and detached from the entity it came from by the Shardblade passing through it.

[The Count]

Nightblood's black smoke seems to be a corruption of Breath; attaching living Soul (Cognitive and/or Spiritual) "material" to an entity that has never been alive (metal sword) causes a corruption of that Soul material (Breath). WoB says that the black smoke from the eyes on Roshar is related to the black smoke from Nightblood. So, I surmise that the black smoke from the eyes is the Physical aspect of a piece of soul corrupted and detached from the entity it came from by the Shardblade passing through it.

 

If this is true then....

 

WoR Spoiler

 

Black smoke from the eyes (corrupted soul) from the touch of a shardblade

 

Black corrupted spren from the touch of an unmade

 

Connection?

 

[Pechvarry]

Magical systems are those that violate this pattern.

 

Just wanted to reiterate that.  I only had time to skim, but it looks like a lot of counterpoints to the OP are using assorted magic systems as their supporting evidence.

[Kurkistan]

Yes, but the "pattern" Khmauv is referring to is the pattern of changes occurring in the Physical first, then trickling up to the other Realms (which I also think is wrong, btw). His OP holds that magic still follows the same path (P->C->S->P...), but is allowed to start in a Realm other than the Physical.

[Pechvarry]

Then if I had any input for Khmauv, it'd be the following:

 

Rectify your statement to simply read "anything goes when magic systems are involved."

[Khmauv]

Then if I had any input for Khmauv, it'd be the following:

 

Rectify your statement to simply read "anything goes when magic systems are involved."

But then all value to the post would be completely lost. I agree with Kurk that my theory is incorrect. That has been well demonstrated, but that doesn't leave the ideas without merit. If I say that magic can do anything I have reduced what merit that remains to nothing. Not to mention I would be violating Brandon's own laws.