Theory: The origin, nature, and purpose of Shardblades

[Shardlet]

I have made comments about a number of these details in other posts.  So, I apologize if much of this is ideas you have heard from me already.  But, I thought it was time to couch it in an independent and cohesive theory.

 

Shardblades each have a gemstone in the pommel (or at least in some location; largely irrelevant for the present purpose).  Fabrials are devices which gain extraordinary abilities via a spren captured in a gemstone fit in the fabrial.  It is my contention that shardblades are a sort of god-fabrial.  I suspect that rather than a simple spren being captured in the gemstone it is a piece of a Shard voluntarily splintered and placed or invested in the gemstone (or even, it may be the gemstone) for the express purpose of forming the shardblade.  

 

We have seen in WoR that the gemstones came after the Recreance to facilitate bonding Shardblades and that Shardblades are in fact spren.  Spren are, however, splinters of Honor/Cultivation so they are in fact splinter's of Honor/Cultivation.

 

I personally believe that the radiantblades and the Honorblades were formed by Honor (and perhaps with Cultivation as well).  However, I believe that Szeth's blade is Odium's version of a shardblade.  My basis for this belief is that the radiantblades are described as being massive and as being "designed to slay dark gods" (Hardcover, pg. 29).  In contrast, Szeth's blade is described as smaller than normal shardblades (hardcover, pg. 25).  As I see it, radiantblades are designed to fight great big nasty unnatural beasties (like thunderclasts) while Szeth's blade is designed to fight humans.  

 

We now know that sprenblades (as opposed to Honorblades) are able to shift in size and shape, but that the default form is a blade since they were patterned by the spren after the Honorblades.  While it is not fully confirmed (to my knowledge at least.  I have been out of the loop for the last few months and last I saw Brandon demurred rather than give a full confirmation), WoR screams that Szeth's blade is an Honorblade and almost certainly Jezrien's blade since Jezrien is the patron saint, as it were of the Windrunners which had the same skill set as Szeth did.

I also believe that the reason Syl has such a strong aversion to shardblades is due to them being tainted, perhaps in events leading up to the Recreance or perhaps resulting from events immediately following the Recreance.  I think it is not the swords themselves that are the source of her aversion, but rather the use to which the swords were put.  Shardblades were designed and created to be used to defend humanity against the unnatural enemies they faced during the desolations.  But after the last desolation, they have been been turned against ordinary humans.  Something sacred, something containing a piece of a 'god' voluntarily sacrificed has been turned against the purpose it was designed for.  I think this is hinted at by the following text:
 

But when weapons created to fight nightmares were turned against common soldiers, the lives of men became cheap indeed.  (Hardcover, pg. 28)

 

We now know that Syl hated the Shardblades because they are "dead" spren.  They would be particularly abhorent to honorpren like Syl since they would be a visceral symbol of broken oaths.

 

This is my prime theory on shardblades.  While there is a certain zen aspect to requiring Odium to provide the weapons necessary to defeat his forces as, at least part of, his part of the Oathpact; How could Honor and Cultivation trust Odium to not create backdoors and weaknesses into the weapons he provided?

Edited May 23, 2014 by Shardlet

[The Count]

 It is my contention that shardblades are a sort of god-fabrial.  I suspect that rather than a simple spren being captured in the gemstone it is a piece of a Shard voluntarily splintered and placed or invested in the gemstone (or even, it may be the gemstone) for the express purpose of forming the shardblade.  

 

I can buy this for an Honorblade, but not for a 'regular' shardblade (i.e those weilded by the Alethi).

 

But this does make me think...

 

How about a 'normal' shardblade as an invested piece of a mortal, honorable soul? Given freely to fight the voidbringers.

 

This could also explain Syl's reaction. Using a piece of an honorable man's soul (someone who swore the ideals of athe KR no less) to kill other men... That is pretty horrific and worthy of hatred IMO.

 

But I am merely guessing...

 

Also, I have no idea how Szeth's blade would fit this...

Edited June 20, 2013 by MadRand

[Shardlet]

I would give the human soul idea a very tepid possibly.  It seems that this would require a vast sacrifice of humanity and would weaken the core group of people that Honor is counting on to fight against Odium.  And while the human soul can be very powerful, nnnnnhhh I'm not sure if it would be sufficient for this purpose.

 

 

I think the voluntary splinters of Honor (and perhaps Cultivation) invested in the Honorblades vs. in the radiantblades are simply different and that these two types of blades are simply created to be specifically different (Honorblades are more powerful [as shown in the Prelude], bigger splinter?) than each other. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm going to say that I think shardblades are powered by the wielder.

 

Hence why they don't work when nobody holds them.

[Shardlet]

I would suggest rather that they are triggered or activated by the wielder.  There does not seem to be any indication of energy loss from the wielder; So I don't think that powered by the wielder is quite right.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, the body focus for diamond (and soulcasting crystal) is 'the eyes'... and they've got a clear crystal on the hilt, and mess with your eyes.

[Shardlet]

I'm not sure if we've seen enough examples to give us a solid basis to decide that clear gemstones are universal to shardblades.  I am, however, looking forward to a greater understanding of how and why shardblades change eye color and burn out the eyes of the victims.

[skaa]

Hey Shardlet, you were kind enough to give helpful comments on my own Shardblade theory, so I'll try to give my two cents regarding yours.

Your musings about massive Shardblades made me think about Shallan. All we know about Shallan's Shardblade is that it is "long and silvery". I'm pretty sure it's not as massive as Dalinar's or Elhokar's Shardblades, otherwise Shallan would need to be as strong as a man (or wearing Shardplate) to even wield it. So it seems to me that the Shardblades of Lighteyes need not be as massive as what we've seen so far.

Next, here's the text showing Syl's hatred of Shardblades:

"He's a good man," Syl said. "I've watched him. Despite that thing he carried."
"That thing?"
"The Shardblade."
"What do you care about it?"
"I don't know," she said..."It just feels wrong to me. I hate it. I'm glad he got rid of it. Makes him a better man."

It seems to me that Syl objected to the Shardblade itself, not just how it is used. Of course, that's still compatible with the view that Shardblades have been corrupted, and so are now hated by honorspren.

The "created to fight nightmares" line was from Szeth, whose Shardblade at least we both agree is from Odium. I'm thinking that Szeth, just like almost everyone currently living on Roshar, associates Shardblades with the Knights Radiant, and so he'd assume that they were created to fulfill the Knights' honorable mission. He wouldn't really know anything about the Shardblades' origins since that knowledge would have been lost along with many things about the Heraldic epochs. On the other hand, Szeth does know about Surgebinding, just like Jasnah, so he obviously knows more about the Radiants than the average Shardbearer.

I think Phantom might be onto something when he connects Shardblades with the Essence Lucentia (diamond and eyes). Of course, Lucentia's Divine attributes are Loving and Healing, which would be the absolute opposite of what people do when they use Shardblades, but I think this might tie in with the theory (I believe it's Isomere's) that Odium can corrupt the magic systems on Roshar to cater to his Shardic Intent. Perhaps an Odium-Invested diamond can produce the opposite effect of Lucentia-based magic (e.g. destruction instead of healing), while still affecting the user's eyes?

Edited June 21, 2013 by skaa

[Windrunner]

If I'm remembering right, Shardblades are near weightless. Honestly, even a dude would have to be seriously ripped to even hold a six foot long sword made of metal, let alone fight using it.

[skaa]

If I'm remembering right, Shardblades are near weightless. Honestly, even a dude would have to be seriously ripped to even hold a six foot long sword made of metal, let alone fight using it.

 

Yeah, that makes sense. Still, we know that Sunraiser (Elhokar's Shardblade) is thin... So, thin Shardblades are a thing among the Lighteyes, and Brandon might prefer to give something similar to Shallan (perhaps for aesthetic purposes). But that aside, thanks for the correction, Windrunner!

 

I note with much hesitation that if Shardblades have actual diamonds attached to them (and not just something with a gemstone-like appearance), then they are probably not spren, and so my theory about them is wrong. Well, that's a bummer. I guess I'll have to go with the "A Shardblade's gemstone contains odiumspren" alternative theory, which is a cross between Shardlet's theory and mine.

 

I still don't think any of the Shardblades were of Honor. The main uses of Shardblades all have something to do with death and destruction; even the Knights and the Heralds used it for that, except their targets were Voidbringers and other creatures of Odium. I still can't reconcile this fact with the Shardic Intent of either Honor or Cultivation, and so I still have to conclude that Shardblades use Odium's system.

 

Here's another reason why I think even Honorblades are of Odium. From Kalak's description of his torturous experiences in between Desolations, we know that part of the Heralds' torture involves "hooks, digging into their flesh anew each day". This suggests that the place of torture was more than just a place of pain in the abstract, and that they had actual torturers who physically assaulted them. Given how Shardblades could destroy even Odium's creatures, it makes one wonder why the Heralds didn't just fight off their torturers using their Honorblades. They certainly could have sliced the hooks away, at least.

 

I can think of a couple of possible reasons why this is so, but the one I find most fitting is that they were incapable of using their Honorblades in that place for the simple reason that their torturers and the spren in their Honorblades were one and the same: odiumspren.

Edited June 21, 2013 by skaa

[Leuthie]

Syl specifically uses the word "hate" to describe her feeling about Dalinar's Shardblade. Nod to its Odius nature? Is it possible that common Shardblades are powered by Odium while Szeth's blade isn't?

[skaa]

If I'm remembering right, Shardblades are near weightless. Honestly, even a dude would have to be seriously ripped to even hold a six foot long sword made of metal, let alone fight using it.

 

Okay... um, I'm sorry to resurrect this issue, but I was reading the Ten Heartbeats chapter and found this:

 

His Shardblade-- Oathbringer-- formed in his hand, coalescing from mist, appearing as the tenth beat of his heart thudded in his chest. Six feet long from tip to hilt, the Blade would have been unwieldy in the hands of any man not wearing Shardplate. To Dalinar, it felt perfect.

 

So it seems huge Shardblades do weigh a lot.

 

I just thought I should correct this error before people start incorporating the "Shardblades are near weightless" idea into their theories.

Edited June 27, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Unwieldy doesn't necessarily mean 'heavy' - after all, your moment of inertia has to be huge on something that long, even if it isn't very dense.  I mean, yeah, they aren't weightless

The tenth heartbeat sounded in Dalinar’s chest; he could always hear the beats when he was summoning his Blade, no matter how loud the world around him was. The faster they passed, the sooner the blade arrived. So the more urgent you felt, the sooner you were armed. Was that intentional, or just some quirk of the Shardblade’s nature?

Oathbringer’s familiar weight settled into his hand.

 

But they're so cutty they do feel really light in combat, which is what people are thinking of.

The way it reacted to flesh and cut steel so easily, it sometimes felt to Dalinar like he was swinging a weapon of pure smoke. As long as he kept the Blade in motion, it could not get caught in chinks or stopped by the weight of what it was cutting.

[Windborne Sword]

Unwieldy doesn't necessarily mean 'heavy' - after all, your moment of inertia has to be huge on something that long, even if it isn't very dense.  I mean, yeah, they aren't weightless

 

But they're so cutty they do feel really light in combat, which is what people are thinking of.

 

It doesn't even need to be weightless, but very light. Think about waving around a piece of wood that's as long as your wingspan, it's going to have inertia and it's going to be unwieldy, now imagine that piece of wood is as wide as your girth and weighs no different.

 

Go to youtube and look up the Men at Arms video of them making the Buster Sword from FF7. It's flipping huge and they can't even swing it properly.

 

 

However I think this has theory has merit, and it would make sense. I wonder if there are Cultivation blades or if the Cultivation part comes into how varied each Shardblade seems to be.

[skaa]

Unwieldy doesn't necessarily mean 'heavy' - after all, your moment of inertia has to be huge on something that long, even if it isn't very dense.  I mean, yeah, they aren't weightless

 

But they're so cutty they do feel really light in combat, which is what people are thinking of.

 

Let me explain the origin of the argument. Part of Shardlet's theory is that the size of the Shardblade indicated if it was of Honor or of Odium. She theorized that huge Shardblades were of Honor while thin ones like Szeth's were of Odium. I pointed out that Shallan wouldn't be able to wield her Shardblade if it was as huge as Oathbringer. Windrunner said that Shardblades are weightless, so Shallan would still be able to wield a huge Shardblade. But the quote I gave earlier today showed that people without Shardplate would find Oathbringer-sized Shardblades unwieldly. So, no, Shallan wouldn't be able to wield a huge Shardblade.

 

I suppose it's an unnecessary argument, anyway, since I already pointed out that Elhokar has a thin Shardblade. So Szeth's must be different from those of the Lighteyes in some other way.

Edited June 27, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Just because it's unwieldy doesn't mean you can't use it, it just means you won't be nearly as good with it.

[skaa]

Just because it's unwieldy doesn't mean you can't use it, it just means you won't be nearly as good with it.

 

You're ignoring the point about Elhokar's Shardblade.

 

 

Edit: I suppose Szeth's blade might be shorter as well as thinner than normal ones. But really, if it's true that Honor and Odium had their own Shardblade versions, why would the Shard representing hatred and ill-will have the shorter killing tools? In my opinion, it still makes more sense that all Shardblades are of Odium.

Edited June 27, 2013 by skaa

[Windborne Sword]

You're ignoring the point about Elhokar's Shardblade.

 

 

Edit: I suppose Szeth's blade might be shorter as well as thinner than normal ones. But really, if it's true that Honor and Odium had their own Shardblade versions, why would the Shard representing hatred and ill-will have the shorter killing tools? In my opinion, it still makes more sense that all Shardblades are of Odium.

 

Maybe because the ones used in Roshar now are corrupted? I got thinking about how if the focus crystals in the Shardblade hilt really are Diamonds they were once meant to only heal people they cut. Sort of like Tenseiga cut the Bearers of the Dead, preventing someone from dying, in Inuyasha if anyone here has ever read that series. Maybe after splintering Honor the Shardblades became corrupted from their original purpose? They were meant to only hurt the Voidbringers and wouldn't harm normal Rosharians.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Windborne Sword

[Shardlet]

Let me explain the origin of the argument. Part of Shardlet's theory is that the size of the Shardblade indicated if it was of Honor or of Odium. She theorized that huge Shardblades were of Honor while thin ones like Szeth's were of Odium. I pointed out that Shallan wouldn't be able to wield her Shardblade if it was as huge as Oathbringer. Windrunner said that Shardblades are weightless, so Shallan would still be able to wield a huge Shardblade. But the quote I gave earlier today showed that people without Shardplate would find Oathbringer-sized Shardblades unwieldly. So, no, Shallan wouldn't be able to wield a huge Shardblade.

 

I suppose it's an unnecessary argument, anyway, since I already pointed out that Elhokar has a thin Shardblade. So Szeth's must be different from those of the Lighteyes in some other way. 

 

I suppose Szeth's blade might be shorter as well as thinner than normal ones. But really, if it's true that Honor and Odium had their own Shardblade versions, why would the Shard representing hatred and ill-will have the shorter killing tools? In my opinion, it still makes more sense that all Shardblades are of Odium.

 

I am sad that Skaa reads me as being a woman.  It is a blow to my male ego .  Oh well, I suppose I will survive somehow.  And I guess I will have to start posting with a deeper voice .

 

I suspect that the indication of Szeth's blade being smaller than other shardblades cited in the OP would most likely primarily refer to it's length.  Although I would also suspect that there is an associated relative slenderness to it as well.  It can clearly be very effectively wielded by someone not in plate.  This would make the blade very effective for fighting a smaller adversary since it would be more nimble and could be effectively wielded without plate (making the blade more utile to a broader population).  

 

As to Shallan's blade, we have not yet seen it or had a description of it.  It is very possible that she also has a Szethblade (or in the spirit of this theory, an Odiumblade, if you will). 

[skaa]

/>/>I am sad that Skaa reads me as being a woman. It is a blow to my male ego . Oh well, I suppose I will survive somehow. And I guess I will have to start posting with a deeper voice .

I am deeply sorry for that. Yeah, I originally thought you were female (don't ask), but I've known for a while now that you are male. I guess I was just a bit sleepy and forgot. Sorry again!

/>/>Maybe because the ones used in Roshar now are corrupted? I got thinking about how if the focus crystals in the Shardblade hilt really are Diamonds they were once meant to only heal people they cut. Sort of like Tenseiga cut the Bearers of the Dead, preventing someone from dying, in Inuyasha if anyone here has ever read that series. Maybe after splintering Honor the Shardblades became corrupted from their original purpose? They were meant to only hurt the Voidbringers and wouldn't harm normal Rosharians.

Yeah, the diamond thing really bugged/intrigued me ever since I (re-)learned about it. I've actually been looking at the lines connecting each Essence/Order in the Radiants chart, trying to find if there is a pattern that could explain the nature of Shardblades. They seem to be related to the Essences Lucentia (diamond, and the way they affect the eyes), Blood (the ten heartbeats, the condensation), and Foil (they are metallic, right?). The problem is that none of those Essences are connected to each other. I'm still not sure whether that's relevant or not to my "Shardblades are of Odium" theory.

(I am currently developing a theory about Essence-trios that are connected to each other, but that's for another future thread.)

Edited June 27, 2013 by skaa

[Crysanja]

we dont know much about shardblades from the "intended" users. we dont know how it is forged or made.

maybe with the right mindset/tools you can change its size and form.

 

ok this sounds a bit rediculouse, but our sources with information about shardblades are so too.

they have no clue how they are made, why they were made, where they are while not summoned. 

 

they know nearly nothing about them, they are ancient relics, which are played with.

[Satsuoni]

One thing to note:  many of you assume that somehow, Honor and killing are conflicting intents, while they are really not... In fact, most of what I know of honor (from history books, since the concept doesn't seem very prevalent nowadays), is connected to killing. For example, duels were a honorable way of replying to insults, vengeance was considered honorable, etc... In general, quick, clean killing was considered a honorable thing, while slow torture was largely seen as less honorable. Dying in battle? Honorable. Killing in battle? Honorable. Poisoning? Not honorable. As such, Shardblades seem to be more in line with Honor intent - quick, clean death, than Odium, which would probably prefer slow, painful death of both participants...

[The Count]

One thing to note:  many of you assume that somehow, Honor and killing are conflicting intents, while they are really not... In fact, most of what I know of honor (from history books, since the concept doesn't seem very prevalent nowadays), is connected to killing. For example, duels were a honorable way of replying to insults, vengeance was considered honorable, etc... In general, quick, clean killing was considered a honorable thing, while slow torture was largely seen as less honorable. Dying in battle? Honorable. Killing in battle? Honorable. Poisoning? Not honorable. As such, Shardblades seem to be more in line with Honor intent - quick, clean death, than Odium, which would probably prefer slow, painful death of both participants...

 

Agreed (have a +1).

 

Also don't forget that the idea of killing in order to protect is strong theme through the book. Kaladin's struggle to come to terms with this as he decided to become surgeon or soldier (healer or killer) comes to a focus when he speaks the second ideal.

 

I feel theres is a strong implication that Kaladins actions at the tower (resulting in the deaths of lots of Parshendi) was honorable if regrettable. 

 

I think the key to use shardblades is the old superhero mantra... with great power comes great respnsibility.

 

Or in Roshar terms. A shardblade is an ultimate killing machine and such power should not be used cheaply (such as mass slaughter or forwarding ones personal wealth) as the Alethi do.

 

To fight / kill a soldier to save an unarmed child is honourable.

Using a shardblade to do so? I am not so sure...

[Satsuoni]

Thank you, MadRand

In general, honor is a flexible thing. For some religions, sacrificing infants might be considered honourable - or Szeth actions might be explained by a twisted sense of honor, keeping to his oaths and his beliefs, as it were. The majority of cultures (that I am aware of), however, consider defense and protection more honorable, so saving a child is probably a proper use of Shardblade - especially if a sight of Shardbearer approaching causes an attacking soldier to run for the hills. Kaladin fighting Parshendi was, indeed, honorable, while seeking conflict for conflict's sake is probably not...

 

And I think Brandon promised a scene that explains Blade/Plate formation in WoR

[Shardlet]

Definitely, IRL, honor has been ascribed to a variety of practices and standards.  But, shardically speaking, I think Honor must must have a non-subjective meaning and standard.  Consider, we know that over time a shard's intent will override or even overwrite the personality of the holder of the the shard.  In the case of Honor, the nature of such an overwrite cannot be determined by prevailing ideas on what is honorable, but rather must be by some standard of honor inherent to the shard.  So, for the shardblades to be used in correlation with the intent of the Shard who formed them, they must be used according to this non-subjective standard of honor (or honor and cultivation mix).

 

Edit: spelling

Edited June 28, 2013 by Shardlet