Jump to content

Vorinism and the Decline of Historic Knowledge


The Rooster

Recommended Posts

Nice quote. 

I was remembering something different.  Jasnah talking to Shallan about existing documents in the Dawnchant that are currently unreadable.  I wonder whether one of you wizards with the electronic versions could search up "Dawnchant".  I need to get my own electronic copy.

 

 

I looked for "Dawnchant" and find only four mentions: 

 

— Epigraph Chapter 35 

— The conversation after the "Honor-vision" in Chapter 60 (which I partially quoted before), where "Dawnchant" is mentioned three times. 

 

“It’s a line from a song,” Navani said. “A chant by the Vanrial, an order of artists who live on the slopes of the Silent Mount in Jah Keved. Year after year, century after century, they’ve sung these same words—songs they claim were written in the Dawnchant by the Heralds themselves. They have the words of those songs, written in an ancient script. But the meanings have been lost. They’re just sounds, now. Some scholars believe that the script—and the songs themselves—may indeed be in the Dawnchant.”
“And I…” Dalinar said.
“You just spoke a line from one of them,” Navani said. “Beyond that, if the phrase you just gave me is correct, you translated it. This could prove the Vanrial Hypothesis! One sentence isn’t much, but it could give us the key to translating the entire script. It has been itching at me for a while, listening to these visions. I thought the things you were saying had too much order to be gibberish.” She looked at Dalinar, smiling deeply. “Dalinar, you might just have cracked one of the most perplexing—and ancient— mysteries of all time.”
“Wait,” Adolin said. “What are you saying?”
“What I’m saying, nephew,” Navani said, looking directly at him, “is that we have your proof.”
“But,” Adolin said. “I mean, he could have heard that one phrase…”
“And extrapolated an entire language from it?” Navani said, holding up a sheet full of writings. “This is not gibberish, but it’s no language that people now speak. I suspect it is what it seems, the Dawnchant. So unless you can think of another way your father learned to speak a dead language, Adolin, the visions are most certainly real.”
The room fell silent. Navani herself looked stunned by what she had said. She shook it off quickly. “Now, Dalinar,” she said, “I want you to describe this vision as accurately as possible. I need the exact words you spoke, if you can recall them. Every bit we gather will help my scholars sort through this….”

 

 

I'm sorry, I can't find Jasnah mentioning "Dawnchant." :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice quote. 

 

 

I looked for "Dawnchant" and find only four mentions: 

 

— Epigraph Chapter 35 

— The conversation after the "Honor-vision" in Chapter 60 (which I partially quoted before), where "Dawnchant" is mentioned three times. 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I can't find Jasnah mentioning "Dawnchant." :(

Umm, well.  I must be hallucinating again. 

Please accept my apologies and an upvote for sending you on a wild goose chase.  I will get my own electronic copy, so I will be the only one whose time I waste in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

— Epigraph Chapter 35 

... 

I'm sorry, I can't find Jasnah mentioning "Dawnchant." :(

That Epigraph is from Jasnah's notebook. So Jasnah did say it, but it's not part of a conversation from Shallan.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That Epigraph is from Jasnah's notebook. So Jasnah did say it, but it's not part of a conversation from Shallan.

 

 

You're right, Morsk. I always remember Navani as author of those -- wrongly. 

 

@ Hoser: sorry for confusing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That Epigraph is from Jasnah's notebook. So Jasnah did say it, but it's not part of a conversation from Shallan.

Thanks, Morsk.  You inspired me to look at the epigraph, and it was what I was quasi-remembering.  And Meg, it wasn't a wild goose chase after all. 

Presumably from one of Jasnah's notebooks, the notation underneath the epigraph quote of Chapter 35:

-Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804.  What I wouldn't give for a way to translate the Dawnchant

 

So something is a surviving original source, which is only understood from a requotation.  This means to me that the original is in the Dawnchant.  Purely speculation, but Jasnah's lament suggests to me that there may be other documents in Dawnchant also. 

 

Unfortunately, there are few words that overlap the phrase that Dalinar translated, but hopefully Navani will have more translations when Jasnah arrives at the Shattered Plains. 

 

I almost want Jasnah to teleport Shallan straight there rather than take a boat, but I suspect Brandon will have some fun interactions on the boat trip if some combination of Szeth and Taravangian are on the same boat.  If Shallan's ship captain friend owns the boat in question and is a Ghostblood, it could be even more interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding to why the Recreance is seen as the betrayal by the KR. When the KR left their shards at Feverstone keep there was chaos with a lot of people killed over them. I imagine that as they spread through the world that there would be even more chaos over who is to be in possession of the shards. The KR is blamed because they leaving the shards caused the event of lots of shardblades in the wrong hands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

@Hoser. If memory serves correctly there are 2-3 more quotes about Dawnchant in the annotations. 

I think Binnut also has a point about people killing at Feverstone. Assuming noone honest survived, keeping with odious acts, the majority of a populace could quite possibly believe that the K.R. caused a massacre for unknown reasons.

 

For instance, you're a soldier in possession of a rare and near omnipotent weapon. You killed for it. You either never being it out, or you come up with a story explaining why you now have a weapon specifically reserved for an honorable cause. 

 

My take is the soldier lied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to the forums!

@Hoser. If memory serves correctly there are 2-3 more quotes about Dawnchant in the annotations. 

Annotations?  Wipes drool off face.  Where are there annotations?  I checked the Ars Arcanum hopefully, but found nothing. 

 

I think Binnut also has a point about people killing at Feverstone. Assuming noone honest survived, keeping with odious acts, the majority of a populace could quite possibly believe that the K.R. caused a massacre for unknown reasons.

 

For instance, you're a soldier in possession of a rare and near omnipotent weapon. You killed for it. You either never being it out, or you come up with a story explaining why you now have a weapon specifically reserved for an honorable cause. 

 

My take is the soldier lied.

Yeah.  It seems possible.  I think the Shardblade gainers might have some motivation to slag the Radiants. 

 

Assumption: current lighteyes are descended from people who acquired those weapons and armor, and the Radiants were the only lighteyes prior to the Recreance.  People were ruled by darkeyes in kingdoms.  Current beliefs are that lighteyes (not just Shardbearers) are divinely fitted to rule. 

 

Deduction: The new Shardbearers merged with the ruling class somehow and created beliefs justifying their rule over time.

The new Shardbearers could presumably (winners write history) create stories blaming massacres on the Radiants.  They could just as easily blame the other Shardbearers or minimize discussion of the massacres. 

 

Deduction: I don't see the survivors getting together and having a peaceful meeting to discuss a unified story after the Recreance scene.  I think trust between Shardbearers will take a while to develop.  In the meantime, the new Shardbearers probably scattered. 

 

The new Shardbearers could blame the massacre on the Radiants, but they don't really need to.  Who is going to argue with them?  Bring them to justice?  Might quickly makes right.

 

The non-Radiants might initially see being ruled by these new Shardbearers as a calamity, but that must have been stamped out long ago because of the current beliefs about lighteyes. 

 

Someone created a war that did not involve a Desolation and demonized the opponents.  The Radiants deserted suddenly.  Whoever justified that war has more motivation to paint the Radiants as evil (as I see it), particularly if they want to continue the war.  The logical candidate for people prosecuting the war is the ardentia, but I have speculated too far already. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:wacko: I feel the need to apologize if I have misled you. (Tequila is evil) when I say annotations I am refering to the quotes at the beginning of each chapter. Some kind soul posted ALL of them somewhere and several of them had references to the Dawn chant specifically. 

 

,BTW Iove the deductions, excellent way of procuring information while informing it is opinion

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Regarding the "betrayed" or "abandoned" semantics used for the KR: we have only seen one instance of the Recreance, which Dalinar witnessed in his vision. It's my understanding that represented only two orders. We don't know what the rest of the KR did that day.

 

EDIT: Wanted to add that I've thought that maybe, along the lines of the above, the "betrayal" might have been the rest of the KR refusing to give up their Blades and Plate. Honor in the vision said, "this is the first of them, this was the last"...or something to that effect. Which always seemed a bit strange considering that wasn't all of the KR.

Edited by Dros
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would it make sense that Jezrien was the founder of Vorinism? I mean, how many times when Vorinism is brought up do we hear about Jezrien? It's Jezrian this, and Jezrian that. Very few other Heralds are invoked. Yes, the Almighty holds a place of prominence in Vorinism, but it almost seems like Jezrian is the equal of the Almighty the way they speak of him.

 

What if the Day of Recreance was the direct result of the Knights Radiant discovering that the Heralds had abandoned their own oaths when they discovered that Jezrien was the hand that controlled the church? What if they not only discovered that the Heralds had abandoned their oaths, but that Jezrien himself was acting against them personally.

 

If Jezrian was the founder of Vorinism, would it be all that far fetched that the Sunmaker was another Herald who felt that Jezrian was taking too much temporal power upon himself, or felt that he was trying to supplant the Almighty? Or even a Herald that was just plain pissed about the Day of Recreance and had decided that it was time for Jezrien to stop playing god.

 

I know, this is all just conjecture, but what better way to influence the world than through a religion of your own making? What better place to hide in plain sight than as the head of the church?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In WOK Chap 55, Sigzil is describing a distant city and mentions that they worship Jezrien as the only god.  He also mentions that Vorin peoples would consider that religion a splinter group.  Depending on how far in the past those religions split, the worship of Jezrien may represent a part of historical Vorinism that was changed by the Sunmaker.

 

Maybe Jezrien was the Sunmaker.  He got tired of having loads of worshippers, perhaps because he felt unworthy (after giving up on the Oathpact).  Or perhaps he just wanted to distance himself from the people because he was so broken from the tortures between the desolations.

 

I think he would find hiding easier if he deflected the focal point of a religion away from himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the betrayal of the KR might stem from events after the day of Recreance.  We know from Dalinar's vision The KR gave up their shards to a bunch of soldiers or at least two orders did, but who beyond those there would know the new shardbearers were not KR?  The new shardbearers could have posed as KR or just let everyone assume they were KR, but not follow their ideals.  The new bearers then could take advantage of a populace that relied on the KR for protection and trusted them to act honorably and ethically to gain power, prestige, and wealth.  I think one of Jasnah's notes hints at this where it talks about tariffs at Urithiru becoming unreasonable and showing the true nature of the so called Radiants.  

 

Edit: I found the note it is at the beginning of Chapter 46.

Edited by kattattack22
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the betrayal of the KR might stem from events after the day of Recreance.  We know from Dalinar's vision The KR gave up their shards to a bunch of soldiers or at least two orders did, but who beyond those there would know the new shardbearers were not KR?  The new shardbearers could have posed as KR or just let everyone assume they were KR, but not follow their ideals.  The new bearers then could take advantage of a populace that relied on the KR for protection and trusted them to act honorably and ethically to gain power, prestige, and wealth.  I think one of Jasnah's notes hints at this where it talks about tariffs at Urithiru becoming unreasonable and showing the true nature of the so called Radiants.  

 

Edit: I found the note it is at the beginning of Chapter 46.

 

That is a very interesting thought, kat. I honestly never thought of that. I'm trying to think of what I know about the timeline, but at the moment I can't think of anything that might counter that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The actions of the soldiers that picked up the discarded Shards may have been a factor, but I seriously doubt that the church wouldn't have noticed the difference. Even in the event that they failed to do so initially, over time it would have become apparent. The church chose to advocate the discrediting of the Knights Radiant even after evidence would have proven they had simply retired from service. The church made a concerted effort to villainize the Knights Radiant for there own purposes.

 

The Knights Radiant abandoned Urithiru before the day of Recreance. We don't know how long before, but it may have been a significant amount of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To her surprise, Jasnah answered without hesitation. "Urithiru was said to be the center of the Silver Kingdoms, a city that held ten thrones, one for each king. It was the most majestic, most amazing, most important city in all the world."

"Really? Why hadn't I heard of it before?"

"Because it was abandoned even before the Lost Radiants turned against mankind. Most scholars consider it just a myth. The ardents refuse to speak of it, due to its association with the Radiants, and therefore, the first major failure of Vorinism.Much of what we do know about the city comes from fragments of lost works quoted by classical scholars. Many of those classical works have, themselves, survived only in pieces. Indeed, the single complete work we have from early years is The Way of Kings, and that is only because of the Vanrial's efforts."

Ch. 45 TWoK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the betrayal of the KR might stem from events after the day of Recreance.  We know from Dalinar's vision The KR gave up their shards to a bunch of soldiers or at least two orders did, but who beyond those there would know the new shardbearers were not KR?  The new shardbearers could have posed as KR or just let everyone assume they were KR, but not follow their ideals.  The new bearers then could take advantage of a populace that relied on the KR for protection and trusted them to act honorably and ethically to gain power, prestige, and wealth.  I think one of Jasnah's notes hints at this where it talks about tariffs at Urithiru becoming unreasonable and showing the true nature of the so called Radiants.  

 

Edit: I found the note it is at the beginning of Chapter 46.

The more I think about this, the less credible it seems.  While one could imagine that if the new Shardbearers worked together and came up with a unified story and wiped out all other survivors of the event, they could sell the story to people who didn't really know the Radiants for a short time.  There are problems with this scenario. 

  • I can't imagine the new Shardbearers trusting each other enough to work together
  • If they don't work together, I doubt they organize a massacre
  • People are familiar enough with the Radiants that the lack of glyphs, glowing colors, infusing, powers and purpose would be noticeable.
  • Powerful forces like the nobility and the clergy would know the difference
  • The Radiants lived across Alethela.  People would have known them.  People would know if they never came back or returned without the armor, when others had it. 
  • If the new Shardbearers stayed anywhere for long, the differences would become apparent.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To her surprise, Jasnah answered without hesitation. "Urithiru was said to be the center of the Silver Kingdoms, a city that held ten thrones, one for each king. It was the most majestic, most amazing, most important city in all the world."

"Really? Why hadn't I heard of it before?"

"Because it was abandoned even before the Lost Radiants turned against mankind. Most scholars consider it just a myth. The ardents refuse to speak of it, due to its association with the Radiants, and therefore, the first major failure of Vorinism.Much of what we do know about the city comes from fragments of lost works quoted by classical scholars. Many of those classical works have, themselves, survived only in pieces. Indeed, the single complete work we have from early years is The Way of Kings, and that is only because of the Vanrial's efforts."

Ch. 45 TWoK

 

That actually might add a little credence to the theory. Urithiru was abandoned before the Lost Radiants betrayed mankind, i.e. the KR left and abandoned Urithiru, while the soldiers who took the Plate and Blade began to seriously take advantage of their new found weapons with little interest in maintaining Urithiru. Difficult to reconcile that the Day of Recreance is considered the day the KR left, though. If was still considered the day they left back then, then no one would think the dudes running around in Plate and Blade were KRs.

 

  •  

    The more I think about this, the less credible it seems.  While one could imagine that if the new Shardbearers worked together and came up with a unified story and wiped out all other survivors of the event, they could sell the story to people who didn't really know the Radiants for a short time.  There are problems with this scenario. 

    • I can't imagine the new Shardbearers trusting each other enough to work together
    • If they don't work together, I doubt they organize a massacre
    • People are familiar enough with the Radiants that the lack of glyphs, glowing colors, infusing, powers and purpose would be noticeable.
    • Powerful forces like the nobility and the clergy would know the difference
    • The Radiants lived across Alethela.  People would have known them.  People would know if they never came back or returned without the armor, when others had it. 
    • If the new Shardbearers stayed anywhere for long, the differences would become apparent.
    •  

Imagine how much chaos might have been wrought by the KRs abandoning their plate and blade. We saw that the soldiers immediately began to kill each other to take ownership of the items. I imagine the victors could then carry out every whim or fancy they had ever imagined. I doubt they stayed together and I bet even if it took one month to figure out, the rumors of the evil acts of the KR would be impossible to destroy. Rumors become accepted fact, which becomes myth and legends, etc. The mob mentality would ultimately write the story of the KRs who betrayed mankind.

Edited by Dros
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To her surprise, Jasnah answered without hesitation. "Urithiru was said to be the center of the Silver Kingdoms, a city that held ten thrones, one for each king. It was the most majestic, most amazing, most important city in all the world."

"Really? Why hadn't I heard of it before?"

"Because it was abandoned even before the Lost Radiants turned against mankind. Most scholars consider it just a myth. The ardents refuse to speak of it, due to its association with the Radiants, and therefore, the first major failure of Vorinism.Much of what we do know about the city comes from fragments of lost works quoted by classical scholars. Many of those classical works have, themselves, survived only in pieces. Indeed, the single complete work we have from early years is The Way of Kings, and that is only because of the Vanrial's efforts."

Ch. 45 TWoK

 

Hmm, I had forgotten that they left Urithiru before the betrayal.  It could be taken as a sign of things to come.  First the KR abandon their city and holding the kingdoms together.  Later they abandon their duties in protecting the people.  Not to mention leaving them at the mercy of new lighteyes taking advantage of the powerful armor and weapons they left behind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

/>I doubt they stayed together and I bet even if it took one month to figure out, the rumors of the evil acts of the KR would be impossible to destroy. Rumors become accepted fact, which becomes myth and legends, etc. The mob mentality would ultimately write the story of the KRs who betrayed mankind.

Mobs don't write history. The fact is, that this history was written by the church and spread to the populace through its ardents. The Day of Recreance is a recorded event. It is the day the Knights Radiant betrayed mankind. This is pretty specific, the day, not The Time of Recreance, or The Year of Recreance, but The Day of Recreance.

This isn't a history relating specifically to events that occurred in Alethkar, or Jah Keved, in regards to the Knights Radiant, it is a common theme known in lands far and wide. The Shards didn't travel very far. Most of the Shards in the known lands are in Alethkar, with about twenty sets in Jah Keved. Outside of those two nations, most nations are lucky to have a single set of Shards.

The Day of Recreance is known through every nation that we've encountered. This tale has crossed language barriers, mountain ranges, and braved High Storms. It has persisted for hundreds of years. If this tale wasn't championed by the church, how did it travel so far, and last so long? We don't even have any specifics on it outside of the vision that Dalinar witnessed.

/>"Legends. The Recreance is an event so old, it might as well be in the shadowdays. What did they Radiants really do? Why did they do it? We don't know."

Ch. 16 TWoK

/>The Voidbringers again. many people in more rurual places whispered of them and other monsters of the dark. The Raspings, or the stormwhispers, or even the dreaded nightspren. Shallan had been taught by stern tutors that these were superstion, fabrications of the Lost Radiants, who used tales of monsters to justify their domination of mankind.

The ardents taught something else. They spoke of the Lost Radiants-called the Knights Radiant then-fighting off Voidbringers during the war to hold Roshar. According to these teachings, it was only after defeating the Voidbringers-and the departure of the Heralds-that the Radiants had fallen.

Ch. 42 TWoK

All we know is that the Knights Radiant betrayed mankind. All we know is what the church teaches. There are no specifics about how they betrayed mankind, or who they betrayed specifically, or why it was considered a betrayal. There isn't any social memory of this event, no one has a clue what the Radiants did that was so bad, they just know what they were taught. They just know what the ardents told them.

Edited by Gloom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Day of Recreance is a recorded event. It is the day the Knights Radiant betrayed mankind. This is pretty specific, the day, not The Time of Recreance, or The Year of Recreance, but The Day of Recreance.

 

Yep, that's the one that can't be reconciled with the above theory. You're right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IceBaka

Sigzil simplified things a bit too much.  The Emuli worship Jezrien as the Prime Kadasix, but they still worship the Heralds on a lesser, more individual basis as simply "kadasix".  That's where Shalash was destroying the artwork of herself in the Baxil Interlude.

 

Do we have an official confirmation about this? I'd beg you to give me the quote. Thanks in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do we have an official confirmation about this? I'd beg you to give me the quote. Thanks in advance.

 

 

Umm...<whistling nervously>...I uh...don't think he can...technically...legally...in consistency with currently established rules. :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...