Joel is a Rithmatist (spoilers)

[junior]

Another advantage of the string is, you could have markings on the string that would allow you to accurately and quickly identify the four, six, or nine bindpoints on the circle made using the string. Thus, you could have more than one string to make different sized circles and be able to have substantially perfect circles with substantially perfect bindpoint location.

 

Strings stretch and fray, and that would end up distorting the distance involved between each point.  Compasses are explicitly mentioned in the book, but with the caveat that free-handing everything is much faster.  So people are aware of the potential for tools to help.  It's just that they slow the process down.

 

On another note, I'm wondering if Joel's abilities are purely the result of his practice.  He's scarily good at not just eyeballing geometric figures, but at math in general.  He supplies the answer to Layton's question just by glancing at the board while Layton is writing the problem - while Joel is simultaneously completing the homework that he'd forgotten about.  Sanderson's not above slipping in hints about additional magic systems in the stories that he writes.  Elantris has an example with a character (a foreigner) who suddenly reveals that he's quite a bit more capable than previously thought when push comes to shove (without stealing the limelight from the main characters).  Perhaps there's a third non-human force in the conflict that's been helping humans, but in a way that has gone unnoticed up until now?

 

 

Come to think of it, steampunk definitely makes itself felt in the book.  And a character at one point proclaims that 'Da Vinci' (presumably Leonardo) was a hack.  Maybe there's something important about that?

[Shardlet]

Strings stretch and fray, and that would end up distorting the distance involved between each point.  Compasses are explicitly mentioned in the book, but with the caveat that free-handing everything is much faster.  So people are aware of the potential for tools to help.  It's just that they slow the process down.

 

It depends on what material the string is made out of.  There are several ways (as well as materials) I can think of off-hand that would mitigate stretching and fraying.  A fine braided wire should do the job nicely.  Should be durable, have minimal stretching, and be very flexible with minimal kinking.  I can't help but think that the benefit of near geometric perfection would outweigh a few moments extra time spent to make it.  In any case it would take a fair amount of time to freehand draw a circle of the size you would need for a LoW that even approaches reasonably perfect.  I would think that with two rithmatists working, it would not only be more perfect, but would also be quicker. 

 

I agree that there is more to Joel's ability than just practice.  Certainly the practice makes a difference, but it is clear to me that he has a substantially heightened apptitude.

 

A compass the size necessary to draw the circles would be necessarily huge and cumbersome.  This certainly would take up more time. 

[Crysanja]

maybe the quality of the circle does not matter so much when you are allready in a loosing fight.

you might get a little more time out of it, but the point is, not to get to a point were youre circle gets attacked.

 

so its a realy a question about speed, to get youre calk out and take quick advantage.

 

sure you want a good circle, thats why you train so much, but speed is key.

[Shardlet]

The strategy you choose is always going to be based upon the circumstances you are in.  The book makes it pretty clear that you select your strategy based upon your abillities and the circumstances of the fight.  There is no 'best strategy' for all circumstances.  Sometimes a quick and simple defense (e.g., Ballintain or Sumsion) is better while at other times a more elaborate defense (e.g., Taylor or Easton) is better.  Just because you have chalk on a wire doesn't mean you have to use it.  But, can you deny that it would be a very useful tool?

[Stairdweller]

It seems like chalk-on-a-wire would be more trouble than it is worth. A tool like that is harder to get good results with than it might seem; you need to be absolutely certain that nothing fouls the string as you form the circle, including whatever you are using to secure it. For example, if you have a friend hold the string, her body, or even her fingers as she holds the string to the ground might get in the way of the string. If a stake is used, the string wrapping around the stake will cause it to shorten and you will draw a spiral rather than a circle,

I think the in-world idea is that, if you have tools to draw circles, you won't practice your freehand skills and that, when the tool inevitably malfunctions, you will not have the eye to note a decreasing circle until you get to the end (and waste a lot of time).

[Shardlet]

So many simple work-arounds to your arguments.  Put a small ring or loop at the other end of the wire.  the spike goes through the ring and the spike has a reasonable point on it.  It freely spins with no winding.  Rithmatist 1 holds the spike in place while rithmatist 2 draws.  The point should enable relatively easy stability eve without being driven.  With a marginal amount of care with such a tool, you should be able to quickly draw a very good circle. 

 

Such a tool does not replace developing freehand drawing skills.  It is simply another tool.  Just like when you go to school to become an engineer.  They teach you all kinds of math skills that you will frequently not use because you have a software package to do the actual number crunching (not a perfect analogy I know).  There will be times when using the wire is a good idea and there will be times when freehand is a good idea.  Sometimes a framing hammer will work more effectively than a machinist's hammer and vice versa. 

[Stairdweller]

I concede the point that practicing with a circle-making tool doesn't necessarily mean one can't also be a reasonably good freehander.

Perhaps adult rithmatists, at Nebrask, do use a tool to assist in circle making, and we just haven't seen one do so yet; all of the rithmatic battles so far have either been duels at a school, etudents defending themselves, or achool-run melees. I don't think it is beyond the bounds of reason for circle-drawing tools to be forbidden to students, in much the way that geology students are forbidden to use a protractor when drawing lines of slope in mapping classes.

However, I still think there are some problems with the string tool. If anything causes the string to shorten even slightly during the drawing of the circle, (which happens all the time with these kinds of tools) you end up with an obvious imperfetion in the circle. Even a radius shortening of a few milimetres would mean that the line ends didn't mate properly. Joel, when explaining the reason that rithmatists don't use strings, states that it is more important to have a circle where the flaws aren't obvious than to have a perfect circle, A closer-to-perfect circle with a tiny mismatch where the line ends meet would be less defensible than a freehand, slightly ellipsoid circle because the flaw in the near-perfect one would be very obvious to the rithmatist's opponent.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Apparently there is unknown marks, and other things that are unknown. I wonder could he already be a rithmatist, but his powers are kind of locked/blocked. If chalk and charcoal can be used, what about another medium?

[Wrath]

My feeling, which admittedly is just instinct at this point, is that Joel is a Rithmatist in waiting - that the Shadowblaze recognised his potential but deliberately held off from giving him the powers. It reminds me of the end of a book called Paladin of Souls in which the main character loses her powers and ends up being captured as a result, only for her divine patron to restore her sainthood at exactly the moment when it would be the most useful.

Joel might just be more useful as a normal human right now than as a Rithmatist in terms of the greater goals.

[dyring]

About the large circle with several rithmatists in it.

 

You just loose to much, aka, binpoints, compared to several circles next to eachothers. You get more bindpoints, you still have a protected side, and, you are able to use lines of forbiddance to block the dangerous sides while leaving the protected ones open. In a multi-rithmatist circle that just would not work without blocking for others.

[WindFaery]

I think it is very compelling that Joel saw the Shadowblaze.  I also think Nalizar's comments about Joel are very compelling and clearly indicate that Joel is not a Rithmatist (yet?).  But, his words also indicate that Joel is someone very special and important.  It is clear from Melody's ability with Chalklings (I think hers deserve a capital "C") that she also is special and important.  The two of them together have shown to be a very formidable team.  I think that Joel will eventually have Rithmatic ability.  His chalklings are poor enough that I suspect he and Melody will continue to be a team (even more formidable with Joel being able to handle the basic lines with precision while Melody focuses on crazy powerful Chalklings).  But I don't think he will gain the abilities until the climax or just before the climax of the next book at the earliest.  In fact, I think Book 3 is more likely.

 

I think this is incredibly probable.

 

Also, has anyone thought that the reason Joel is not a Rithmatist is that he has already developed is individual strengths and therefore he needs to bond with a specific Shadowblaze. One who's strength matches his own. this would also make sense as to why it's easier when they're younger to on because the humans have not developed a specialized skill, and so are open to bonding with whichever one picks them.

[jesslynh]

I think this is incredibly probable.

 

Also, has anyone thought that the reason Joel is not a Rithmatist is that he has already developed is individual strengths and therefore he needs to bond with a specific Shadowblaze. One who's strength matches his own. this would also make sense as to why it's easier when they're younger to on because the humans have not developed a specialized skill, and so are open to bonding with whichever one picks them.

This.

 

I think that Joel may need to bond with the 'good' version of a Forbidden--whatever that may be--that's why the Shadowblaze came, then ran away.  It may have knew/realized that Joel needed the "big guy"--for all we know it may have gone to get it....

[drepson]

This.

 

I think that Joel may need to bond with the 'good' version of a Forbidden--whatever that may be--that's why the Shadowblaze came, then ran away.  It may have knew/realized that Joel needed the "big guy"--for all we know it may have gone to get it....

it said he was their for most of an hour after the shadowblaze left, the church was large but it couldn't extend to under other house because it would be notice so for it to take that long it would have to be quite deep but then it would be hard to support the church on top maybe it just didn't know what to do he could need a good forbidden but I don't think the temple supply's them but their were still meant to be other draws of shadow blazes hidden on cliffs maybe he will fine one when looking for how his dad found the line of silencing

 

P.S isn't it forgotten not forbidden?

Edited May 6, 2015 by drepson

[WayneSpren]

i think the only reason Joel didnt become a rithmatist is, that he carried a clockwork coin while in the testing-camber.

guess the Shadowblaze would have moved into the body of Joel or made some other simbiotic bound with him, but the clockwork scarred it away.

 

usualy Shadowblazes dont get scarred away in the testings, because 8 year olds dont carry clockwork gold coins.

maybe it is just the running clockwork of the clockwork coin - Joel did wind it up before.

 

What about the rich Rithmatic kids? Melody and the knight-senator's son, for example, have a lot of money. I think it's highly improbable that none of them had any coins on them.

[Yolomcsweger233]

Twins would be so nice as a team, they would practically be a hive mind

 

Edit: well twins that would get along of course.

 

Edit2:

It depends on what material the string is made out of.  There are several ways (as well as materials) I can think of off-hand that would mitigate stretching and fraying.  A fine braided wire should do the job nicely.  Should be durable, have minimal stretching, and be very flexible with minimal kinking.  I can't help but think that the benefit of near geometric perfection would outweigh a few moments extra time spent to make it.  In any case it would take a fair amount of time to freehand draw a circle of the size you would need for a LoW that even approaches reasonably perfect.  I would think that with two rithmatists working, it would not only be more perfect, but would also be quicker. 

 

I agree that there is more to Joel's ability than just practice.  Certainly the practice makes a difference, but it is clear to me that he has a substantially heightened apptitude.

 

A compass the size necessary to draw the circles would be necessarily huge and cumbersome.  This certainly would take up more time.

True but what is his IQ, you see he doesn't have many friends, and is quite strange in many conversations.  Maybe it is in the 200's.  There was once (In real life) a guy with over 300 in IQ and got into Harvard at the age of 12.   So ya, maybeJoel just has a much higher IQ that everyone else.

Edited November 12, 2015 by WeiryWriter
please do not doube post, use the edit feature

[Shardlet]

His IQ may be fairly high, but IQ has little if anything to do with dexterity.  However, a high IQ could help him judge the precision of his drawings and thereby make his practices mcuh more efficient since he would not have to measure, etc. in order to see what needs to be improved.

[Yolomcsweger233]

You have to think, which is faster, drawing a large c or drawing an o.  I think drawing a large c is faster, but that maybe just me.

 

Edit: True but he did work for years at Dexterity, but his IQ may be helping him eyeball the stuff that the professor was giving him

Edited November 12, 2015 by WeiryWriter
please do not double post, use the edit feature

[Stormgate]

Maybe he partially bonded the Shadowblaze, and the next book will be, in part, about him fully bonding it.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

If there is new lore, what if his father found another way to create a rithmatist or create a new version of one? It is said there ar only so many possible, new ones can only be created when old ones died. He needs only find a way to activate and use it.

A way to create more or different version would revolutionize the art. He was offered funds for his minor discoveries, but something of this scale could get him his own patent of nobility and lands. Revolutionizing magic might make it possible to even retake their original homeland.

[Abubaker_G]

basically hes going to stab and kill another rithmatist, then spike himself to become one using hemalurgy

[Arrae]

Rithmatist isn't Cosmere, unfortunately. There's no way to get Hemalurgy working in the Rithmatist world.

[Datan Nomlibash]

My theory is that Joel could have been a rithmatist but since the "good" sentient chalklings or shadow blazes or whatever seem to be very rule oriented his age scared them off. Basically the shadowblaze saw him as a potential rithmatist and approached but on closer inspection he was not the age he was suppose to be and it freaked out and ran.

[Stormgate]

Perhaps it sensed the touch of a Forgotten, and decided to investigate or something.

[Jondesu]

I didn't read the whole thread yet (sorry), but I had a new theory as I reread the scene with the Shadowblaze last night. What if Joel is going to bond with a different type of "good" chalkler (my new term for the types of creatures like the Shadowblaze and the Forgotten), just like there were obviously different types of Forgotten/bad Chalklers? Nalizar spoke of others like him having trouble understanding time and the clocks, but not him. Maybe Joel's logic and mindset didn't attract that Shadowblaze, but he'll end up bonding a different type?

Edit: Well, dust, it's not a new theory, but consider me a proponent.

jW

Edited March 22, 2016 by Jondesu

[Aon tEhe]

I'ma lay it out for ya nice and easy. He isn't. Reread the part right after seeing the Shadowblaze. He truly wanted to make the drawing come to life. But it didn't. I'm sorry, but all other arguments are invalid. This is the plain and simple truth. He likely will in the next book, but not now. Sorry.