Everstorm summoning (with extra cosmere spoilers)

[Chicken]

So I finally noticed the oddity about everstorm. It's summoned by singing, which seems unprecedented. So far the supernatural stuff we've seen on Roshar is about bonding (or at least trapping) spren and involves oaths to "strengthen" spren bonds (or something) and bunches of Stormlight and there doesn't seem to be any singing about it. Old Magic is another supernatural thing that's related to a certain high level spren and also has nothing to do with singing or music (far as we know). Everstorm might've needed bonding those voidspren but happened with singing and zero Stormlight usage. Eshonai's tiny storm demonstration for masses also happened in a similar manner aka completely unlike Surgebinding/Old Magic.

 

This seem to point to an entirely different kind of magic, one that's powered by some nonStormlight power source without apparent user resource limits accessed by singing. Venli's mention of something "waiting and gathering" when talking about everstorm sounds a lot like the "Dor buildup" from Elantris. Stormforms (at least their leaders) also seemed compelled to unleash the everstorm; not like the physical pain Dor put on the guy who seemed most likely to let it out, but some kind of psychological push. Since stormspren are bits of Odium and a similarity to Elantris is noticed, a voidbringer starts to look a lot like an Elantrian.

 

So, out of all cosmere magics so far, the everstorm (which is presumably voidbinding) is most reminiscent of AonDor: some sort of power gathers and builds over time, some beings with a connection to a Shard is capable of letting it out by performing specific actions, the power starts pushing at those beings in an attempt to get free, the power gushes out once they open a hole, later on all Shard connected beings are free to use their shiny new magic powers.

 

Seems legit to me but I haven't actually trawled through masses of WoBs. Does anything contradict this? And it'd make a cool bit of thematic artsy thingy if Odium is exactly like Devotion except some key inversions.

[natc]

Roshar also has a correlation to vibrations/frequency, looking at all the cities whose natural foundations can be generated by cymatics. The Shattered Plains themselves. The entire Alethi script looking like something I'd read off of the readout of a seismograph or sound editing program. I believed that one vision of Kaladin riding the storm also had him see all the stormlight usage going on as light pulsations, but I forget if it's true. Haven't gotten to that part in my reread.

[The Honor Spren]

There's also the fact that humming makes soul casters work better, and that pattern hums a lot.

[Rockbud]

So, the suggestion of a similarity between AonDor and the parshendi songs might suggest that each of the different 'rythems' they attune to might be a way to access a shards power, like the varying shapes of Aons or the different metals in allomancy...

[Shadowspren]

In Elantris, we also see several ways of accessing the Dor; not all of them are used for good. 

 

1- Elantrains use AonDor 

2- The use of ChayShan (the Jindonese medetative martial arts) 

3- The magic used by the monks at the Dakhor monastery

 

Although #3 is mostly theorised as we don't know much about it, if indeed it is a magic of Dominion, then it shows that different shards allow different access to the Dor. Also, we know that Odium killed both shards on Sel, so he may have picked up a few tricks from those he killed, such as how his minions can access the magic systems. Thus explaining how there could be an overlap.

[DreamEternal]

I like the idea that Odium's investiture builds up berween desolations. Perhaps Heralds in Braize syphon some of this investiture to heal their wounds, and this is why this desolation was different: Only one herald wasn't enough to prevent five thousand years of build-up, unleashed in the form of a new storm.

Edited August 17, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Ansalem]

All kinds of Stormlight Archive spoilers are in this post. Plus a lot of speculation. (I probably should've made a separate post for this but eh, it fits here well enough... sorry about the lengthy rambling).

 

 

 

The Parshendi aren't singing their own songs, they're singing the songs that are always there with or without them. Attuning is sort of like changing the station on a radio that constantly repeats itself. For example the way that Eshonai's meeting with the Five is scheduled to a particular part of the Rhythm of Peace. Presumably that means everyone knows ahead of time when the Rhythm of Peace will be at that part. This is also why any two Listeners singing the same song are singing in time with each other even if they don't know the other is singing. (It's also why they call themselves the Listeners and not the Singers). They aren't telepathic as Jasnah hypothesized, they're simply all listening to the same radio station. I don't think the natural songs they hear come with lyrics, just the music, although who knows it could be either way. They clearly sing lyrics to some songs but it's not obvious whether the lyrics are inherent or added to the music. Sort of how when they speak, their sentence follows the cadence of the Rhythm they're Attuning.

 

It could be that all the Shards generate particular Rhythms that the Listeners can listen to. I don't think they all come from one Shard because then they would always have been Voidbringers, listening only to Odium's Rhythms. I doubt Odium would have a Rhythm of Peace, but Cultivation and Honor both could.

 

Or perhaps Roshar itself has its own Rhythms that the Shards can influence, like if you cover up a speaker it'll distort the music, since there is reason to believe the Listeners were on Roshar before any Shards arrived, and they certainly weren't all in slaveform then. (I think it's clear that the Rhythms are at least in some way required to change forms and slaveforms are described as formless, the form with no Rhythms "where is their music?", though it's also clearly the spren that grant the forms so maybe they could change without Rhythms as long as there were spren?). Either way, that would explain why Eshonai describes the new Rhythms as being altered versions of the old Rhythms (Amusement becomes Ridicule, for example) rather than just being entirely new Rhythms. It would also explain why the voidspren are required before they can Attune Odium's Rhythms. The voidspren are what allow a Listener to hear the distorted Rhythms (or perhaps the spren are what causes the distortion). I wonder if Cultivation's spren would reveal other versions. For that matter, what would happen if a Listener somehow did bond one of Honor's spren? Are Honor's Rhythms still around? The Rhythms being natural to Roshar itself also explains why cymatics appears to have such a strong influence there, though that could've happened after the Shards arrived. And, finally, it explains why only the Listeners can hear the Rhythms, because they are the only race that is native to Roshar (presumably).

 

Yeah, I like the second explanation best. The Rhythms were always a part of Roshar and the Shards react to them creating new versions. Listeners need to bond with Shard spren to distort the Rhythms and the distortion (or at least certain ones) somehow grants them powers. I wonder if any of the original Rhythms grant powers without the influence of a Shard (since it's been hinted that spren existed before the Shards arrived, presumably these are the Listener's spren, "they have their own spren"). If so that would mean there was a magic system on Roshar before Adonalsium shattered, it still exists in some form, and it relates to vibrations. If that's the case then it also means every Shard of Adonalsium would create its own Rhythms on Roshar, assuming they had their own spren.

 

So here's where the wild speculation starts. 

 

I'm reasonably certain that it's been said there are 3 forms of magic on Roshar but not specifically stated what all 3 are. It's been assumed by basically everyone that these are Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the Old Magic. Personally I think Surgebinding and Voidbinding are just opposites of the same magic system and the third magic is actually the Listener Rhythms, or more broadly cymatics in some way and what the Parshendi are doing isn't Voidbinding but more like Void Rhythms. The reason I say this is that (I could be remembering wrong but) I think that Brandon has said the smoky black stone Szeth gets in the beginning of WoK is like stormlight but not. That implies that Voidbinding would use that stuff instead of stormlight, and the Listeners clearly aren't using that, what they're doing comes directly from the Rhythms. I think it will be generated by the Everstorm and Voidbinders will start to show up who aren't Parshendi, though this leads me to wonder if this is the first Everstorm then how is Voidbinding known about? Perhaps the "voidlight" comes from something else, then, or perhaps it isn't actually the first Everstorm. Or it could be that Brandon doesn't consider the Old Magic to technically be a type of magic system for whatever reason. If I'm wrong then I'm going to venture a guess and say there are actually 4 forms of magic, not 3. If I'm right (big if, probably) then the Voidbringers are not Voidbinders, or at least the Voidbinders haven't appeared yet. The Voidbinders would probably join with the Voidbringers but I don't think the Parshendi are Voidbinding to summon the Everstorm, I think we haven't seen Voidbinding yet (maybe the creature in the vision in the Purelake was one or created by one though).

 

If what the Parshendi are doing is Voidbinding then Voidbinding is apparently positive magic somehow, since they can apparently just do it at will with no apparent cost. It seems strange that Surgebinding would be negative or neutral and Voidbinding would be positive. But the Rhythms could inherently be positive and stay positive when they're distorted by Odium. The Rhythms being positive might even be why Odium chose the Listeners as his agents. Then again maybe for some reason Odium would create a positive magic... not sure why though. This also would make the Rhythms potentially the most powerful form of magic on Roshar, maybe even the most powerful we've seen in the Cosmere so far depending on which Shards were influencing them at the moment. But it also means it's restricted to Roshar and the Listeners would probably all be slaveform on any other world, which makes me sad.

 

With all of that out of the way, I like the idea that the Oathpact was the way to prevent the Everstorm from building up by pushing the Investiture into the Heralds. However I think it would eventually have burst out even without the Parshendi summoning it directly because it doesn't make sense to me that the Rhythms are Odium's power even if I'm wrong about everything else. I think the Rhythms were just a convenient faucet for Odium but the dam would have burst eventually anyway.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Ansalem

[natc]

The recurring theme of vibrations on Roshar (alethi script, cymatics, that strange detail of humming actually improving soulcaster functionality) might support the idea that the rhythms are at least partially realmatically influenced and not entirely artificial.

[natc]

Bringing this back because I saw something about Rhythms in the AMA:

Q: Hypothetically, if all of the Listeners were to go extinct would the Rhythms still exist?

A: Yes.

Q: Are there any other species in the cosmere that also interact with the Rhythms like the listeners do? (Though not necessarily in the same way?)

A: Yes.

So definitely not entirely a Listener thing. Edited August 26, 2015 by natc

[teknopathetic]

I wish the question didn't say 'cosmere'. There could be fish on Roshar that interact with rhythms and technically that would count. We can easily guess rhythms are important to other things on Roshar. Waaaa

[DreamEternal]

Maybe... Or maybe the rhythms are a manifestation born of the cognitive realm in general, and any being with enough connection to the cognitive can perceive them in a way. Jasnah, for exemple, compared the parshendi drums with the rattling of the beads in shadesmar.

Edited August 26, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Awesomness]

We know the Listeners bond with a different kind of spren, in a different way than humans.

Every time they go out during a storm, they expose themselves to change form, bonding with whatever spren happens to cross in their way (that´s why they capture one before changing, to have a choice).

I think every time they bond with a spren and change form, they access new different rhythms. That would mean their sprens are related with the rhythm.

The old song says spren betrayed the Listeners and started bonding with humans. Possibly because they can provide them an experience that the parshendi can´t. We don´t see any evidence that parshendi´s spren have any sentience. They neither seem to have morals, the way the surgebinder´s spren does (even if they don´t quite agree). On the contrary, this spren seem to be simpler, more rustic and ruled with instincts.

 I think that´s the reason why the listeners are so influenced by the form they take.

Ok, I know there are lots of kinds of spren that are completely mindless, but they are related with higher sprens (windspren à Syl – creationspren à Pattern).

If the rhythms come from Roshar itself, and humans are alien to this planet, maybe the more the spren get close to humans, the more they gain sentience and lose their connection with nature and the rhythms. 

[Ari]

I wish the question didn't say 'cosmere'. There could be fish on Roshar that interact with rhythms and technically that would count. We can easily guess rhythms are important to other things on Roshar. Waaaa

 

Your problem isn't with Cosmere, it's with "species", or rather the fact that the questioner didn't qualify it with "intelligent," or perhaps you want to know if there are ones other than those depicted in the Stormlight Archive. If the Rhythms are going to exist independently of the Parshendi and be something other species can listen to, it by definition has to be something that's happening in the Cosmere.

[WindrunnerRadiant]

We know the Listeners bond with a different kind of spren, in a different way than humans.

Every time they go out during a storm, they expose themselves to change form, bonding with whatever spren happens to cross in their way (that´s why they capture one before changing, to have a choice).

I think every time they bond with a spren and change form, they access new different rhythms. That would mean their sprens are related with the rhythm.

The old song says spren betrayed the Listeners and started bonding with humans. Possibly because they can provide them an experience that the parshendi can´t. We don´t see any evidence that parshendi´s spren have any sentience. They neither seem to have morals, the way the surgebinder´s spren does (even if they don´t quite agree). On the contrary, this spren seem to be simpler, more rustic and ruled with instincts.

 I think that´s the reason why the listeners are so influenced by the form they take.

Ok, I know there are lots of kinds of spren that are completely mindless, but they are related with higher sprens (windspren à Syl – creationspren à Pattern).

If the rhythms come from Roshar itself, and humans are alien to this planet, maybe the more the spren get close to humans, the more they gain sentience and lose their connection with nature and the rhythms. 

 

Two things I want to say about this. One, we don't know that the spren really betrayed the Listeners. Just because the Old Song says it doesn't make it true; Brandon has been known to have false perceptions in his books that the characters take as fact but that we later find to be true. It could be that Odium tainted the spren the Listeners bonded and the spren that humans bond are instead tainted by Honor and Cultivation and this simply causes the Listeners to believe themselves betrayed.

 

The other thing is that, rather than having a greater disconnect to nature, when spren bond humans they seem to have an even greater influence on their surroundings through the Nahel bond and Surgebinding. Although seeing as they somewhat bend and break the laws of nature through Surgebinding, there could be a disconnect.

[Ari]

Reading back over some Mistborn stuff, I wonder if there's some overlap between the Rhythms the Listeners can attune to, and the pulses emitted by both Allomancy and Shards like Ruin excercising their powers.

[natc]

IIRC don't feruchemical pulses exist too? Harder to notice, but there?

[Ari]

IIRC don't feruchemical pulses exist too? Harder to notice, but there?

 

I think Brandon said that an allomancer could probably train to detect Feruchemical pulses, yeah, but that it would be very difficult. That's part of what got me on the train of thought that the pulses could be very similar to the rhythms. (That and I have a similar idea in something I'm writing myself)