Spoilers!!! A new highprince

[Moash]

This was not my theory, someone mentioned this on some other site and I thought it deserved to be brought up if it had not already. The theory stated that Amaram would take over the role of Highprince in the aftermath of the death of sadeas as he was now essentially an enemy of Dalinar. Does this sound feasible to you guys?

[ParadoxicalZen]

This could actually be worth something. It would make sense, given how prominent Amaram is. It is something i'd like to see as it would provide a fair bit of drama

[cem]

I think society would frown on that as a certain blonde/black haired gentleman said. Amaram's reputation is ruined, while Dalinar's is on the rise. Alethi elite would never side with Amaram right now and he doesn't have the power the take the princedom by force. Besides, three of the four new Radiants have reasons to hate Amaram, even if in Shallan's case it's misguided. If he forced a direct confrontation with Dalinar as things stand, especially in Urithiru, he'd probably just get the axe.

[ParadoxicalZen]

But we're not quite sure how much influence the Sons of Honour have exactly although you are right. it would be hard/pointless for him to force a confrontation, but perhaps with Ialai's backing

[IAmTheBeard]

Restares, then?

[DreamEternal]

But if it was revealed that Adolin killed Torol Sadeas, Dalinar and the New Radiants would lose all their credibility, wouldn't they? I mean, Adolin did a terrible job covering his tracks, and he killed Sadeas close to the ace where their patrols met. The only way it could be worse was if a neutral highprince had been there before the two were left alone too.

[hoser]

Adolin was alone and far from the rest of his patrol (see quote from Adolin's point of view in Chapter 89 below).  Although if Brandon wants, someone will have seen it.  I don't know about losing credibility, either.  Just as Sadeas could get away with his betrayal at the Tower because it wasn't "public," the Alethi might accept the assassination of a discredited leader in private and just move on.  It seems like a critical mass of important people who want to bring Dalinar and Adolin down is needed.  While I imagine Ialai will be upset, I don't understand Highprince succession well enough to know if anyone will even care what she thinks.  The Diagram can do their plotting, but Kaladin can undermine Graves easily and who else does the Diagram control that matters? 

As usual, I think Brandon has enough levers to make things work out the way he thinks the story needs to go. 

He turned around, realizing he'd gotten far from the rest of his scouting party.

[Patrick Star]

three of the four new Radiants have reasons to hate Amaram

 

I'd actually consider it to be all of the Radiants.  I mean, Kaladin is technically Renarin's boss right now, and I don't see Renarin as being someone who would let Amaram get away with what he did to Kal.

[The Honor Spren]

I'd actually consider it to be all of the Radiants.  I mean, Kaladin is technically Renarin's boss right now, and I don't see Renarin as being someone who would let Amaram get away with what he did to Kal.

I am offend! Those five aren't the only Radiants!

LIFT

[maxal]

Amaram as the next Highprince has been one of my theories for while... I have jungle with the idea Dalinar, despite being massively angry at his son, would try to protect Adolin by stricking a deal with the Sadeas. In exchange for Adolin's safety, he drops the accusation against Amaram, worst he openly supports his candidature and he awards the Sadeas princedom (now Amaram), a few Shards including his son's.

 

I do not know how much faith I put into this one, but it has crossed my mind.

[Oudeis]

Lift doesn't have cause to specifically hate Amaram, but while we're talking other Radiants, we know Jasnah hates him.

 

I wondered this once. Succession does seem to work along terms similar to Earth primogeniture. Sadeas never mentioned having a kid, but seeing how long he's been married I'd be surprised if he didn't. If he doesn't, what happens? Does the King simply get the right to hand over the Highprincedom? I feel like there was someone Gavilar elevated to Highprince after the current Highprince was killed in the Unification War.

 

That would be... so ideal for the Kholinar clan. Give it to Renarin, or Shallan. Or braize, give it to Kaladin. At this moment, all of Alethkar would accept any of those choices. Ialai would be upset, but almost all of her power is contingent upon being the wife of a Highprince (Highprincess?). Surely she'd still have some wealth, a few connections, and of course her own mind, but her spies need to be paid, and without the constant and large revenues of ruling a small country she'd lose a lot of her agency.

 

Eventually, even if the truth does come out, it won't matter. There will be upcry and hue, but unless someone else rises up there's no one to champion the call. It would be like the Tower; Alethi nobility is excellent at adapting to circumstances as they are. None of them will be so interested in "Truth" or "Justice" that they'll push to get a KennedyKholin convicted of murder.

 

Maxal: Why on Roshar would any of that happen? Worst-case scenario, Adolin gets caught. We already know Elhokar can simply pardon any crime.

 

The literal worst thing likely to happen is that Dalinar gets upset at Adolin for his disgraceful act, and/or Adolin suffers shame and exiles himself or accepts punishment.

 

If the Highprincedom is vacant for Amaram to be nominated, then who is it Dalinar is trying to appease? And if Sadeas has a successor to step up and challenge the Kholins, then there's no need to promote anyone.

 

And why would Ialai or anyone else want Amaram pardoned? What would they have to gain by that? Torol himself barely liked Amaram; certainly no one else in the Sadeas house seemed enough on his side to spend incredibly valuable political capital restoring him to favor. And even if his actual crimes were forgiven, he's been humiliated and shown to be a craven fool. Alethi politics are cutthroat and vicious. Amaram wouldn't find allies or last a season if he were given a Highprincedom now.

[maxal]

 

Maxal: Why on Roshar would any of that happen? Worst-case scenario, Adolin gets caught. We already know Elhokar can simply pardon any crime.

 

The literal worst thing likely to happen is that Dalinar gets upset at Adolin for his disgraceful act, and/or Adolin suffers shame and exiles himself or accepts punishment.

 

If the Highprincedom is vacant for Amaram to be nominated, then who is it Dalinar is trying to appease? And if Sadeas has a successor to step up and challenge the Kholins, then there's no need to promote anyone.

 

And why would Ialai or anyone else want Amaram pardoned? What would they have to gain by that? Torol himself barely liked Amaram; certainly no one else in the Sadeas house seemed enough on his side to spend incredibly valuable political capital restoring him to favor. And even if his actual crimes were forgiven, he's been humiliated and shown to be a craven fool. Alethi politics are cutthroat and vicious. Amaram wouldn't find allies or last a season if he were given a Highprincedom now.

 

Well... I did state I was not sure how much faith I put into this "theory". I was certainly not trying to bring it forward as anything serious, but it has crossed my mind.

 

Why?

 

Ialai finds out about Adolin's involvement in her late husband's death. However, that being the Alethi society, since there was no witness, as long as there is no formal accusation backed away with solid arguments, Adolin, even if suspected, would not be prosecuted. Sadeas got away with open betrayal, everyone knew he did it, but it could not be proved so he was allowed to walk free and everyone was fine with it, except for the Kholins. That being said, Ialai, upon finding enough clues, could incriminate Adolin and get him to be severly punish. The king can pardon him, true, but doing so may appear as him doing a favor to a relative: the other highprinces would not like it. It is a tricky situation. I am unsure how much latitude Elhokar would truly have in negociating his cousin's fate. 

 

Therefore, Ialai, providing she does find the truth and providing she does have enough solid facts to back her accusation, could make the Kholin heir fall which would seriously impede the Kholin family, unless she has other plans... She may decide to use the information to gain leverage against her enemies. Sadeas may not have liked Amaram, but who's to say Ialai felt the same? The may have common interest and decide him as the Highprince would serve them both. In other words, she could blackmail Dalinar: agree to my terms or I'll have your son's head on a pike. It strikes me as the kind of strategy she would use...

 

As for how the next Highprince is nominated in the advent the previous one dies without a heir? I assume he is chosen out of the most prominent Brightlords of the princedom: they may vote within themselves. By killing Yenev, Dalinar and Sadeas got Aladar in his place: they must have known the remaining Brightlords would support him...

 

Again, I would state this is, by far, not a solid theory, just a few thoughts I have had on how the story could conduct itself. It is also based on the feelings I have not everyone wants Adolin dead... with Dalinar becoming a Radiant, I would not be surprised to see other Highprinces try to use their lever to position the son against the father... Adolin is young, he is impulsive. Impossible none of the other Highprinces has had the thought their life would be easier if they could place the unmarried potentially influencable son instead of the father in the high seat.... Ialai could make this calculation herself, why she may even trust a wife into the lot.. marry him to someone owing her fealty... I mean, it is not entirely implausible.

[Chicken]

Shallan would side with Adolin in any sort of dispute and nobody who wants to live in Urithiru's protection against crashing storms will dare challenge her. Adolin is also buddies with the guy that beat Assassin in White. That's enough might to make anything right, Alethkar still runs on it. Dalinar isn't even needed. Best Ialai could do is get Adolin assassinated to push the Kaladin-Shallan narrative forward, which seems unlikely since Kaladin isn't there for now.

 

Roion will probably be replaced by some lighteyes of his camp we haven't seen before, dead highprinces seem to be replaced by their strongest brightlord (which is probably usually their own son), and Sadeas will probably have a similar new character successor for Ialai to slot in or she'll straight up become highprincess herself. Amaram lost his rep among Alethi court so he's unlikely to get anywhere unless he starts waving around Taln.

[maxal]

Shallan would side with Adolin in any sort of dispute and nobody who wants to live in Urithiru's protection against crashing storms will dare challenge her. Adolin is also buddies with the guy that beat Assassin in White. That's enough might to make anything right, Alethkar still runs on it. Dalinar isn't even needed. Best Ialai could do is get Adolin assassinated to push the Kaladin-Shallan narrative forward, which seems unlikely since Kaladin isn't there for now.

 

Roion will probably be replaced by some lighteyes of his camp we haven't seen before, dead highprinces seem to be replaced by their strongest brightlord (which is probably usually their own son), and Sadeas will probably have a similar new character successor for Ialai to slot in or she'll straight up become highprincess herself. Amaram lost his rep among Alethi court so he's unlikely to get anywhere unless he starts waving around Taln.

 

I fail to see why Ialai would want to push the Shallan/Kaladin union as there is no Shallan/Kaladin union. They had one moment in a chasm where they shared their past: nobody knows about that. After arriving at Urithiru, they have hardly talked at all. Whatever Shallan may or may not think about Kaladin, her will was firm into pursuing the romance with Adolin by the end of WoR. There is nobody in Urithiru that even remotedly aware of any interest there may or may not have in between Shallan and Kaladin.

 

Unless you meant kill Adolin to allow more book space to Kaladin/Shallan which would be a shame as these two currently have more then enough book space. Adolin is more interesting alive then dead anyway, but let's not get into this discussion. I've had it often enough.

 

As for Amaram, I doubt he lost much reputation. Nobody took any heeds to Kaladin's accusation and Dalinar has not formely prosecute him. I'd wager most of the high ranked lighteyes still view Amaram as a great man. His nomination to the seat of Highprince is not completely far-fetched. As for Roion... how high ranked is Jakamav? Would be neat to have both Amaram and Jakamav as the next Highprinces, which would seriously impair Dalinar's leadership. Just to troube things a bit more...

[Alfa]

Wouldn't be surprised, if the Highprincedom will be gain by duelling or something similar Alethi-like.

[maxal]

Wouldn't be surprised, if the Highprincedom will be gain by duelling or something similar Alethi-like.

 

Would be neat. I guess we are going to find out in book 3.

[Ascendant Warrior]

I wondered this once. Succession does seem to work along terms similar to Earth primogeniture. Sadeas never mentioned having a kid, but seeing how long he's been married I'd be surprised if he didn't. If he doesn't, what happens? Does the King simply get the right to hand over the Highprincedom? I feel like there was someone Gavilar elevated to Highprince after the current Highprince was killed in the Unification War.

 

It was actually Aladar who was appointed to High Prince after Sadeas killed Yenev. (Words of Radiance Ch. 55 The Rules of the Game).  It's the precedent the Kholins and Co use to get the Right of Challenge to take Sadeas down.

 

Edit: Upvote to Moash for literally reading my mind. I had just considered this the other day.

Edited July 29, 2015 by lord_mistborn4

[Stormsinger]

Yep, I think it's definitely Amaram

[Oudeis]

As for Amaram, I doubt he lost much reputation. Nobody took any heeds to Kaladin's accusation and Dalinar has not formely prosecute him. I'd wager most of the high ranked lighteyes still view Amaram as a great man. His nomination to the seat of Highprince is not completely far-fetched.

 

Yes, it is completely far-fetched. Dalinar denounced Amaram and proved his theft of a Shardblade in front of Highprinces and armies in the middle of the warcamp, as the last action he did before going off on a mission that ends with a bunch of people, himself included, refounding the Radiants (as a good thing, we have proof from the people in Urithiru) and basically proving himself generally right. People would ostracize Amaram just to get on Dalinar's good side. And Kaladin just proved himself not only a Radiant, but a hero, saved the King's life, defeated the Assassin in White, and recovered an Honorblade.

 

To paraphrase Vin, your conviction is admirable. But sometimes you have to know when to just give up.

[maxal]

Yes, it is completely far-fetched. Dalinar denounced Amaram and proved his theft of a Shardblade in front of Highprinces and armies in the middle of the warcamp, as the last action he did before going off on a mission that ends with a bunch of people, himself included, refounding the Radiants (as a good thing, we have proof from the people in Urithiru) and basically proving himself generally right. People would ostracize Amaram just to get on Dalinar's good side. And Kaladin just proved himself not only a Radiant, but a hero, saved the King's life, defeated the Assassin in White, and recovered an Honorblade.

 

To paraphrase Vin, your conviction is admirable. But sometimes you have to know when to just give up.

 

As I said, this is by far not a theory I would be ready to die for, so my conviction is not so admirable... I would die for other theories, but certainly not that one. The only reason I like it is because it places Amaram in a position of power and it makes Dalinar actually try to protect Adolin which I am afraid he won't.

 

Was there really other Highprinces around? I thoughts there weren't, but I haven't went back to check in my book. If there were, well it is different, I agree. Though my understanding of this scene is Dalinar promised Kaladin he would formely accused Amaram and deal with him, later. 

[cem]

Roion was there, and definitely heard it. He is dead, but Sebarial and Aladar were in the vicinity, and unless they deliberately held back, they'd have heard it too. Besides, Dalinar trapped Amaram quite soundly. He waited to confront Amaram until the right time. I firmly believe there's no way he would've done it if there weren't enough witnesses for a court of law.

 

Politically speaking, Aladar is firmly in the Kholin camp until the Battle of Narak. That's probably two most powerful highprinces. I doubt Sebarial would get involved. Highprinces that were neutral in the Sadeas-Kholin thing are unlikely to break their neutrality by outright calling Dalinar a liar when he has dozens of witnesses backing him. Sadeas is gone, so his coalition lost much of its power. They might not be quite willing to take on Kholin and Aladar.

 

Besides, the man doesn't want Alethkar divided. He must know that if he pushes for princedom, it's not going to end well for Alethkar. And he himself admits his reputation is tarnished in his PoV. He is going to do his thing with the Sons of Honor. I think he might end up in bed with the ardentia. But I just can't see Amaram as a political rival after what happened in WoR.

[hoser]

I hated the ending of the Amaram confession.  All Dalinar had to do was demand that he hand over the Shardblade.  If he doesn't, kill him.  Amaram has already admitted to murder and drawn a Shardblade against a highprince.  They just crush the gem and Amaram isn't a Shardblade bearer anymore, then they imprison him immediately.  This gives them more Shards for the expedition, also.

 

I assume that Brandon wants to play with Amaram some more, but it is annoying to see smart characters missing obvious solutions.

 

Having Amaram become Highprince would create more drama, but I agree that the politics don't seem to fit. 

 

Depending on how things go in Hearthstone and then maybe Kholinar, I could imagine Kaladin having support to become Highprince of his birth region. 

[natc]

One does not simply just execute someone without proper trial while trying to convince everyone else to obey the monarchy.

[Oudeis]

Yeah... I'm with natc. Amaram is still lighteyed. I would be very surprised if Dalinar could legally just kill him, or even demand the forfeit of his Blade, without something approaching due process. If they'd had even a few more hours, that might be something different, but they had to leave right away.

 

The question then is, why not hold this confrontation two days earlier when there could have been a trial?

[maxal]

I hated the ending of the Amaram confession.  All Dalinar had to do was demand that he hand over the Shardblade.  If he doesn't, kill him.  Amaram has already admitted to murder and drawn a Shardblade against a highprince.  They just crush the gem and Amaram isn't a Shardblade bearer anymore, then they imprison him immediately.  This gives them more Shards for the expedition, also.

 

I assume that Brandon wants to play with Amaram some more, but it is annoying to see smart characters missing obvious solutions.

 

Having Amaram become Highprince would create more drama, but I agree that the politics don't seem to fit. 

 

Depending on how things go in Hearthstone and then maybe Kholinar, I could imagine Kaladin having support to become Highprince of his birth region. 

 

Dalinar cannnot execute Amaram based on the accusations at hand: he does not have this authority. Killing a man guilty of stealing a Shardblade and killing 4 men, outside his princedom and thus his juridiction, is a much worst crime than Adolin killing Sadeas. Amaram has not declared himself an open threat and nor has he issued a war declaration, unlike Sadeas. No, Dalinar has not valid legitimate basis to kill Amaram. It would go against everything he claims honor is.

 

As for Kaladin becoming a Highprince, plain no. Kaladin is a darkeyes and whether his eyes turned blue for a few hours, he still is low ranked. Alright, he is a Radiant, but most people hate Radiants and they fear them. No way are the princedoms going to support his nomination, but it is beyond the point: he is not a Brightlord. There is a world still between Kaladin and the higher ranked individuals. I think we should be careful in putting too much power into the title of Radiants. The world distrusts them, how is it this sentient is supposed to evaporate within a few days because one of them is Kaladin Stormblessed? Anyway, Kaladin does not even the slightest idea of how to run a princedom...