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Why Joel didn't become a Rithmatist (spoilers)


blackmagic3

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There almost had to be spare "shadowblazes" as it was prior to the regular ceremony.

 

But based on what we know so far, its really odd. If I was as fully into it as Joel, and finasially stable as he is now, I´d visit the places where they found those writing to begin with.

 

Also, he really should ask fitch about those stickfigures... I think he would be really suprised that Joel saw one but didnt become a rithmatist. If I remember right, he just told(tried to tell) Nalazar and (argh, blackout, name lost.. well, "unicorn girl;)) and neither really listened.

 

Or perhaps mr failed rithmatist in the office might be willing to chat carefully about it.... Joel did get him out of jail :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, to put the coin to rest, I asked Brandon at GenCon.  It wasn't the coin.  He didn't elaborate.  He distracted me by telling me we get more cosmere info in WoR :)

 

I'm kinda stumped on why else it could be that Joel doesn't become a rithmatist.  I feel like he needs a debriefing, which new rithmatists probably get; otherwise he'll end up with PTSD from his shadowblaze encounter. 

 

We haven't seen any other inceptions, so we don't know if what Father Stewart did with Joel was different or not. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I had a niggling feeling after reading the the Rithmatist like I missed something about why Joel didn't become a Rithmatist. As I was reading the part about him entering the chamber for the masters acceptance and realised that he put the mechanical coin in his pocket. I think that coin may have been part of why the stick figure went away thus leaving Joel a non- Rithmatist. Any thoughts?

I really like this idea, I hadn't thought of it, but honestly I think it could be a very Sanderson thing to do, so small it might be ignored. I don't think that could be the ONLY reason but I do like it.

 

 

My theory is that Joel's reaction to the chalk guy was too analytical, and that this is why they normally do the ritual on children, and also why it's done as a religious ritual surrounded by awe and wonder. It's sort of the same idea as the gear scaring wild chalkings, only more internal.

I also like this idea and imediantly thought 'yes!" but then I wondered, technically, the art of rithmatics is a very  analytical thing, based off of geometry and stuff, so that doesn't necessarily hold. Then again, Chalklings themselves seem to be based more on a creative side, as seen by Melody's chalklings. In that case, I do think that things like gears and Analytical thought is important and might HARNESS the magic, but not necessarily BE the magic, and may even be against it in the long run.

 

 

I assumed the size of the wild chalklings was about the same size as the ShadowBlazes. The big ShadowBlaze Joel saw might have been different from the ones that other kids get and he may end up connecting to that guy in the future. Perhaps during a visit to the Grand Canyon? What really worries me is the kid almost seems willing to become a Forgotten to gain Rithmatic Power. (page 354)

This is my fear as well. Sanderson writes a lot of stories about a rise to godhood, but what if Joel chooses something else?

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This is my fear as well. Sanderson writes a lot of stories about a rise to godhood, but what if Joel chooses something else?

 

Joel actually brings up the possibility himself - not to seriously entertain the idea, but just because his pondering over the whole situation with the thing in the church and Nalizar and everything else has made him realize that someone could theoretically gain powers that way.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think he'd go for it.  He'd no doubt at least think about it if the opportunity presented itself.  But I don't think he'd consider the idea for very long, and would ultimately reject it.

 

I really like this idea, I hadn't thought of it, but honestly I think it could be a very Sanderson thing to do, so small it might be ignored. I don't think that could be the ONLY reason but I do like it.

 

You might want to check the post regarding the coin just a couple of entries above yours.

 

:P

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm kinda stumped on why else it could be that Joel doesn't become a rithmatist.  I feel like he needs a debriefing, which new rithmatists probably get; otherwise he'll end up with PTSD from his shadowblaze encounter.

 

I suspect that sooner or later Joel's curiosity is going to get the better of him, and he's going to ask Melody about the Shadowblaze.  At that point she'll realize that something very strange (possibly even TRAGIC!) happened.  Though whether she'll be able to immediately tell Joel anything about it is anyone's guess.

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  • 3 weeks later...

....

Another thing that strikes me as it is mentioned a few times in the book:

A new Rithmatist can only be made once an old one dies.

The Rithmatist, Chapter 25 (page 360 Hardcover) as one quote for it.

 

.... 

There seems to be a fixed contingent of possible Rithmatists (alive). So: Is mankind lacking (a lot of) actual Rithmatists? Or is that ceremony a fake as for it seems to be clear that not every potential new Rithmatist can be chosen for not exceeding that given contingent?

I think this is the best reason. As William Muns disappeared sometime last year, maybe no rithmatics actually need to be replaced, since the last bunch of inceptions.

If Nalizar is no longer alive (and not simply possessed like forgotten/Harding), maybe the investiture of Hardling by the forgotten took that allotment.

Edited by rithfan
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  • 2 months later...

I got the impression that the reason joel wasn't bonded was the coin in his pocket. shadowblazes are related to chalklings, and both would be scared by clockworks. the shadowblaze seemed panicked when joel tried to touch him. and the scene of joel pocketing the coin was very vivid just before the inception, and strikes me as an attempt to hide the fact in the background.

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I got the impression that the reason joel wasn't bonded was the coin in his pocket. shadowblazes are related to chalklings, and both would be scared by clockworks. the shadowblaze seemed panicked when joel tried to touch him. and the scene of joel pocketing the coin was very vivid just before the inception, and strikes me as an attempt to hide the fact in the background.

 

Nope, the coin idea was positively debunked by Brandon as reported by Aiobheann in post 78 in this thread.

 

 

So, to put the coin to rest, I asked Brandon at GenCon.  It wasn't the coin.  He didn't elaborate.

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  • 1 month later...

I've not seen an analysis of "fourth entity removed" considering that it doesn't actually deal with removal of something from the Shadowblaze, so here goes:

"Removed" as a word has a couple meanings other than as a near synonym to "taken." One in this situation would be telling the reader to disregard certain information. So the author could mean to "take the fourth entity out of the equation for a moment." To me, this could suggest that the process is only undeterminable if one disregards this fourth entity. Alternately, the fourth entity to be disregarded could be the guiding force (mind, perhaps) of the Shadowblaze. So if you knew the way they think, you might be able to predict their choices.

The other meaning of "removed" that I thought of was the use in phrases like "first cousin, once removed." In that case, it's used generationally, but I was thinking it could be used almost in terms of hierarchy. In that sense, it would mean that either the Shadowblaze is being controlled or ruled by three higher beings, hierarchically, or it is at the top of such an arrangement. That use doesn't make much sense, though.

All of this is, I think, unlikely, but I thought it might spur some discussion.

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I've not seen an analysis of "fourth entity removed" considering that it doesn't actually deal with removal of something from the Shadowblaze, so here goes:

"Removed" as a word has a couple meanings other than as a near synonym to "taken." One in this situation would be telling the reader to disregard certain information. So the author could mean to "take the fourth entity out of the equation for a moment." To me, this could suggest that the process is only undeterminable if one disregards this fourth entity. Alternately, the fourth entity to be disregarded could be the guiding force (mind, perhaps) of the Shadowblaze. So if you knew the way they think, you might be able to predict their choices.

The other meaning of "removed" that I thought of was the use in phrases like "first cousin, once removed." In that case, it's used generationally, but I was thinking it could be used almost in terms of hierarchy. In that sense, it would mean that either the Shadowblaze is being controlled or ruled by three higher beings, hierarchically, or it is at the top of such an arrangement. That use doesn't make much sense, though.

All of this is, I think, unlikely, but I thought it might spur some discussion.

 

I'd have to read the whole quote again to fully digest your analysis for plausibility, but your first alternative is at the very least good food for thought and certainly merits strong consideration.

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Theory:

Maybe the shadowblaze and the forgotten are two halves to an original piece.  They kind of fit the light and dark, good and evil, chalk and charcoal meme.  (Am I thinking of The Dark Crystal too much?)  That would mean there were an even number of shadowblazes and forgotten.  Then, like Ruin vs Preservation, they are opposing each other and trying to captivate the other.

 

  It's possible that the ancient american people were the ones to first separate them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If Rithmatists gain their powers from Shadowblazes, it's likely that the reason their numbers are limited is that Shadowblazes are basically an endangered species.  

  • Are they rare because so many of them are trapped as wild chalklings? 
  • Can a non-rithmatist be turned into a wild chalkling?  Perhaps as the forces of good kill more Forgotten, they will free ancient Native American rithmatists from Zona Arida.  That would be cool.  (Also rather disorienting for the Native American)

Since deaths in Nebrask are so rare, and we know that the real Nalizar died the previous year, it could be that Joel encountered Nalizar's Shadowblaze.  

  • Theory:  Nalizar was killed because he could not be possessed by a Forgotten while he was bound to a Shadowblaze.  Dark Nalizar was more intelligent than Dark Harding because the Forgotten in Nalizar has free reign inside a dead husk, while the one in Harding had to constantly fight off Harding's mind.
  • Perhaps Nalizar's Shadowblaze was too afraid to bind itself to Joel because it knew Joel was fighting Forgottens. It had only escaped being trapped as a wild chalkling because the Forgotten had decided to kill Nalizar.  However, this theory doesn't seem as likely to me.  Shadowblazes seem too noble and majestic to be held back by petty fear.  
  • More likely, we haven't seen the last of that Shadowblaze.  For some reason, the situation wasn't right, yet it still chose to show itself to Joel.  I think it will be back to help Joel, even if it never binds itself to him.
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While The Rithmatist is not set in the cosmere it is written by the same author and is most likely to contain similar properties. For example, on Roshar a windrunner gets their powers from the spren they bind to, and in turn the spren is able to stay alive in the physical realm. without going into to much so I don't spoil it for people who haven't read it, the bindagent could be something like the oaths of the knights radiant that connects the source to the human. And therefore creates in this case a rithmatist.

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I had a niggling feeling after reading the the Rithmatist like I missed something about why Joel didn't become a Rithmatist. As I was reading the part about him entering the chamber for the masters acceptance and realised that he put the mechanical coin in his pocket. I think that coin may have been part of why the stick figure went away thus leaving Joel a non- Rithmatist. Any thoughts?

Ya I was thinking the coin as well. Not many 8 year old are going to have a large amount of money in their pocket. If the story continues it may not come out to be that simple but the explanation works. I'm assuming the while chalking is much the same as the forgotten entering their host and making changes, granting power and as the Scribbler didn't care for the coin, so the white version of it probably would have a similar reaction.

 

While The Rithmatist is not set in the cosmere it is written by the same author and is most likely to contain similar properties. For example, on Roshar a windrunner gets their powers from the spren they bind to, and in turn the spren is able to stay alive in the physical realm. without going into to much so I don't spoil it for people who haven't read it, the bindagent could be something like the oaths of the knights radiant that connects the source to the human. And therefore creates in this case a rithmatist.

This is not necessarily how it works. Mistborn - powers derive from the body metabolizing metals. I'd go through the list by book but someone might come across this that hasn't read all the ones i have and mistborn's metal system is not a spoiler.

 

 

  • Theory:  Nalizar was killed

 

There is not real evidence that Nalizar is dead and not just Blazed by a more powerful spirit. Joel says he is dead, guessing, but Nalizar doesn't really confirm it, and even if he is dead possibly possession by whatever he is is death in itself. In the end though I don't think that is something that was decided as there are a few holes in the ways the bad guys acted.

Edited by WeiryWriter
please don't double post, if you want to quote mulitple people use the "multiquote" button
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Ya I was thinking the coin as well. Not many 8 year old are going to have a large amount of money in their pocket. If the story continues it may not come out to be that simple but the explanation works. I'm assuming the while chalking is much the same as the forgotten entering their host and making changes, granting power and as the Scribbler didn't care for the coin, so the white version of it probably would have a similar reaction.

 

See post #86 above for info on the coin. 

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  • 3 months later...

I think the fourth entity removed is a descendent. I think that because it says ,"Forth entity removed," and not, "Fourth entity, removed." The comma implies that it is an action to be made, and the former is stating a fact about the shadowblaze. Also if the author were talking about removing things, why not just say ," having removed the fourth entity," just to clear it all up?

Edited by Divine0flame
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  • 7 months later...

Oh look, someone recently reread the Rithmatist and is now going around necroing old threads to talk about ideas... Now that I've hung a lantern on what I'm doing, let's get down to prognosticating.

Insofar as we accept that some entity consciously decides if a child should become a Rithmatist or not, it seems that Joel was not selected for the same reason that Fitch gave him a talking to: he's a bully. He's a good kid, don't get me wrong, but his character flaw is still that, if given a bit of power, he's going to be tempted to flaunt it and abuse others. Why, then, did an entity appear to him at all? (I think we're all agreed that the entity doesn't appear to every child). Because he's highly talented, and good, but simply not good enough. This is what Nalizar was confused about: Joel clearly would have been a very powerful Rithmatist, so why didn't he get chosen? The reason being that where a Forbidden sees ability, the entity saw liability, just as Fitch saw liability in Joel.

The advantage here is that, just as Fitch said that Joel still has the opportunity to become a good man, Joel still has the opportunity to become good enough to become a Rithmatist.

This also explains why Inception occurs at the age of 8. Children that age are fairly dichotomic (well, trichotomic): they're either spoiled, neutral (the vast majority), or good, but there is very little middle ground between those categories, so the entity will usually only appear to children that are thought to be good enough (rather than those in an awkward middle). And the rare ones who see something but don't become a rithmatist? Aesthetics, visionaries, indigo children, daydreamers, spiritual people! Certainly, respectable adults wouldn't listen to the ramblings of a few odd children, and as those children grow up being told that their experiences were imaginary, they'd start to believe it.

Notably, this can also explain the curious case of the Muns family: there's no genetic (aka "nature") component to becoming a rithmatist, but her parents may be raising consistently good children (aka, "nurture"). Although she doesn't like her family, the main charge against them seems to be that they are too awesome and Melody feels overshadowed.

Of course, the problem with specifically choosing children at age 8 to become Rithmatists, based on their character, is that character can change a lot over childhood. It's easier to keep Inception a secret, sure, as the selection process can be more cut and dry, but it's harder to ensure that truly good people will become Rithmatists.

***

On a slightly different, but still related topic, I would also like to propose that the entity that Joel encountered is not a Shadowblaze. I think that the entity is likely still related to becoming a Rithmatist, but that Shadowblazes are themselves something completely different.

First, since no one has mentioned it, The Narrative of the Captivity and the Restoration of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson (in ch 21) has relevant sections of text: "It did watch. That deep, terrible blackness. Something from the Depths themselves. The shape wiggling, shaking, like a pitch-black fire sketched in charcoal."

Compare this to what we see later, when Harding is cornered (ch 24): "Joel could see the creature's shadow begin to shake and twist. The shadow fuzzed, coming to look as if it were drawn in charcoal."

These two passages, for all appearances, are describing the same creatures.

In contrast, the creature that Joel saw (ch 22) was described as: "The thing behind him was brilliant white. It stood as high as Joel did, and was in the shape of a man--but a very thin one, with spindly arms and only a curved line for a head. It held was appeared to be a crude bow in one hand."

Of these clearly different creatures, which ones sound most like a blaze of shadows?

Keep in mind that the only person who called the white-chalk-man a Shadowblaze is Joel himself, and he by his own admission doesn't know much about the topic. He believes that it was a shadowblaze because that is the name of chalk entities he found in a book. However, there's no clear indicator that the book was only talking about the Inception Chamber or the ceremony itself. Joel, like most people, believes that becoming a Rithmatist requires those things, but then, we know that King George didn't have them and became a Rithmatist regardless. If we know this, certainly Rithmatists themselves know this, and so a scholar would likely talk about the process apart from the temporal trappings.

There is a slight issue with this interpretation, however. Fitch, upon seeing the Scribbler, recognizes it as a Forgotten but says "And attached to Harding! I wasn't aware that was possible."

Fitch is a scholar of rithmatics, so if a Forgotten is the same as a Shadowblaze, and a Shadowblaze can be bound to a vessel, then Fitch should have known that it was possible for a Forgotten to attach to a human. There are several possible explanations, though.

The first, and most simple, is that scholars don't know everything. In fact, they usually know their narrow field very well, but are quite ignorant on the rest. Fitch's specialty is the history of rithmatics, not theoretical classifications of rithmatic creatures or now Inception occurs.

The second is that Fitch wasn't aware that a wild shadowblaze/Forgotten could bind itself to a human: the book indicates that a bindagent is involved, so Fitch might well have assumed that creatures of Nebrask lacked such a thing.

The third, of course, being that Forgotten are not actually Shadowblazes.

As a final note in this topic before moving on, the White Chalk Man Thing (or chalklord, if you will) seems to be a reference to the cliff drawings of "Zona Arida" that we hear about earlier in the book, and those in turn the petroglyphs found in real-world Arizona. Personally, I found the chalklord's description to be reminiscent of drawings of Kokopelli (a particular character found in those petroglyphs).

***

This, though, finally gets us to the quote that was discussed so much in this thread: (Ch 12) "The chaining of a Shadowblaze, fourth entity removed, is an often indeterminable process, and the bindagent should consider wisely the situation before making any decision regarding the vessels to be indentured"

There's been some disagreement over what this sentence means, but a simple grammatical examination makes it a little clearer. There are two independent clauses and a single dependent clause. That dependent clause -- fourth entity removed -- is what has given people a lot of befuddlement, however in the context the only type of dependent clause it could be is an adjectival one. That is, the entire dependent clause (not just part of it) describes what a shadowblaze is. So, "fourth entity removed" doesn't mean that the fourth entity has been removed from the shadowblaze, but that the shadowblaze IS the "fourth entity removed."

As kinxer suggested above (but, alas, discarded), the meaning is most likely similar to the removedness of a relative. There seem to be a wide variety of entities involved in Rithmatics, so a shadowblaze is just a member of a category that is defined as being separated from some central object, person, or concept by a particular degree.

To illustrate, let's imagine that Socrates is that central thing (a philosopher nonce removed, as it were). Plato, then, as his student, would be a philosopher once removed. However, Xenophon, as a student of Socrates, would also be a philosopher once removed, yet he's not the same at Plato. So we might say that Plato is a first philosopher removed, whereas Xenophon is a second philosopher removed. Aristotle, in such a situation and as the student of Plato, might be a first philosopher twice removed. And so on.

So, the book may have been taking about all sorts of entities in all sorts of stages of removedness and how they relate to Inception. In such a case, Joel assumed that Shadowblazes were the things being bound in Inceptions, whereas the book was referring to the possibility (or past experiments) binding it.

Or the 4th entity removed class may itself be comprised of subclasses (one of which including the Forgotten), only some of which are used in creating new Rithmatists.

***

Moving on slightly, I find the last section of that quote to be of particular interest: "vessels to be indentured." This indicates that there is a contract between the shadowblaze and vessel (and possibly the bindagent). That certainly fits with the idea of Rithmatists being bound to serve in Nebrask (they are essentially indentured, a state that they pay off by serving in the military there). However, referring to a child as a vessel and something to be indentured indicates that Rithmatists are being controlled by something else (it could just be the professional field itself, though, not necessarily chalklings).

Additionally, it's curious that others haven't latched onto the "indeterminable" aspect of the process. We have two Rithmatic examples of what, exactly, that means. Namely, Exton and Melody. Exton can't control his chalklings, while Melody has paranormally good control. The indeterminable aspect of the process seems to indicate that a poor match would result in an underpowered (and potentially dangerous) rithmatist, whereas a good match would result in a powerful pairing. This, then, also means that Exton is proof that anyone can be a rithmatist, but that not everyone can be a good rithmatist. Joel, then, could certainly be a Rithmatist. It's just a question of what sort of Rithmatist he'd be.

***

Now for a few tangents that may be related:

It is seems odd that no one noticed the Scribbler's activities before Joel. If there are a set number of rithmatists in the world, and one must die before a new one can be made, and the Church is the only organization in the world that can make new rithmatists, then the Church should have noticed what the Scribbler was doing by a decrease in the rates of new rithmatists being made. On average, the death rate of Rithmatists should be steady year to year, so in turn the rate of new rithmatists should be steady year to year. Assuming that the Scribbler was effective at trapping Rithmatists, the rates of new ones should have declined just as the death rate of Rithmatists was declining. Of course, it may have simply been that not enough Rithmatists had been captured at that point, or that not enough time had passed for a trend to be noticeable. Or, it might be that while there is a limit to the number of rithmatists, there might not be a steady limit (if Rithmatists must bind chalklords of shadowblazes, that would be a limit, but if those things reproduce, that limit in turn would increase each year).

Finally, assuming that Shadowblazes are normally bound to humans to make them into Rithmatists, and Forgotten are a class of Shadowblazes that lead wild chalkings, the entire war may have actually started because of the rise of Rithmatists. If humans went in, bound Shadowblazes, that might have upset the other Shadowblazes who in turn led the Chalkings against humans. Alternately, the Shadowblazes and their ilk may hunt and feed off of the chalklords: humans binding with chalklords protests the latter, thereby depriving the Shadowblazes of food (or, at least, their preferred food, since it seems that they are quite happy to eat people, too).

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  • 3 months later...

I dunno, maybe Joel became a new type of rithmatist?

Maybe he hasn't found out about his powers yet.  I had spoken to Sanderson about the use of cards, I haven't gotten a reply back yet though.  

$^(

anyway I am also wondering what is in the tower, is it one god rithmatist or maybe a chalking spawner???

I am so tired of waiting!!!!

SANDERSON!!!!!!!!!!

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I don't think the Church would be able to notice a change in the rate of Rithmatists being incepted. This is a number that would have to vary by a reasonable margin, based on how many Rithmatists die during a year. Also, there  isn't one central location everyone goes to in order to be Incepted. I'm not sure, but wouldn't you just go to your local Church? Or are there larger temples or something that you might have to travel to? Either way, there are multiple locations where Inception takes place. The only way to notice a trend is to collect records from all the Inception Chambers and compile the data together.

 

Even still, Scribbler's actions were probably not enough to move that number too far outside the normal range.

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  • 10 months later...

Some time ago people were wondering in this thread about how could be Melody so sure that Joel would become a Rithmatist...And maybe she just speculated?

If she knew that a new Rithmatist could be transformed only if one died (I don´t remember who said it in the books), then she could just count, since for all she knew, three RIthmatists just died, which meant that there will be probably a need for more Rithmatists than is usual, therefore more will be chosen. And Joel went to the inception chamber as first, therefore he had the greatest chance of being chosen.

Being so good at Rithmatics couldn´t hurt him, either, and he was Melody´s friend, so she might have simply persuaded herself that it will work. And these factors apply even if she didn´t know about the dead R -> new R.

Therefore the Rithmatists don´t necessarily have to have a secret way of securing their children to become Rithmatists (like...they still can, but I don´t think it probable.)

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  • 4 months later...

I was just re-reading all the posts and the book and something caught my attention. Satsuoni and many other people mentioned Nalizar being able to see something different about non-rithmatists. Satsuoni you said that maybe he could see a shadowblaze attached to them, but the only problem i have with his is when Nalizar first sees Joel after beating Flitch he looks at Joel and says "'What are you doing there?' Nalizar demanded. 'Why aren't you wearing your uniform?'" This brings up a few problems. If Nalizar can recognize rithmatist by shadowblazes and can barly pay attention to non-rithmatist than why would he think Joel was a rithmatist? If he saw a shadow blaze than why can't joel use rithmatics? And (someone else hinted at this) but could it be possible that joel has something else that confused Nalizar? I may just be overthinking this. It could just be that "Joel's love and knowledge" of rithmatics confused Nalizar but that just seems like a cheap way out to me. Tell me what you think and feel free to tear my comment to shreds. 

 

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On 02/02/2017 at 3:55 AM, TheChesireMouse said:

I was just re-reading all the posts and the book and something caught my attention. Satsuoni and many other people mentioned Nalizar being able to see something different about non-rithmatists. Satsuoni you said that maybe he could see a shadowblaze attached to them, but the only problem i have with his is when Nalizar first sees Joel after beating Flitch he looks at Joel and says "'What are you doing there?' Nalizar demanded. 'Why aren't you wearing your uniform?'" This brings up a few problems. If Nalizar can recognize rithmatist by shadowblazes and can barly pay attention to non-rithmatist than why would he think Joel was a rithmatist? If he saw a shadow blaze than why can't joel use rithmatics? And (someone else hinted at this) but could it be possible that joel has something else that confused Nalizar? I may just be overthinking this. It could just be that "Joel's love and knowledge" of rithmatics confused Nalizar but that just seems like a cheap way out to me. Tell me what you think and feel free to tear my comment to shreds. 

 

This is an extremely valid point but I'm just going to add my own theory to it so here it goes.

we know from the book there is a fourth element removed when a rithmatist is created. When I hear fourth element I think of quarters so what if when a shadow blaze makes a rithmatist it gives a quater of its soul. If so the different quarters could do different things for example the fourth part could be the rithmatics we all know and love while the other three could do other things like make charcoal come to life. ( I only suggested charcoal because we know the forgotten is like a charcoal substance.)  This could be why Nazilar originally thought he was a rithmatist and could explain why in the room Joel didn't become a rithmatist because he already was one. With this it means that something would have had to have happened when Joel was a baby. This still has flaws so does anyone agree with me or have something to add or do you want to rip my theorie to shreds?

Edited by chop_ninja2
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