Why Joel didn't become a Rithmatist (spoilers)

[Arcanist Lupus]

Heh, sacrificing corpses of innocent creatures for power I wonder if anybody tried to practice Rithmatics with oil or other substances.

There were a number of comparisons drawn between the Forgotten and charcoal.

[Meg]

There were a number of comparisons drawn between the Forgotten and charcoal.

 

 

(Black) charcoal seems to be a contrary to (white) chalk. But both are sort of the same "substance" (for the lack of having a better word or description) and surely not liquid (like oil would be). 

 

edit (contrary was the right word)

Edited May 24, 2013 by Meg

[Observer]

The reason only around one in a thousand are chosen is probably because most of the time all the Rithmatist spots are filled. The odds of you being incepted just as a Shadowblaze is freed up happen to be very unlikely. So yes, if that's the reason it's totally possible to bribe your way into being a Rithmatist, just get in at the right time.

[Crysanja]

this secret keeping of the event of becomeing a rithmatist must have some driving force

.

i dont think you can keep 99.99% of all 8 year olds, which become a rithmatist to keep the secret, with just telling them not to.

 

even if something realy horrible would happen, some child would speak about it, even if it means expulsion of society. which could prevent a grownup from speaking.

 

would threat of death keep a child silent? maybe a child yes, all children? no.

 

 

so there must be some force transfered, that keeps them silent, maybe they cant speak about it? - why?

becomeing an rithmatist is propably the most wonderfull thing, that can happen to a child.

if that is nothing to speak about, what else? why shouldnt a child speak about the dreams of everyone.

 

 

so im sure they cant speak about it, or everyone would know the reason.

you cant keep a secret with lots of ppl knowing it.

 

interesting is now what force keeps them silent, maybe a shadowblaze takes over the body of the child and it is gone?

or a shadowblazes merges with the mind of the child?

simbiosis?

 

 

again you cant keep all rithmatist children silent!

[Observer]

It's still possible it was his coin. Yes, the church is filled with gears, but who's to say those aren't there to keep the Shadowblaze locked in?

 

Or maybe it was simply because. as has been stated, all spots were filled.

[Galavantes]

It's still possible it was his coin. Yes, the church is filled with gears, but who's to say those aren't there to keep the Shadowblaze locked in?

 

Or maybe it was simply because. as has been stated, all spots were filled.

I do think that a shadowblaze bonds with a person to make a rithmatist, and since there was a shadowblaze in the chamber then that implies to me that there was at least one spot free. So I think something else spooked it. 

Also...why July 4th? Or why even only one day at all? Why not on a child's 8th birthday? Or every Sunday?

Further more, if there IS a way to influence who is chosen, and the upper hierarchy is aware of it, then it seems that a better system would be to train Rithmatists FIRST, then send the very best ones in to attempt to bond with a shadowblaze. Resulting in more powerful rithmatists like Joel. (btw my name is Joel and reading an entire book with a main character of that name was a little odd)

Edited June 25, 2013 by Galavantes?

[Crysanja]

religion is a way to have power over ppl.

 

being or becomeing a rithmatist has nothing todo with the church, except that the church was able to take power over the testing process.

 

with this power over the testing process, they connect the church with magic -> gods ability/right - it gives the church more power over the ppl.

 

limiting it to just one testing day will make it a more religious thing, a tradition. traditions give power over ppl. so religious traditions are importand to control the ppl.

 

if the number of rithmatist(shadowblazes?) is limited, then it is advantagous to have just one testing day, this makes it less difficult to manipulate who will become a rithmatist.

[orb360]

I don't see how Nalizar could be a forgotten if forgotten possesion makes you dumb like Harding was. Nalizar is something different from Harding and I think that distinction is important.

 

Why are Rithmatists forced to wear uniforms and the other kids not? It seems to me that in circumstances like this a lot more rithmatists would be upset over the uniforms but no one complains... Maybe it's unimportant, but could the shadowblaze be living on the rithmatist and the uniforms are designed to hide their presence?

 

 

[Shardlet]

I think Crysanja's most recent post has some strong merit to it.  It is difficult to say, since we have seen so little of the church so far.  But, I got the impression that the church adjusted a ceremony (at least now known as inception) to include generating rithmatists.  The church now holds an exclussive monopoly (at least in North Americas) on the creation of new rithmatists.  This gives the church substantial power, control, and influence. 

 

Clearly, not all rithmatists doctrinally adhere to the church (or, I should say, are devoted to the doctrines of the church).  But, the church determines when people are incepted and there does not appear to be any reason why an inception ceremony could not take place on a day other than July 4th.  This could potentially lead to the church excercising at least a modicum of control over who becomes a rithmatist by allowing off-date inceptions to increase the chance of one becoming a rithmatist. 

 

Edit: I completely changed the substance of this post since it was kindly pointed out to me that there may have been a critical error in my thinking unrelated to the substance I am posting about. I know this kind of edit is unorthodox.   But, I determined that there was no need to unnecessarily upset anyone.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Shardlet

[Morsk]

Brandon tends to write a mix of religion as a genuinely positive influence on people's lives, vs. religion getting corrupted and used for power. (I don't want to give examples, because it spoils a lot of character development in different stories, and sometimes plot.)

But since this is a YA novel, we may have seen enough of the "corruption" theme when the priest denied Joel an inception the first time, and misused religious doctrines to rationalize his desire for convenience. I do think they're hiding something, but that most of their reason for doing so will end up good. Time is weird to chalkings; maybe choosing one day a year is important.

[Shardlet]

The way I see it, Brandon tends to tends to give somewhat of an overall balance to religion in his books.  The Cosmere complicates things a little since we have not yet seen any actual Gods per se.  Certainly the Shards have some very godlike qualities, like the power of creation for example.  but there are limits to that even.  Recall neither Ruin nor Preservation could create human life on their own.  They had to work together.  And we have seen manipulative corrupt religions in Brandon's books, such as the Steel Ministry.

 

I do however doubt that we will see the church as a major antagonist in the Rithmatist books.  Especially since this is a YA book.

[Crysanja]

ok i said alot of bad things/motivations about the church here, ill give some different motivations here.

 

 

so a single person invented/found rithmatics. now what can a single person do to spread the knowledge about it?

he can go to a village and test, show, teach rithmatics.(this was 300? years ago) 

 

here we should remember what was done to ppl using "magic" in our world.

we burned them as witches - and they couldnt use magic after all.

 

so rithmatics seems to be a very scarry thing, maybe even the testing.

in this world, it was fortunite that the church was willing to indoctrinate it.

religion is one of very few ways to spread rithmatistism over a large population.

the church could be the only way, to make ppl to accept it in the first place.

maybe to saveguard the population, against the knowledge what a successfull testing is.

 

sorry this is a bit off-topic.

[Shardlet]

I am wondering if I have become a cheerleader for Crysanja , but you make another good observation.  The church's adoption of rithmatics is fairly atypical for a religion (at least as we have generally seen historically IRL).  And rithmatics does seem like it would have been crazy freaky to people for at least a couple of generations.  Granted, I don't recall whether or not we know when the church adopted rithmatics, but for it to have the monopoly it has, it seems like it must have done so fairly early on.  You would expect a religion to be very leery of something so new, so different, and so powerful.  I smell a significant backstory.

[WeiryWriter]

On the "Rithmatics being adopted by the Church" point.  I would think the Church adopted Rithmatics into its teachings at the very beginning.  King Gregory III, the guy who discovered Rithmatics, was the Monarch and as such the head of the Monarchical Church.  He could single-handedly make the Church accept it.  Then there is the fact that people can only become Rithmatists  by participating in the inception ceremony, in an inception chamber, that are only found in Monarchical chapels.

[Shardlet]

I suspect that the inception chambers were added to the churches after the adoption of rithmatics doctrinally.  Thank you Weiry for reminding us about King Gregory III as being the discoverer of rithmatics as well as being the head of the church.  I had forgotten that.  This definitely would be the source of the ready adoption of rithmatics.  People (as a group) can change sentiments quickly in such circumstances.  If you'll recall, when Henry the VIII spearheaded the formation of the Church of England within one generation large scale anti-Catholic sentiment grew very widespread and strong in England. 

[mistify]

I actually thought that Joel was denied on purpose. The point being to create a new way of fighting: With a rithmatist and a non-rithmatist in the same circle. So the Shadowblaze showed up to tell him he's special, but did not bind because Joel has another purpose. For all we know, the way to ultimately defeat an uber-forgotten is exactly though this kind of pairing. Nalizar never saw it before because it was never done before. 

Of course, it could also be because there weren't any free spots available (as rithmatists weren't dying). In which case, the chalkling is not a shadowblaze at all, but a chalkling sent by someone/something else. But this seems sooo much less cool.

[happyman]

I actually thought that Joel was denied on purpose. The point being to create a new way of fighting: With a rithmatist and a non-rithmatist in the same circle. So the Shadowblaze showed up to tell him he's special, but did not bind because Joel has another purpose. For all we know, the way to ultimately defeat an uber-forgotten is exactly though this kind of pairing. Nalizar never saw it before because it was never done before. 

Of course, it could also be because there weren't any free spots available (as rithmatists weren't dying). In which case, the chalkling is not a shadowblaze at all, but a chalkling sent by someone/something else. But this seems sooo much less cool.

 

Funny, I just said exactly the same thing on another thread.  Hum.

[junior]

I don't see how Nalizar could be a forgotten if forgotten possesion makes you dumb like Harding was. Nalizar is something different from Harding and I think that distinction is important.

 

There's one other important distinction.

 

A bucket of acid is what Joel uses to deal with the forgotten that's attacking the dormitory.  But Joel douses Nalizar with acid at the start of the attack, and the only seeming effect is to ruin Nalizar's coat.

[terryjr]

My personal theory is that Joel couldn't become a Rithmatist because he is already being used as a vessel for something. Here are my reasons:

• Joel's father traveled a lot to potentially dangerous places like Nebrask. 
• Joel's father was not a Rithmatist, but somehow was able to figure out stuff about Rithmatists that no one else was able to figure out. 

Due to those two points I theorize that Joel's father was being used as a vessel for something. Perhaps this is a third side we haven't even encountered yet. 

 

When Joel's father died Joel was sitting in a room with him holding his hand. My theory is that at this point whatever was using Joel's dad for a vessel transferred to Joel. When Joel tried to touch the thing in the inception room it reacted badly because of whatever is already using Joel as a vessel. 

 

Anyway, this is my theory, but I hadn't seen it proposed anywhere yet. 

[Shardlet]

First off, welcome terryjr!  Glad to have you with us.  I don't recall ever hearing this idea.  Seems reasonably possible.  I only wonder how Brandon is going to complete the story in only one more book.  Seems like a third side would make that even more difficul, though.  But, maybe not.

[Mat Cauthon]

Ok here is my theory:

P1- the bind agent is the exiled monarch, the founder of rithmatics (or the chalkling that possessed him giving him his powers. I see the chaining of a shadowblaze as a good spirit possession sorta)

P2- the fourth entity was what enabled the chalkling Joel saw to stand upright and not on a surface, Joel removed that fourth entity when he touched it and it collapsed. (It wasn't 3d because Joel tried looking around it so I think the fourth entity is some play on a fourth dimension that let the chalkling stand up so to speak)

P3- to indenture someone is to work off a debt over a period of time. I see the debt being for the rithmatic powers and it's payed off by fighting in nebrask or against evil chalklings.

P4- the bindagent should consider wisely the situation. Joel brought up his concerns that he would be shipped off to fight with only a short time to refine his skills, but we know he is already pretty skilled, so it must be the time that counts.

C- the bindagent didn't indenture Joel because it considered it more wise to wait to chain the shadowblaze to him if he is to combat Nalizar and his evil schemes because otherwise he would need to go away for ten years. Joel has removed the fourth entity from the shadowblaze but has yet to have it chained to him thereby indenturing him to fight the evil chalklings. Joel will manifest the powers later in a real time of need as we saw that he was capable of championing for the good guys without it for now.

I have a few more but diff theories but my money's on this horse for now.

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain!

[Ironeyes]

There's one other important distinction.

 

A bucket of acid is what Joel uses to deal with the forgotten that's attacking the dormitory.  But Joel douses Nalizar with acid at the start of the attack, and the only seeming effect is to ruin Nalizar's coat.

I think that there are different types or levels of Forgotten. The one attached to Harding was closer to the surface, so to speak, so it was vulnerable to the acid. The one in Nalizar is deeper down or more powerful, so it isn't affected. 

[Satsuoni]

I think that there are different types or levels of Forgotten. The one attached to Harding was closer to the surface, so to speak, so it was vulnerable to the acid. The one in Nalizar is deeper down or more powerful, so it isn't affected.

Of note is also the fact that Harding's Forgotten was at the moment spooked by gears and clearly visible on the floor, that is, largely outside the body, while the Nalizar's was only spotted inside the eyes, hidden from acid by the flesh it is wearing (presumably a Shadowblaze has similar relationship with a Rithmatist).

[Haradion Drogon]

I have a theory that the entity possessing Nalizar/ is pretending to be Nalizar, the entity possessing harding, and the "Shadowblaze" (Assuming that is what was in the chamber, and what makes a Riftmatist) are all subspecies of the same species. Each one grants its "Host" power, but in a slightly different way.

 

I get the impression that the Nalizar entity, and the Shadowblaze-es are opposite forces. One helping the Humans, and the other trying to destroy them.

 

The Shadowblaze didn't bind with Joel, because for some reason, it would negatively effect "The bigger picture".

 

At least, those are the thoughts I have.

[Chlehrma]

Maybe the stick figure he encountered was the bind agent and it would bind another shadowblaze to the potential rithmatist. I seem to recall something in the book saying that new rithmatists could only be made if an existing one died--meaning that if they died, then the formerly bonded shadowblaze could be bound to a new candidate. Perhaps there was no spare shadowblaze available for the main character to bind with or perhaps there is a specific shadowblaze to which he is supposed to bind.