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The Atium is a lie! (Sort of.)


skaa

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Well, okay. The destruction of the Atium-producing crystals would be a far worse disaster (economically-speaking) than not getting the single bead from the geode. The Empire sees Atium as wealth, after all. That doesn't really contradict my theory, though. The crystals, the geode, and the Atium beads could all have been destroyed at the same time.

Iron and steel Allomancy are the only Allomantic powers that could affect metals outside of the body, and I know that saying "You can destroy pure Atium by Iron-Pulling or Steel-Pushing on it!" sounds far less impressive than "You can destroy pure Atium by doing any Allomancy!" but that's still an important discovery. TLR knows that Atium would be a useless currency if Lurchers and Coinshots could destroy it at a whim. Hence the need to alloy it. Also, since Atium-Electrum is so useful in battle, creating it would be the perfect way to expend Ruin's body while getting something out of the evil bugger.

Nope, Lord Ruler lists what the compound is.

Okay. So maybe it says "Malatium = Atium + Gold." The Lord Ruler and the obligators reading his plates probably have their own secret name for Atium-Electrum to avoid confusion, so that they may talk of Atium (the pure one) plainly among themselves. From what I can tell, TLR only wrote about stuff that his obligators might not yet know about. They already know about Atium-Electrum, so there's probably no plate with info on that alloy.

The quote about Sazed is actually the best evidence against my theory that I've seen so far. I don't know... perhaps Sazed wasn't informed by Laras about that particular thing. After all, Ati never figured out Laras' secrets. Anyway, good job, Phantom!

Edited by skaa
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We can keep citing stuff from the books all day long but it gets to a point where it's a bit pointless, there will always be a little bit of room to manoeuvre around and keep a theory, unless it's specifically shut down by direct word of Brandon, but at the moment you have to jump through an awful lot of hoops to keep this theory going, we're basically down to, only direct use of allomantic force affecting atium, some secret code between TLR and his obligators to keep a secret that isn't necessary, no one who ever had a viewpoint being aware of this secret, including apparently Ruin or Marsh, neither of whom mentioned anything like this, or Harmony after his ascension, who might have wanted to point something like this out, even if in a general way. Brandon doing some mental gymnastics to keep his answers deliberately confusing, which isn't really in his style, he can give some tricky answers sometimes but I seriously doubt he'd continuously switch his definition of 'Atium' just to hide a secret which doesn't really seem to matter that much.
It gets to the point where it's kind of pointless to discuss as a theory, as it stands it is hugely unlikely that this is the case.

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Yes, I agree with Voidus one hundred percent. You can usually find some wiggle room to keep an unlikely theory possible, but there comes a point when it starts to be unbelieveable.

 

The quote about Sazed is actually the best evidence against my theory that I've seen so far. I don't know... perhaps Sazed wasn't informed by Laras about that particular thing. After all, Ati never figured out Laras' secrets. Anyway, good job, Phantom!

I don't think that is the case. The Lord Ruler was granted an instinctive understanding of the Metallic Arts by virtue of simply holding the power at the Well.

 

Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.

One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.

Sazed, after all, knew about the four other regular Allomantic metals instinctively. No one needed to tell him. He holds far more power than the Lord Ruler ever did. If there are other metals that can be used, he doesn't need to be told what they are.
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You guys are right. This is getting pointless. Almost everything I've said so far have been ad hoc arguments invented just to support the central theory of Atium-Electrum, anyway. So, consider me defeated.

 

Anyway, moving on. Do you guys know any alternative theory that explains the similarity between Atium and Electrum? Or a theory about what the Atium-Electrum alloy actually does? I'd be willing to back a stronger, less controversial theory if there is one. :)

 

Edit: As a matter of fact, I'm starting to doubt the significance of the similarity. Aluminum and Chromium (and their alloys) have a similar case, after all (Chromium and Nicrosil have powers similar to Aluminum and Duralumin), so there's actually nothing inconsistent with that per se. But I'm still worried about the Allomantic Table for Atium alloys. Since Atium-Gold reveals the Gold shadows of others, what would Atium-Electrum reveal, if not the Electrum shadows of others?

Edited by skaa
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Well there is something to be investigated, we have WoB that Atium alloys grant various Temporal abilities and it was even mistaken for belonging to that quadrant, which is interesting considering Ruins own limited amount of foresight compared to Preservation, and we know that Lerasium alloys grant Enhancement effects, namely making people mistings for the most part. So there is definitely room for speculation on why Lerasium seems to be enhancement-y and Ruin is Temporal-y, especially since Hemalurgy is far more about enhancing abilities and Preservation is better at seeing the future. So what's going on here?

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Well there is something to be investigated, we have WoB that Atium alloys grant various Temporal abilities and it was even mistaken for belonging to that quadrant, which is interesting considering Ruins own limited amount of foresight compared to Preservation, and we know that Lerasium alloys grant Enhancement effects, namely making people mistings for the most part. So there is definitely room for speculation on why Lerasium seems to be enhancement-y and Ruin is Temporal-y, especially since Hemalurgy is far more about enhancing abilities and Preservation is better at seeing the future. So what's going on here?

 

Lerasium alloys also grant physical stuff and atium alloys also grant mental stuff.

 

At least, according to the chart.

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Lerasium alloys also grant physical stuff

 

Well, not directly. The Lerasium-Iron alloy, for example, grants the ability to use Iron Allomancy, which is a Physical power. I think "Enhancement" is a good term for what Lerasium and its alloys do.

 

and atium alloys also grant mental stuff.

 

At least, according to the chart.

 

Wait, which chart is this? I thought the fact that some Atium alloys give Mental powers came from a Brandon quote. Is there a new chart I'm not aware of?

Edited by skaa
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Well, not directly. The Lerasium-Iron alloy, for example, grants the ability to use Iron Allomancy, which is a Physical power. I think "Enhancement" is a good term for what Lerasium and its alloys do.

 

 

Wait, which chart is this? I thought the fact that some Atium alloys give Mental powers came from a Brandon quote. Is there a new chart I'm not aware of?

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/store/item/39/

 

It's illegible, at this resolution so...

Lerasium:In alloy form, it produces various expanded Physical and Enhancement effects (including the creation of Mistings).

Atium: In alloy, produces various expanded Mental and Temporal effects

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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http://www.brandonsanderson.com/store/item/39/

 

It's illegible, at this resolution so...

Lerasium:In alloy form, it produces various expanded Physical and Enhancement effects (including the creation of Mistings).

Atium: In alloy, produces various expanded Mental and Temporal effects

 

D'oh! I'm sorry for misunderstanding your earlier post, Phantom. I'd forgotten all about that chart's info on the God Metals.  :lol: So, that makes the 16 "Misting alloys" Physical-Enhancement hybrids. Makes sense. I guess enhancing the body to use Allomancy requires some physical changes as well.

 

And Atium alloys are Temporal-Mental hybrids. I suspect that's because Ruin warps an Allomancer's way of thinking while using the temporal powers of Atium alloys.

 

Well there is something to be investigated, we have WoB that Atium alloys grant various Temporal abilities and it was even mistaken for belonging to that quadrant, which is interesting considering Ruins own limited amount of foresight compared to Preservation, and we know that Lerasium alloys grant Enhancement effects, namely making people mistings for the most part. So there is definitely room for speculation on why Lerasium seems to be enhancement-y and Ruin is Temporal-y, especially since Hemalurgy is far more about enhancing abilities and Preservation is better at seeing the future. So what's going on here?

 

In the case of Lerasium's Allomantic Enhancement aspect, one could argue that it fits well with Preservation's power, which is described as "end-positive" in nature.

 

I'm not sure about Atium's Allomantic Temporal aspect, but I do have a theory (oh God! not another one!). I think it's because combining Laras' and Ati's powers inherently leads to temporal powers. Here's a summary of my train of thought:

  1. Allomancy using Atium alloys leads to using Ruin's power via Preservation's system. Kind of like a mixture of Preservation and Ruin.
  2. Feruchemy is another combination of Preservation and Ruin.
  3. Feruchemy is inherently temporal. Storing Feruchemical traits basically allows the future you (not the present you) to gain those traits.
  4. Allomancy using Atium alloys must be of a similar nature (i.e. temporal).

This would require that Preservation+Ruin=Time, which makes sense if you think about it. Things that pass through time are either preserved or ruined. I guess Sazed's intention is more of balancing the two opposite powers instead of combining them, which is why he calls himself Harmony instead of Time.

Edited by skaa
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D'oh! I'm sorry for misunderstanding your earlier post, Phantom. I'd forgotten all about that chart's infor on the God Metals.  :lol: So, that makes the 16 "Misting alloys" Physical-Enhancement hybrids. Makes sense. I guess enhancing the body to use Allomancy requires some physical changes as well.

Becoming a mistborn is apparently a 'side effect' of the true action of lerasium.  It's possible it's related to that, or it might be that there are actually two alloys possible for each god metal (like lerasium with a little copper vs a copper with a little lerasium).

 

And Atium alloys are Temporal-Mental hybrids. I suspect that's because Ruin warps an Allomancer's way of thinking while using the temporal powers of Atium alloys.

Technically, all metals have a litle mental in them

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/289/mistborn-3-Chapter-Twenty-Six

Allomancy�s Mental Effects

An interesting side note is to watch how Allomancy—all of its forms—enhances the mind in some way. Though the original concept for the magic system focused on different powers—some physical, some mental—the final product always had a mental component

 

 

 

I don't like the idea of treating feruchemy as temporal in origin, since that makes compounding kinda nonsensical. 

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it might be that there are actually two alloys possible for each god metal (like lerasium with a little copper vs a copper with a little lerasium).

Whoa... that's a lot of alloys!  :o

 

Technically, all metals have a litle mental in them

That's true. But there has to be a reason why Brandon would make a separate quadrant for Mental Allomancy.

 

 

I don't like the idea of treating feruchemy as temporal in origin, since that makes compounding kinda nonsensical. 

How so? Compounding is Feruchemy+Allomancy, so there's more Preservation than Ruin. It's no longer a balance, so Preservation's end-positive nature is now in play. For example, the huge amount of Strength gained from Pewter Compounding did not all come from the user's stored strength (otherwise that would be nonsensical): most of it came from Preservation's power (Allomancy).

 

Edit: Also, I vaguely remember Brandon describing Feruchemy as temporal. I'll try to look it up.

Edited by skaa
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That's a really good point, I wasn't thinking of allomantic atium as being in terms of Ruin+Preservation
As for how compounding works with temporal feruchemy, that's because compounding is inherently allomantic, you're burning the metal as though it were an allomantic metal, just with a different power than the other 16 metals.

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Do you guys know any alternative theory that explains the similarity between Atium and Electrum? Or a theory about what the Atium-Electrum alloy actually does? I'd be willing to back a stronger, less controversial theory if there is one.

You motivated me to post my theory on this topic. It is highly controversial, and I'm probably the only one that endorses it. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3517-theory-allomantic-metals-correlate-to-a-shard/

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Whoa... that's a lot of alloys!  :o

Tons and tons, apparently. 

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=692

17TH SHARD

Are there a limited amount of atium and lerasium alloys for each metal?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hmm, yes…I suppose there would be but there are…

17TH SHARD

More than sixteen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, way more than sixteen.

17TH SHARD

Oh wow. Okay. That's fascinating. More than sixteen and less than infinite.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

 

 

How so? Compounding is Feruchemy+Allomancy, so there's more Preservation than Ruin. It's no longer a balance, so Preservation's end-positive nature is now in play. For example, the huge amount of Strength gained from Pewter Compounding did not all come from the user's stored strength (otherwise that would be nonsensical): most of it came from Preservation's power (Allomancy).

Describing it as temporal kinda implies that what you're doing is taking some units of strength and time travelling them into the future.  That's really not what's happening - you're converting some trait into a 'feruchemical charge', and then later converting the 'feruchemical charge' back into that trait.

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Tons and tons, apparently. 

 

Drats! And I was hoping to come up with a list of (just 16) possible Atium alloy powers before going to bed! :P

 

 

Describing it as temporal kinda implies that what you're doing is taking some units of strength and time travelling them into the future.  That's really not what's happening - you're converting some trait into a 'feruchemical charge', and then later converting the 'feruchemical charge' back into that trait.

 

Assuming that the charges are perfectly static and unchanging while inside the metalmind. that's actually indistinguishable from time travel. Suppose a Pulser (Temporal/External/Pulling Allomancer) flares so much Cadmium that months whiz by outside his bubble in a flash. That would be a form of time travel, yes? Now imagine what that Pulser would look like from the outside during those months. Indeed, he'd look perfectly still, frozen in time. That's exactly what is happening to a Feruchemical charge.

Edited by skaa
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Describing it as temporal kinda implies that what you're doing is taking some units of strength and time travelling them into the future.  That's really not what's happening - you're converting some trait into a 'feruchemical charge', and then later converting the 'feruchemical charge' back into that trait.

Now now Phantom, don't make me get the big guns out to argue about time-scuttling. You won't like me when I have to get the big guns out. :ph34r:

At the very least, how Feruchemy works on a base level is not a settled fact.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Assuming that the charges are perfectly static and unchanging while inside the metalmind. that's actually indistinguishable from time travel. Suppose a Pulser (Temporal/External/Pulling Allomancer) flares so much Cadmium that months whiz by outside his bubble in a flash. That would be a form of time travel, yes?

In the same way that I'm currently time travelling into the future at a rate of one second per second, yes.  You are still passing through every time in between (which hardly counts as time travel, really); you could accomplish exactly the same thing with a fast spaceship on a round trip.

 

 

 

 

 

Assuming that the charges are perfectly static and unchanging while inside the metalmind. that's actually indistinguishable from time travel happening to a Feruchemical charge.

That's time travel in the same way that you could have someone soulcast a bucket of blood into glass, then a hundred years later have someone else come back and soulcasts that glass into blood. 

 

Or in the same sense that cyrogenically freezing yourself, flying to alpha centauri, and waking up is 'instant travel'.

 

Charges can be messed with while inside the metalmind - nicrosil feruchemy and Ruin can destroy your charges or alter them freely.

 

If you're treating it as a 'teleport to the future' ability instead of a 'conversion' ability, then you have to answer

-Where does the attribute end up if the metalmind is destroyed.  It's being teleported *somewhere*

-Where in time does the excess attribute come from when compounding?

-Why does tapping out a lot of feruchemical charge require you to burn extra charges?  If it's a time-travel ability, then things should just show up in the future in exactly the amounts stored.  Where does the extra attribute go.  (And if you answer 'to fuel the tapping', how is your sense of smell going to fuel anything without being converted into some form of magical energy?)

-Why does time travelling things different distances into the future cost exactly the same amount?

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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Ah well, as I've abandoned the Atium-Electrum conspiracy theory already, let's turn this thread into a general discussion one! :D
 

In the same way that I'm currently time travelling into the future at a rate of one second per second, yes. You are still passing through every time in between (which hardly counts as time travel, really); you could accomplish exactly the same thing with a fast spaceship on a round trip.


Huh. Let me re-phrase, Phantom. Temporal-external-pulling powers are Temporal, right? Even in real world Physics, undergoing time-dilation is a non-controversial form of time travel. That's the same thing that happens while burning Cadmium. That's the same thing that happens when storing a Feruchemical charge.

Subjecting your Feruchemical charge to a 1sec/sec time dilation (a.k.a. no time dilation at all) is equivalent to saying that you tapped it the same second you stored it (or had not stored it at all). The longer you go from storing to tapping, the greater the time dilation becomes. Tapping a memory you stored twenty years ago is an incredible feat of time dilation, and not calling that time travel is an affront to all the modern physicists who've studied Einstein.

Sorry about that. I just finished a course on the Special Theory of Relativity, so the concept of time travel via time dilation is still fresh on my mind.
 

That's time travel in the same way that you could have someone soulcast a bucket of blood into glass, then a hundred years later have someone else come back and soulcasts that glass into blood.


Depends on the blood that appeared after you soulcast the glass. If it's indistinguishable from the blood you originally soulcast (you can test this), then yes, that would be time travel.

 

Charges can be messed with while inside the metalmind - nicrosil feruchemy and Ruin can destroy your charges or alter them freely.

If you're treating it as a 'teleport to the future' ability instead of a 'conversion' ability, then you have to answer
-Where does the attribute end up if the metalmind is destroyed. It's being teleported *somewhere*


Good point. It was silly of me to say that Feruchemical charges are "unchanging." They are just mostly so. A person riding a spaceship at .5c would be experiencing a noticeable time dilation, but he would still be able to move about in the ship (the ship would be like a Cadmium bubble to him). Someone else on a different ship could catch up with him, enter his ship, and then kill him, all while the ship is still undergoing time dilation. The same thing happens when a metalmind is destroyed via Investiture-overloading. You are sending tons of charges to "catch up" with the existing charges and overwhelm them.
 

-Where in time does the excess attribute come from when compounding?


The only Feruchemy part of Compounding is the initial creation of the metalmind (via initial storing), which changes the metalmind (possibly in all Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual realms) to enable it to act as a "time-dilation spaceship" for charges. When you burn that metalmind, you are now doing Allomancy: gaining power from the outside (usually from Preservation) based on the metalmind's structure. As Brandon has repeatedly said when describing Allomancy, the power no longer comes from the metal. So, the speed gained from burning an Steelmind does not come from the Steelmind. The Health gained from burining a Goldmind does not come from the Goldmind.

So, no time travel is involved during the actual burning of a metalmind. You are not tapping a metalmind when burning it. You're... burning it...
 

-Why does tapping out a lot of feruchemical charge require you to burn extra charges? If it's a time-travel ability, then things should just show up in the future in exactly the amounts stored. Where does the extra attribute go. (And if you answer 'to fuel the tapping', how is your sense of smell going to fuel anything without being converted into some form of magical energy?)
-Why does time travelling things different distances into the future cost exactly the same amount?


I don't really understand those questions, sorry. If by "tapping out" you mean burning out all of a metalmind, then the charges are destroyed (imagine your time-dilating space ship, with you in it, being disintegrated by a God-like cosmic force; you'd die).

Edited by skaa
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It should also be pointed out that without a temporal aspect to it, feruchemy would still need to deal with entropy, feruchemical charges should decay over time, but they don't.

 

What I want to know is how much an effect the amount of attribute you had stored in a metalmind has on how much power you get when you Compound that metalmind.

I'd say it'd effect the length of time you could burn it, just like having a larger metal reserve.
 

Edited by Voidus
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What I want to know is how much an effect the amount of attribute you had stored in a metalmind has on how much power you get when you Compound that metalmind.

 

None. A Goldmind that is almost empty would still be a Goldmind, so burning it would still give the user Health. (Which is very handy for people like Miles :D). The stored Health would be destroyed after the Goldmind is burnt out, so it won't make sense to store too much Health in a Goldmind that you're planning to burn later. Of course, it might still be handy to have regular metalminds to store Health if you end up running out of Goldminds in your stomach (e.g. if a Leecher touches you).

Edited by skaa
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Depends on the blood that appeared after you soulcast the glass. If it's indistinguishable from the blood you originally soulcast (you can test this), then yes, that would be time travel.

 

 

I don't think that's a good definition at all.  Let's say we've got a totally inert lump of metal - heck, make it 90% platinum, 10% iridium, just like the standard kilogram.

 

Even if it isn't doing anything, saying that it's in a 'temporal stasis' is kinda dumb.

 

 

It should also be pointed out that without a temporal aspect to it, feruchemy would still need to deal with entropy, feruchemical charges should decay over time, but they don't.

Or they decay over a time only measurable in terms of 10^100 years.  I mean, you leave a proton just sitting around, it isn't going to decay in any observable time span. 

 

If you don't have any energy transfer going on, you aren't really going to see a noticeable increase in entropy. 

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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Even if it isn't doing anything, saying that it's in a 'temporal stasis' is kinda dumb.

 

That's why I said it was silly of me to say that. ;) Read my reply again.

Edited by skaa
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The energy in a proton is miniscule compared to a filled metalmind, sure complete decay might take ages but it would still noticeably decay in some respect within an observable span.

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