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The Atium is a lie! (Sort of.)


skaa

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We all know that during the time of the Final Empire, Atium was harvested in the Pits of Hathsin. The harvesting had a peculiar quirk: Allomancy cannot be used in the vicinity of the Pits, otherwise the Atium geodes will shatter. The Steel Ministry had to process the harvested Atium geodes first and convert them into Atium nuggets before Ruin's body can actually be used by metalborn.

I think this fact, that Atium geodes shatter upon contact w/ Allomancy (Edit: perhaps just external Allomancy directed at the geodes), is very significant. I believe that it happens because Preservation's power negates Ruin, and so Ruin's body (i.e. Atium) cannot endure the presence of Allomancy. We know that Mistborn can use normal Allomancy without destroying their precious Atium reserves, so I began to wonder: What miraculous process was the Ministry using to make Ruin's body usable in Preservation's power? What made Atium nuggets different from raw Atium geodes?

 

(Edit: Almost everything above seems suspect now. I'll just leave it there for future reference.)

I remembered another peculiar thing about the Atium nuggets that were used during the Final Empire: Its Allomantic effect is just like that of Electrum, except you saw other people's shadows and not your own. And I remembered Malatium, the alloy of Gold and Atium, which was just like gold Allomantically except it, again, showed other people's shadows.

Then it hit me: The Atium being used in the Final Empire wasn't pure Atium at all! It was an alloy of Electrum and Atium! That's why the "Atium" no longer gets destroyed. The Steel Ministry alloyed the pure Atium with an Allomantic metal (in this case, electrum) and this made it Allomantically stable. (Edit: there's a lot of good arguments why the Lord Ruler and his Ministry didn't do the alloying themselves. Also, I no longer think that Allomancy is dangerous to Atium.)

 

This explains the Allomantic effect of burning this "Atium" and why it seems similar to Electrum. It had electrum in it! It could also explain why Malatium was the only other Atium alloy known during the Final Empire. Due to the chemical properties of silver and gold, it would have been easier to discover the silver component of Atium-Electrum (leading to the discovery of Malatium) than its gold component. Without removing the gold, the other Atium alloys couldn't have been discovered.


If our Brandonology experts declare that the above theory doesn't contradict WoB, then I plan to discuss other theories regarding Atium alloys. Meanwhile, I'd just like to list quickly some minor theories based on my thought process above:

  • Pure Lerasium cannot be used in Hemalurgy. Trying to pierce a person with a Lerasium spike will shatter it. (Edit: this might have contradicted WoB)
     
  • Lerasium alloys have Hemalurgic properties.
     
  • Atium's alloys have a similar (but non-identical) Allomantic effect to that of their non-Atium component. (Edit: it is said that all Atium alloys are mental-temporal. I don't know what this means regarding the 8 remaining physical/enhancement base metals.)
     
  • The "Atium" used to Feruchemically store Age is also the Atium-Electrum alloy. That's how it can be Compounded.
     
  • Edit: Alloying a metal that is already an Allomantic alloy produces an Allomantically-pulling alloy. This new minor theory is based on Phantom's comment below.
     
  • Edit: Since an alloy typically has a similar power to that of its primary metal, this suggests that the alloy of Atium and Electrum has more Electrum in it. This is good, because it allows for a more efficient use of rare Atium.
     

Edit: Given the difficulty of assuming that the Lord Ruler and the Ministry were alloying all the Atium they collected, I'm beginning to suspect it was Leras himself who did it, perhaps as another way to keep Atium away from Ati. He told Rashek about it, of course. It's possible that Sazed hadn't learned of this yet when he wrote the book he'd given to Spook. Since Leras is now out of the picture, I suspect pure Atium will appear in the future, giving people the chance to experiment with this God Metal and create more Atium alloys.

 

Edit: This theory is officially "Skaa's Atium Theory #1". I no longer subscribe to this theory, and am currently working on "Skaa's Atium Theory #2",  which will be incorporated into a bigger theory on the God Metals, and which will appear in another thread later.

Edited by skaa
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The atium itself isn't affected by Allomancy, just the crystals that generate it. The processing is just removing it from the geode and maybe combining/dividing nuggets.

 

There's also the fact that Kelsier would have had to get his hands on raw atium from the pits in order to make the malatium Vin uses, as you wouldn't be able to use the electrum/atium alloy to make it.

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This would mean all the Atium Mistings were really Electrum Mistings, probably? I like that. I always thought it was weird that there could even be an Atium Misting. I think there should only be 16 kinds.

edit: Electrum is gold and silver though. How would you get the silver out to make malatium without it being obvious what was going on?

Edited by Morsk
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I really like the way you're thinking, but for reasons already mentioned, I don't think you're correct.

 

Also, Sanderson has mentioned somewhere the reason Atium can be used for Allomantic purposes. It's basically because the metal isn't the source of power; it's a 'key' that allows one with the correct sDNA to access Preservation's power. The structure of the metal determines the form that power takes in the physical world. I'll dig the quote up later.

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I don't think physical focus deals with sDNA, at least I've never heard the two compared before. Brandon mentioned that something hidden inside the atoms of metal functioned as a link to a particular type of the Power of Creation, and I've been assuming it has to do with the waves contained inside the atoms. There are links to waves on every shardplanet so far. 

 

color waves on Nalthis, atomic waves on Scadrial, Sound waves on Roshar, and the Dor on Sel is described by frequency and wavelength. Somehow the pictures that are drawn as the physical focus must conform to wavelength and frequency patterns or they dont work to channel the Dor.

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We all know that during the time of the Final Empire, Atium was harvested in the Pits of Hathsin. The harvesting had a peculiar quirk: Allomancy cannot be used in the vicinity of the Pits, otherwise the Atium geodes will shatter. The Steel Ministry had to process the harvested Atium geodes first and convert them into Atium nuggets before Ruin's body can actually be used by metalborn.

It isn't 'can't use allomancy in the vicinity of the pits'. It's 'steelpushers and ironpullers can easily shatter the crystals by pushing and pulling on the trace atium'.

http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=ed1b6f08a985fe0dba3502ca5498f6ae&topic=5668.msg118158#msg118158

The Allomancers to keep out of the Pits would have been Lurchers or Coinshots (who could have destroyed the crystals), and to a lesser extent Thugs (who could be difficult to control.) Mistborn, of course, needed to be kept far, far away, lest they get their hands on atium.

Then it hit me: The Atium being used in the Final Empire wasn't pure Atium at all! It was an alloy of Electrum and Atium! That's why the "Atium" no longer shattered. The Steel Ministry alloyed the pure Atium with another metal (in this case, electrum) and this made it Allomantically burnable. This explains the Allomantic effect of burning this "Atium" and why it seems similar to Electrum. It had electrum in it!

Old theory, I'm afraid. There's a lot of evidence against it.

 

  • Pure Lerasium cannot be used in Hemalurgy. Trying to pierce a person with a Lerasium spike will shatter it.
Nope, we know that Lerasium can be used in hemalurgy.  What it does is 'next trilogies' stuff, though.

 

  • Atium's alloys have a similar (but non-identical) Allomantic effect to that of their non-Atium component.
"Various mental and temporal effects", according to the chart.
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"Various mental and temporal effects", according to the chart.

 

And on top of that, that answer was in response to someone asking what an atium-electrum alloy would look like, so unless Brandon was being sneaky, he doesn't think of atium-electrum as anything special.

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The atium itself isn't affected by Allomancy, just the crystals that generate it.

 

Allomancy affects the crystals because the crystals contain the Atium it generates, so the destruction of the Atium within destroys the crystals as well.

 

There's also the fact that Kelsier would have had to get his hands on raw atium from the pits in order to make the malatium Vin uses, as you wouldn't be able to use the electrum/atium alloy to make it.

 

Has anyone here read The Eleventh Metal short story yet? I'd like to know exactly how Kelsier obtained malatium. I suspect he didn't make it himself; he didn't even know if the metal was Allomantically sound or not.

 

Anyway, there is such a thing as gold parting, and I'm pretty sure this can be used to separate silver from Atium-Electrum and get Atium-Gold (a.k.a. Malatium). Imagine a chemist in a remote village experimenting with "Atium" (apparently because he didn't need wealth and... well, Science!) and discovering that he could extract silver from it. The leftover metal would be a complete mystery to the person. It would be an... Eleventh Metal.

 

 

This would mean all the Atium Mistings were really Electrum Mistings, probably?

 

No, "Atium" Mistings were Atium-Electrum Mistings. The Atium-Electrum alloy has a similar effect to Electrum, except the user sees shadows of other people, not himself.

 

 

http://twg.17thshard...18158#msg118158

The Allomancers to keep out of the Pits would have been Lurchers or Coinshots (who could have destroyed the crystals), and to a lesser extent Thugs (who could be difficult to control.) Mistborn, of course, needed to be kept far, far away, lest they get their hands on atium.

 

That could be an Aes Sedai response from Brandon. Lurchers and Coinshots would be more likely to attempt Allomancy in the Pits since the more foolish ones would think that seeing Allomantic Lines helps them get more Atium geodes, and Pewterarms are more likely to burn trace metals unconsciously.

 

My theory does not in any way contradict the wording of the statement about Mistborn. They definitely aren't good for pure Atium!

 

Also, notice the error in Brandon's post: he said "silver" instead of "tin". That might very well be a Freudian slip. Electrum is half silver, after all. :P

 

Old theory, I'm afraid. There's a lot of evidence against it.

There might be. Would you mind sharing links?

 

Nope, we know that Lerasium can be used in hemalurgy.  What it does is 'next trilogies' stuff, though.

No worries. I can let go of that minor theory. Preservation may just be more bad-chull than Ruin. :D

 

 

"Various mental and temporal effects", according to the chart.

Interesting. Could it mean that Atium can only be alloyed with the mental and temporal metals? Or is it that even the physical/enhancement ones will produce mental/temporal powers once alloyed with Atium?

 

 

And on top of that, that answer was in response to someone asking what an atium-electrum alloy would look like

He didn't answer the question directly, though. I wonder why...

 

 

so unless Brandon was being sneaky, he doesn't think of atium-electrum as anything special.

I think it's the opposite. He'd most certainly be aware of the blatantly obvious similarities between Electrum and Atium, and would expect people to ask about it. The fact that he didn't say what the Atium-Electrum alloy actually did means it's basically been RAFO'd, which suggests that it is something special (either that, or he's still figuring out how to explain away the similarities).

Edited by skaa
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The silver/tin switch is likely due to the fact that silver used to have tin's powers. Brandon still calls Tineyes, "Silvereyes" on occasion.

 

Yeah, I've read the Eleventh Metal.

 

Kel kills, Shelzer, a noble Mistborn for practice. When he's defeated he finds that Shezler's research on the possibility of an Eleventh metal.

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Allomancy affects the crystals because the crystals contain the Atium it generates, so the destruction of the Atium within destroys the crystals as well.

 

 

Has anyone here read The Eleventh Metal short story yet? I'd like to know exactly how Kelsier obtained malatium. I suspect he didn't make it himself; he didn't even know if the metal was Allomantically sound or not.

Kelsier, training with that crazy guy whose name escapes me kills a noble mistborn with an interest in metallurgy and recovers a treatise on the 11 metal. We don't see Kelsier make it, we don't see Kelsier read it, we simply see Kelsier take a book about it.

 

No, "Atium" Mistings were Atium-Electrum Mistings. The Atium-Electrum alloy has a similar effect to Electrum, except the user sees shadows of other people, not himself.

I don't agree with your theory, skaa old buddy, but here are some things that might help.

 

One interesting tidbit which may help your theory, is that I recall reading in one of the interviews (but for the life of me I can't find it anymore!)is that seeing the future was not something Ruin was good at... the question was along the lines of why couldn't Ruin see Preservations plan before he enacted it. This has made Atium and its relation to Temporal Allomantic effects really odd to me... I mean, I can figure out why it might be the case, but the fact that it needs me to make an explanation around it marks it as an oddity.

 

Here's something else which I'm not sure I have the significance of yet:

 

Czanos (17 October 2008)

Are Atium and the External Temporal Pulling metal really the same?
Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)
You are on to something.
 

 

That could be an Aes Sedai response from Brandon. Lurchers and Coinshots would be more likely to attempt Allomancy in the Pits since the more foolish ones would think that seeing Allomantic Lines helps them get more Atium geodes, and Pewterarms are more likely to burn trace metals unconsciously.

 

My theory does not in any way contradict the wording of the statement about Mistborn. They definitely aren't good for pure Atium!

I too got the impression from the trilogy that using Allomancy around the Atium forming crystals would destroy them (not just because Allomancy can be destructive...I got the impression even burning Gold in the presence of the crystals would destroy them)... and I never thought about what this would mean for Atium itself (You're a clever skaa... too clever! I'm reducing your rations!)... however I imagine it has to do with the power being... inert... in its metal form. Vin had to take out her...

 

SPOILER (Also, can someone tell me how to make the spoiler boxes?)

 

...hemalurgic spike when approaching the well, because the power was in its non-inert form, but I imagine she could have easily approached the Lerasium bead. Of course, this is speculation and I believe it is intuitive speculation, but it doesn't counter your theory. 

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That could be an Aes Sedai response from Brandon. Lurchers and Coinshots would be more likely to attempt Allomancy in the Pits since the more foolish ones would think that seeing Allomantic Lines helps them get more Atium geodes, and Pewterarms are more likely to burn trace metals unconsciously.

He explicitly said that a tineye wouldn't cause any problems, even if they got their metal and used it. The Lord Ruler is vengeful, but it would be idiotic to drop Mare in the pits otherwise.

The silver thing is addressed a couple posts down in the linked thread. As previously mentioned, tin used to be silver in an earlier draft.

http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6655.msg129262#msg129262

"4. Every metal has a Feruchemical, an Allomantic, and a Hemalurgic property. The godly metals each also do something else. There are several interesting Feruchemical powers yet to be discovered and revealed in the next series. Feruchemy is less widely understood because there were so few practitioners in the modern era, and a lot of the time they were too afraid of capture to really study and use their powers."

Atium definitely has an allomantic property.

So in conclusion:

The crystals only shatter when pushed or pulled - nearby allomancy doesn't cause any issues in and of itself. So there isn't any problem when allomancers people interact with atium.

Note that the atium in the kandra homeland was burned and acted normally. They were just pure nuggets - not alloyed with anything. In fact, it didn't even leave the pits.

"Most of that atium never left the Pits of Hathsin," Haddek said. "There were obligators on staff at all times—but never Inquisitors, for the Father knew that they could be corrupted. The obligators broke the geodes in secret, inside of a metal room constructed for the purpose, then took out the atium."

There are numerous mentions of atium being condensed power of Ruin. You have to throw all those out, along with the Word of Brandon on the hemalurgic experiments the Inquistors conducted on atium, and the power of atium itself - atium is better than any other metal when used in hemalurgy, and can be used for any attribute.

Also, all alloys are pushing metals. Atium is a pulling metal.

Here's something else which I'm not sure I have the significance of yet:

Czanos (17 October 2008)

Are Atium and the External Temporal Pulling metal really the same?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

You are on to something.

Referring to bendalloy/cadmium, which were unknown at the time.

One interesting tidbit which may help your theory, is that I recall reading in one of the interviews (but for the life of me I can't find it anymore!)is that seeing the future was not something Ruin was good at... the question was along the lines of why couldn't Ruin see Preservations plan before he enacted it. This has made Atium and its relation to Temporal Allomantic effects really odd to me... I mean, I can figure out why it might be the case, but the fact that it needs me to make an explanation around it marks it as an oddity.

Atium isn't really the same as shardic energy use per se. Remember that ruin and preservation were in a deadlock, so the energy use to try to determine the future on Ruin's part (something that he's bad at, and is unnatural to him) would give Preservation a bunch of leeway elsewhere. Ruin is incapable of backing down.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727

As a note here, the powers granted by all of the metals—even the two divine ones—are not themselves of either Shard. They are simply tools. And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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He explicitly said that a tineye wouldn't cause any problems, even if they got their metal and used it. The Lord Ruler is vengeful, but it would be idiotic to drop Mare in the pits otherwise.

I would like to see this quote, if possible. It makes some sense, but I don't remember it having been said.

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I would like to see this quote, if possible. It makes some sense, but I don't remember it having been said.

http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=ed1b6f08a985fe0dba3502ca5498f6ae&topic=5668.msg118158#msg118158

Also note that while Mare was an Allomancer, she wasn't what one would call a "dangerous" Allomancer. She was a Tineye, which isn't one of the top tier martial powers. She couldn't have used atium, and even if she HAD somehow found silver, she'd simply have been able to hear and see better. Which would have made her better at finding the atium.

The Allomancers to keep out of the Pits would have been Lurchers or Coinshots (who could have destroyed the crystals), and to a lesser extent Thugs (who could be difficult to control.) Mistborn, of course, needed to be kept far, far away, lest they get their hands on atium.

There's more going on here, of course. If I ever write the Kelsier short story that talks about him discovering the Eleventh Metal, I will get into why the Inquisitors weren't given Mare as they wanted. The Lord Ruler specifically chose to send her to the Pits rather than handing her over to the Inquisitors. (Note: She wouldn't have ended up on a hook. Inquisitors had other...uses for skaa Mistings they captured. See book three.)

In fact, this already has too many spoilers. Ask me more after Mistborn 3 is out.

So yeah, even if she got access to her metal, it would have just made her a better mineslave.
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Note that the atium in the kandra homeland was burned and acted normally. They were just pure nuggets - not alloyed with anything. In fact, it didn't even leave the pits.There are numerous mentions of atium being condensed power of Ruin. You have to throw all those out, along with the Word of Brandon on the hemalurgic experiments the Inquistors conducted on atium, and the power of atium itself - atium is better than any other metal when used in hemalurgy, and can be used for any attribute.

 

This pretty much closes it for me. Well done Phantom! To suggest that the Obligators went to the trouble of alloying all of the Atium they were squirrling away, the only recourse for the theory that I can see, seems to be crossing the line into conspiracy theory thinking to my mind.

Atium isn't really the same as shardic energy use per se.

Of course, hence my inert remarks. However it is "condensed power of Ruin" as you yourself just remarked.

Remember that ruin and preservation were in a deadlock, so the energy use to try to determine the future on Ruin's part (something that he's bad at, and is unnatural to him)

This is the quote I'm looking for, do you know where it is?

would give Preservation a bunch of leeway elsewhere. Ruin is incapable of backing down.

Well... enough leeway to be pretty much in balance with Ruin anyway (countering the effects of Preservation being slightly less powerful because of there being slightly more Preservation than Ruin in Scadrians).

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I think this is what you want?

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836

Zas

So what's up with the regeneration issue?

Brandon Sanderson

[looks confused]

Zas

With Shards? Because they only have so much power they can access at a certain time, but yet they still have more energy. So how does that work? Is it just they have so much power they can use at any given time?

Brandon Sanderson

[still slightly confused] What are you talking about? Like which shards?

Zas

Ruin and Preservation. Since we know the most about them.

Brandon Sanderson

Ruin and Preservation were a specific instance, because almost all their energy was thrown into resisting each other. Keep that in mind. Even after Preservation was only a shadow, basically all of it was "Let's keep Ruin from destroying the world". So they were polar opposites. Set in balance. But slightly unbalanced in a couple of ways, that eventually, that slight imbalance [led to the Mistborn Trilogy]. They are a special case, because of that.

Zas

So then why are they hesitant to directly fuel Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Why are they hesitant to? What do you mean by directly fuel Allomancy?

Zas

You mention in the Hero of Ages Q&A that they can directly fuel Allomancy, like Vin does with Elend, but it requires expending their energy in a way they are hesitant to do.

Brandon Sanderson

Because it imbalances them more. Does that make sense? So if you are putting your energy here, rather than fighting the other force, that gives them an edge somewhere else, while trying to gain an edge here. And you have to make sure that's really worth it. Like a chess game. Is it worth sacrificing my pawn here to expose myself over here.

Zas

That makes sense.

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Oh, that.  No direct confirmation (though we know that shards are variable in strength for future sight). 

 

There are a few secondary ones, like getting outmanuevered by Leras, being totally unable to see Vin's attack coming, and not doing a 'hall of mirrors' against duraluminium Elend.

 

 

Heck, if it were easier for Ruin to see the future personally, he wouldn't have given Marsh any atium.  He'd have just snarfed that tiny piece of power back, then foresaw while puppeteering Marsh.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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But... but... the shadows! The similarity! The pattern! *mumbles incoherently and cries in a corner*

Oh well. The following replies will be a half-hearted attempt to save the ideas in the first post. You've all made some really good arguments. I still think the similarity between Atium and Electrum is significant, though. If it's not an alloy, perhaps there's an even cooler explanation. We'll see.
 

He explicitly said that a tineye wouldn't cause any problems, even if they got their metal and used it. The Lord Ruler is vengeful, but it would be idiotic to drop Mare in the pits otherwise.

The silver thing is addressed a couple posts down in the linked thread. As previously mentioned, tin used to be silver in an earlier draft.Atium definitely has an allomantic property.

Well, I could revise the theory to say that pure Atium only reacts to external Allomancy. It would make sense, since internal Allomancy only affects the user so there's no reason for it to affect the Atium geodes. The other external metals known to people at the time (Zinc and Brass) have powers that won't be used inside of the Pits. You won't feel the need to Riot/Soothe when you're crawling all alone inside a tight tunnel.
 

Note that the atium in the kandra homeland was burned and acted normally. They were just pure nuggets - not alloyed with anything.

The "Atium" in the kandra homeland would be Atium-Electrum, too, since the geodes were already processed by the Ministry before leaving the Pits, as can be seen in the text you quoted:

 

"Most of that atium never left the Pits of Hathsin," Haddek said. "There were obligators on staff at all times—but never Inquisitors, for the Father knew that they could be corrupted. The obligators broke the geodes in secret, inside of a metal room constructed for the purpose, then took out the atium."

We know one reason why the geodes were processed in secret (to hide the fact that most of them are being squirreled off), but what if there was another reason? Say, some backdoor alloying going on...

 

There are numerous mentions of atium being condensed power of Ruin. You have to throw all those out, along with the Word of Brandon on the hemalurgic experiments the Inquistors conducted on atium, and the power of atium itself - atium is better than any other metal when used in hemalurgy, and can be used for any attribute.

That doesn't contradict my theory at all. Atium-Electrum still contains the condensed power of Ruin... just alloyed with something else. And I never said anything about Atium Hemalurgy. For all we know, stabbing a person with a pure Atium spike negates Allomancy's anti-Atium nature the same way alloying does. Or perhaps Atium alloys like Atium-Electrum all have crazy powerful Hemalurgic characteristics.

 

Also, all alloys are pushing metals. Atium is a pulling metal.

What of an alloy of an Allomantic alloy (e.g. an alloy of Electrum)? Might there not be a reversing involved? I might research on the components of the known Allomantic alloys later to see if any of their constituent components are Allomantic alloys themselves, but perhaps someone here already knows.

 

This pretty much closes it for me. Well done Phantom! To suggest that the Obligators went to the trouble of alloying all of the Atium they were squirrling away, the only recourse for the theory that I can see, seems to be crossing the line into conspiracy theory thinking to my mind.

TLR predicted that Ruin will one day escape, and that Atium-Electrum Mistings will become essential in defeating Ruin and his Hemalurgic army. Surely a bit of obsessiveness with alloying Atium can be forgiven.

Regarding the Shardic Theory comments, I am aware that the non-God metals don't really have Preservation or Ruin's power in them, that they are just a focus for their power. But the God Metals have to be different, because they are the condensed form of Shardic power.

If my theory is true, then the term "Atium" can mean two things: either (1) the pure Atium, or (2) the "Atium" known during the Final Empire (i.e. Atium-Electrum). Brandon can legitimately use either definition when doing interviews. It allows him to equivocate whenever answering Atium-related questions, at least until the day he decides to reveal the fact. So even WoB might be fuzzy. For example, consider the following purely hypothetical exchange between Brandon and a fan:

Fan: Hey, Brandon! I was wondering about Atium. It's Ruin's body, right? How come Allomancers can use Preservation's power to burn Atium?

Brandon: Yes, Atium(1) is Ruin's body. When Allomancers burn Atium(2), they aren't really accessing Ruin's power, but only using the Atium(2) as a focus for Preservation's power.

In that exchange, the fan will never realize what Brandon was doing (unless he's Skip). It's the perfect way to keep a juicy plot point hidden without having to say "RAFO!" (which would only make fans more curious, anyway).

All that aside, I wouldn't really be surprised if ingesting a pure Atium bead would actually affect an Allomancer somehow before it self-destructs. So one could say that pure Atium does have an Allomantic purpose (though probably not a nice one).
 

You're a clever skaa... too clever! I'm reducing your rations!

Nooo!!! *sobs*

Edited by skaa
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The Lord Ruler also included instructions on how to make Malatium on one of his plates.  It would have been very noteworthy if the instructions on the plate were 'take the silver out of atium+gold+silver nuggets'.

 

 

 

You won't feel the need to Riot/Soothe when you're crawling all alone inside a tight tunnel.

 

Heck yeah you would.  You'd try to mess with the emotions of the guards to make them less attentive, get the other prisoners to give you their food and geodes, trick the obligators or whatever.  Again, Brandon said they had to worry about steel/iron because they could destroy crystals.  If destroying crystals was a criteria to keep mistings out, soothers and rioters would've been ones to keep out. 

 

 

What of an alloy of an Allomantic alloy (e.g. an alloy of Electrum)? Might there not be a reversing involved? I might research on the components of the known Allomantic alloys later to see if any of their constituent components are Allomantic alloys themselves, but perhaps someone here already knows.

That's kinda grasping at straws.

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LOL, I really wouldn't mind letting this theory go if I could, but my mind keeps on coming up with counter-arguments like crazy. Sorry guys.

Let's see what you make of this batch.
 

Voidus, on 18 May 2013 - 11:57, said:
Even when Kel does burn Iron it's not until he actually pulls on the geodes that they crack, so it's definitely reacting to the force of the pull, not the allomancy.


I already amended my theory to account for that. You need to actually be using external Allomancy (i.e. "pulling" or "pushing" on the geode) to affect the geode.

More importantly, if you won't accept the theory that Preservation's power affects the Atium inside the geode, you'd still have to explain why the Atium can no longer be extracted once the geode is shattered. Surely a Lurcher prisoner that accidentally shatters a geode could just Pull the Atium bead out and hand that over instead. But no, we are lead to believe that the destruction of a geode is always a bad thing for Atium collectors.

The beauty of my theory is that it explains that mystery: the Atium bead self-destructed. That's why it's no longer there.
 

 

Phantom Monstrosity, on 18 May 2013 - 12:06, said:
The Lord Ruler also included instructions on how to make Malatium on one of his plates. It would have been very noteworthy if the instructions on the plate were 'take the silver out of atium+gold+silver nuggets'.


Not really. "Combine Atium and antimony, then heat the mixture in a closed container" will not trigger any warning signs for people like Vin and Elend. The obligators (or at least a chosen group within their ranks) already knew about the alloy nature of "Atium", and they were the intended recipients of those plates.

 

Phantom Monstrosity, on 18 May 2013 - 12:06, said:
Heck yeah you would. You'd try to mess with the emotions of the guards to make them less attentive, get the other prisoners to give you their food and geodes, trick the obligators or whatever.

You won't do any of that while inside the actual tunnels, though. There'd be no one to Soothe or Riot. Heck, I could even revise my theory again to require that geodes be the actual target of the external Allomancy. Nobody's gonna try to Riot a geode (if they even could; I think emotional Allomancy requires that you can sense the mind of your target, though I may be wrong).

 

Phantom Monstrosity, on 18 May 2013 - 12:06, said:
That's kinda grasping at straws.

Is it? If alloying an Allomantic metal reverses its direction, I feel that the following should be perfectly valid (in an environment where magical rules are valid, anyway):

Elemental metal = pulling
Elemental metal + X = pushing
(Elemental metal + X) + Atium = pulling

In fact, it would be weird if it weren't like this. Do you really expect all 16 Atium alloys be Allomantically-pushing?

Edited by skaa
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 already amended my theory to account for that. You need to actually be using external Allomancy (i.e. "pulling" or "pushing" on the geode) to affect the geode.

More importantly, if you won't accept the theory that Preservation's power affects the Atium inside the geode, you'd still have to explain why the Atium can no longer be extracted once the geode is shattered. Surely a Lurcher prisoner that accidentally shatters a geode could just Pull the Atium bead out and hand that over instead. But no, we are lead to believe that the destruction of a geode is always a bad thing for Atium collectors.

The beauty of my theory is that it explains that mystery: the Atium bead self-destructed. That's why it's no longer there.

You're essentially saying the same thing we are now, that it's not the allomancy that's important, it's the effect of that allomancy on the geode causing it to shatter, merely using Allomancy in the vicinity isn't enough, even using allomancy in a way that kind of targets the geode (The blue lines) isn't enough, you need to exert a force on them.

As for why they don't just pull the beads out anyway, that's because they'd get exactly one crop out of that, then need to wait a few centuries for the crystals to regenerate, while they're not shattered they seem to provide a relatively steady output, when they get shattered that stops until they regrow.

 

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More importantly, if you won't accept the theory that Preservation's power affects the Atium inside the geode, you'd still have to explain why the Atium can no longer be extracted once the geode is shattered. Surely a Lurcher prisoner that accidentally shatters a geode could just Pull the Atium bead out and hand that over instead. But no, we are lead to believe that the destruction of a geode is always a bad thing for Atium collectors.

The sequence is

 

Crystals on the wall- > Produce Geodes with atium at the core - > Atium is broken out of the geodes

It's just like how there were ceramics around the lerasium beads - you get some filler next to the active metal.

 

 

His hand quivered with anticipation as he felt the crystal buds. Yes, yes, that was them. They grew in a wide, circular pattern on the wall; they were small at the edges, but got grad-ually bigger near the center. At the direct middle of the circular pattern, the crystals curved inward, following a pocketlike hollow in the wall. Here, the crystals grew long, each one having a jagged, sharp edge. Like teeth lining the maw of a stone beast. Taking a breath, praying to the Lord Ruler, Walin rammed his hand into the fist-sized, circular opening. The crystals ripped his arm, tearing long, shallow gashes in his skin. He ignored the pain, forcing his arm in further, up to his elbow, searching with his fingers for...

There!His fingers found a small rock at the center of the pocket—a rock formed by the mysterious drippings of the crystals. A Hathsin geode.

He grasped it eagerly, pulling it out, ripping his arm again as he withdrew it from the crystal-lined hole. He cradled the small rock sphere, breathing heavily with joy.

 

Now the real test,Kelsier thought, squeezing down further into the crack. He burned iron, and immediately he saw sev-eral blue lines pointing downward, toward atium-holes.  Though the holes themselves probably didn’t have an atium geode in them, the crystals themselves gave off faint blue lines. They contained residual amounts of atium.

Kelsier focused on one of the blue lines and Pulled lightly.

His tin enhanced ears heard something shatter in the crack beneath him.

Kelsier smiled.

Nearly three years before, standing over the bloody corpses of the taskmasters who had beaten Mare to death, he had first noticed that he could use iron to sense where crystal pockets were. He’d barely understood his Allomantic powers at the time, but even then, a plan had begun to form in his mind. A plan for vengeance.

That plan had evolved, growing to encompass so much more than he’d originally intended. However, one of its key parts had remained sequestered away in a corner of his mind.  He could find the crystal pockets. He could shatter them, using Allomancy.

 

You aren't using allomancy to destroy the atium bead. 

 

You're using allomancy to destroy the crystal structures that produce the atium geodes.  The issue isn't 'zomg we don't have that atium bead', it's 'zomg we can't produce atium until those crystals come back, three hundred years later'.

 

 

You won't do any of that while inside the actual tunnels, though. There'd be no one to Soothe or Riot.

So now you're even further limiting it to that 'you have to target them with external allomancy', instead of using external allomancy nearby?

 

 

Not really. "Combine Atium and antimony, then heat the mixture in a closed container" will not trigger any warning signs for people like Vin and Elend. The obligators (or at least a chosen group within their ranks) already knew about the alloy nature of "Atium", and they had absolutely no reason to tell their secret to anyone else, or to even hint that there was any secret at all.

Nope, Lord Ruler lists what the compound is.  

 

Beneath that was listed an Allomantic compound of metals, one with which Vin was already familiar. It was the alloy of atium they called malatium—Kelsier's Eleventh Metal. So the Lord Ruler had known about it. He'd simply been as baffled as the rest of them as to its purpose.

 

And you have to theorize that the lord ruler doesn't mention it despite mentioning every metal he knows - including the useless ones, along with giving the secret to controlling kandra.  It's not like ruin wouldn't know about any alloying of atium going on.

 

Also, if it were an alloy

Atium, then, was an object that was one-sided. Instead of being composed of half Ruin and half Preservation—as, say, a rock would be—atium was completely of Ruin. The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away during the betrayal and imprisonment. Kelsier didn't truly destroy this place by shattering those crystals, for they would have regrown eventually—in a few hundred years—and continued to deposit atium, as the place was a natural outlet for Ruin's trapped power.

When people burned atium, then, they were drawing upon the power of Ruin—which is, perhaps, why atium turned people into such efficient killing machines. They didn't use up this power, however, but simply made use of it. Once a nugget of atium was expended, the power would return to the Pits and begin to coalesce again—just as the power at the Well of Ascension would return there again after it had been used

It wouldn't be one-sided if it were an alloy - it'd be like, 50% pure ruin and 50% mixture.  And Sazed clarifies that he's talking about the stuff that comes out of the pits directly.  And that it turns people into killing machines.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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