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SPOILERS! ---Does Kaladin like Shallan, and Vice Versa?---


ChullRider

  

232 members have voted

  1. 1. Does Kaladin Like Shallan?

    • Yes
      149
    • No
      26
    • Maybe
      51
    • ???
      6
  2. 2. Does Shallan like Kaladin?

    • Yes
      99
    • No
      42
    • Maybe
      86
    • ???
      5


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I feel that Shallan and Kaladin will get together in subsequent books. My reasoning: for one; who said Kaladin killed her brother? It is implied... but we all know how much Brandon loves his twists, and after Mraize tells Shallan that her brother went to find the Skybreakers I believe he could be a surgebinder meaning he wouldn't have used the blade due to the screaming. And as for her being light eyes  being an issue, throughout the book she uses Veil as an alter ego, I feel this is going to be expanded to the point where she finds being Veil is more freeing than being herself. As pattern warns that she needs to learn the difference between a lie and truth as it's too easy to lose yourself in the lie. And after the events of the chasm she told Adolin off for saying he'd protect her as she views it as a gilded cage. While all Kaladin and Shallan have ever wanted is freedom. Freedom from slavery, and freedom from fear. Also as for her 'needing' the marriage, she's a radiant. She doesn't need a marriage to protect her family.

Edited by Light Weaver
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/25/2015 at 5:44 PM, 6000j said:

This supports the Theory a lot.

It doesn't just support it, it sort of pretty much atleast guarantees Kaladin is gonna be all weird in book three about it. 

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On July 25, 2015 at 5:09 AM, Seloun said:

There is so much evidence that it seems almost deliberately misleading.

This is Sanderson.  There's no almost about it.  It's either deliberately misleading, or deliberately misleading us into thinking it's misleading. :ph34r:

I definitely agree that there's something there, but I think it's the type of thing that should blossom into friendship/rivalry, rather than a love triangle.

Edit: Kalak's beard, that's an old post I'm replying to!  Doesn't matter, though, and I only quoted it because @Rellar was referring to it, so I'm going to stop worrying.

jW

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 minute ago, Erklitt said:

What? When? How? By whom? What did I miss? (Groooaaaaan, o no pleeeeaaaase noooooooo !!!)

It is not confirmed. I think Asasasyn simply meant to express a personal preference and by reading the thread, he perhaps think it is more obvious. Nothing has been confirmed and Brandon would never offer such confirmation: it is way too RAFO. 

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4 minutes ago, maxal said:

It is not confirmed. I think Asasasyn simply meant to express a personal preference and by reading the thread, he perhaps think it is more obvious. Nothing has been confirmed and Brandon would never offer such confirmation: it is way too RAFO.

Wasn't entirely serious - just amused about that post. But thanks anyway for the reassurance! ;)

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1 minute ago, Erklitt said:

Wasn't entirely serious - just amused about that post. But thanks anyway for the reassurance! ;)

The author has confirmed there would be a non-traditional love triangle, but he never confirmed who would end up with you providing anyone ends up with anyone. Currently, Kaladin is far away, but we can bet he will be back before the end of book 3. Adolin and Shallan are closed by, but Adolin is going into a bad place right now and Shallan being very self-centered, she is bound not to support him. Add to the fact she hasn't told him anything of value about herself which may genuinely hurt already distressed Adolin, I'd say it is safe to bet these two won't be love birds for too long.

The question should then be, once the truth bursts out, all of the truth, what will be left of those relationships? 

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I agree that Kaladin has some feelings toward Shallan (which he is more or less aware of...probably less), though I feel like it could have two conclusions: 1) Kaladin admitting to himself that he likes Shallan, but totally giving way to Adolin & Shallan since he wouldn't step into that relationship (at least, as it is presented thus far.)  I think this has already been said, but I really think that Kaladin would not step over Adolin.  2) Kaladin's initial interest/attraction to Shallan develops into a friendship.  Almost like a brother-sister bond.

As far as Shallan, I really don't think she cares for Kaladin at all in the romantic sense.  She may be intrigued by him (more often annoyed by him) but it seems clear that even despite their time in the chasms, she in the end shows more attraction for Adolin.  Even if Adolin weren't in the picture, in the end of WoR (after the chasm experience) Shallan and Kaladin have almost no conversation.  No moment to share or relate that they are both Radiants; Kaladin is like: oh yeah, Shallan's a Radiant. I figured.  And then Shallan doesn't even seem to have any reaction to Kaladin's powers.  Then he leaves - no tears, no good-byes, no inner monologue of pining-potential-crush-love for either character.  So, if Sanderson does create a love triangle, I feel like the "love" will be from Kaladin's side (and probably not acted upon) rather than Shallan's.

I notice people were quoting when Kaladin sees Shallan's smile and thinks it's the most beautiful thing.  I felt like that could be genuine attraction, but almost more in the sense of awe and wonder.  Here Kaladin has never been able to smile in the face of darkness and sadness.  Especially in WoR it gets harder and harder for him to be positive at all. So the fact that Shallan has seen and lived horrors similar to his own, yet, smiles...is incredibly beautiful to him; precisely because he is so unable to do so.  Deep down he wants to overcome but doesn't know how; Shallan shows him it's possible. 

Another thought:  I feel like Kaladin, Son of Honor, would have a hard time relating on a deeper level to Shallan, the Lightweaver creating lies with her powers.  I know other posts support the whole opposites attract idea, but I am not so sure....

For one thing, Kaladin cannot abide deception of any kind, and I feel like he would resent that Shallan's radiant powers revolve around her ability to deceive - and manipulate.  Even though he's initially taken with her ability to smile in the face of darkness and despair, this is ultimately her lying to herself (I think) and trying to avoid truth.  Whereas, Kaladin is always fighting for truth.  His whole hatred of lighteyes is based on the fact that he has been deceived and betrayed by them throughout his life.  They were never honest, they always hid behind a charade of honor but secretly succumbed to greed and evil.  Ultimately, he abhors lies.  Shallan on the other hand, lives lies.  She is in some sense a deceiver - even if she uses this for good.  Because of this very fundamental difference, I don't think Kaladin could ever respect her.  He may be attracted to her, but deep down his honor would always conflict with her lightweaving abilities.

That was more long-winded than I wanted. Hope that makes sense!

 

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39 minutes ago, Tharatariel10 said:

I agree that Kaladin has some feelings toward Shallan (which he is more or less aware of...probably less), though I feel like it could have two conclusions: 1) Kaladin admitting to himself that he likes Shallan, but totally giving way to Adolin & Shallan since he wouldn't step into that relationship (at least, as it is presented thus far.)  I think this has already been said, but I really think that Kaladin would not step over Adolin.  2) Kaladin's initial interest/attraction to Shallan develops into a friendship.  Almost like a brother-sister bond.

As far as Shallan, I really don't think she cares for Kaladin at all in the romantic sense.  She may be intrigued by him (more often annoyed by him) but it seems clear that even despite their time in the chasms, she in the end shows more attraction for Adolin.  Even if Adolin weren't in the picture, in the end of WoR (after the chasm experience) Shallan and Kaladin have almost no conversation.  No moment to share or relate that they are both Radiants; Kaladin is like: oh yeah, Shallan's a Radiant. I figured.  And then Shallan doesn't even seem to have any reaction to Kaladin's powers.  Then he leaves - no tears, no good-byes, no inner monologue of pining-potential-crush-love for either character.  So, if Sanderson does create a love triangle, I feel like the "love" will be from Kaladin's side (and probably not acted upon) rather than Shallan's.

I notice people were quoting when Kaladin sees Shallan's smile and thinks it's the most beautiful thing.  I felt like that could be genuine attraction, but almost more in the sense of awe and wonder.  Here Kaladin has never been able to smile in the face of darkness and sadness.  Especially in WoR it gets harder and harder for him to be positive at all. So the fact that Shallan has seen and lived horrors similar to his own, yet, smiles...is incredibly beautiful to him; precisely because he is so unable to do so.  Deep down he wants to overcome but doesn't know how; Shallan shows him it's possible. 

Another thought:  I feel like Kaladin, Son of Honor, would have a hard time relating on a deeper level to Shallan, the Lightweaver creating lies with her powers.  I know other posts support the whole opposites attract idea, but I am not so sure....

For one thing, Kaladin cannot abide deception of any kind, and I feel like he would resent that Shallan's radiant powers revolve around her ability to deceive - and manipulate.  Even though he's initially taken with her ability to smile in the face of darkness and despair, this is ultimately her lying to herself (I think) and trying to avoid truth.  Whereas, Kaladin is always fighting for truth.  His whole hatred of lighteyes is based on the fact that he has been deceived and betrayed by them throughout his life.  They were never honest, they always hid behind a charade of honor but secretly succumbed to greed and evil.  Ultimately, he abhors lies.  Shallan on the other hand, lives lies.  She is in some sense a deceiver - even if she uses this for good.  Because of this very fundamental difference, I don't think Kaladin could ever respect her.  He may be attracted to her, but deep down his honor would always conflict with her lightweaving abilities.

That was more long-winded than I wanted. Hope that makes sense!

 

I thought this was a very good post, but it made me wonder (well technically, I have been wondering about it for a while, but you have just echoed my thoughts) if Shallan would be the right match for Adolin. If Kaladin wouldn't be able to accept her powers are tied in to her ability to lie and deceive because of his conception of honor, what is to say of honest, straight-forward Adolin who genuinely wants to marry someone he loves and who would love him back? How could he ever be fine with marrying someone who lies to him about everything simply because she is incapable of facing the truth?

Could it be no one will end up with Shallan because she is too deceiving to make it work with anyone?

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@maxal @Tharatariel10: I'm with both of you in thinking - and hoping - that Shaladin will never happen. But I'm rooting for Shadolin. I'm not exactly a fan of Shallan, it took me two entire readings to even start to like her just a little. But I wouldn't say she is deceiving in nature, and I can absolutely see her with Adolin if both get over a few issues.

For most of her life, she lied primarily to herself because she just couldn't live with the truth of her actions. Actions which we know were (though terrible when taken out of context) once in self-defense and once in defense of another. The third, or rather first time - that garden scene - we don't know enough about yet.

She definitely takes to and delights in Illumination - the 'deceiving surge'. But her motives are not those of a classic con artist - just compare her to Tyn. She's not in it for personal gain and not even for the satisfaction of having been able to take someone in. She wants to save humanity, and she takes pride in a job well done, like an actor who played his part in a movie well. (This btw is something she has in common with Kaladin, but that's neither here nor there.) She also enjoys the self-exploration: how much of Veil is an act, how much is really her? I think that even in her Illumination, while using it for practical purposes, she also seeks for truth.

My guess: when Shallan reveals more of herself to Adolin, that may lead to a few bumps in their relationship. But they might be able to work it out, and be good for each other: Adolin grounding Shallan in reality, Shallan helping Adolin out when he's a little too 'mentally direct'. (I loved that phrase!!)

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My take on this is FAR less well thought out and well worded compared to @Tharatariel10's reasoning. I'm just a raging Shadolin fan who sees a realistic relationship between Shallan and Adolin that's being very well handled. I also feel like too often in fiction relationships are presented early on just to be overturned for the more dramatic option, and a lot of times the reasons behind the change of heart (usually one sided, I'm looking at you rom-coms) doesn't really hold up under a lot of scrutiny. I'm positively giddy at the idea that we might potentially get to spend eight whole books exploring a romance...it would allow for a lot of development and interesting content without needing to be rushed or pushed to the foreground lest we forget it exists in the middle of all the other turmoil happening. 

As far as Kaladin goes, in the simplest terms I just don't feel like he needs a romance. Never while I was reading the books did I feel like that was missing from his character, and I never felt a desire to read a romance involving him. :) Only time will tell I guess!

At least we can all agree that Dalinar and Navani are the greatest. 

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12 minutes ago, esamitch said:

[...]

At least we can all agree that Dalinar and Navani are the greatest. 

I'm going to shock you :): no we don't all agree.

For the long version, just check out this thread:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/54885-is-it-just-me-or-do-you-really-dont-like-navani/

One of my focuses on my current reread is my strange reaction to Navani: one part of me sees her as she is described, another part of me just regards her as a stone-cold woman - in defiance of the facts. I haven't yet reached a definitive decision; I have a few ideas but will hold back until I'm through. What I can say already is that her relationship to Dalinar is part of what makes me dislike her. Navani as an independent person might work for me - Navani as Dalinar's love interest just - doesn't.

It is certainly always interesting to watch our different reactions....

 

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2 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

I'm going to shock you :): no we don't all agree.

For the long version, just check out this thread:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/54885-is-it-just-me-or-do-you-really-dont-like-navani/

One of my focuses on my current reread is my strange reaction to Navani: one part of me sees her as she is described, another part of me just regards her as a stone-cold woman - in defiance of the facts. I haven't yet reached a definitive decision; I have a few ideas but will hold back until I'm through. What I can say already is that her relationship to Dalinar is part of what makes me dislike her. Navani as an independent person might work for me - Navani as Dalinar's love interest just - doesn't.

It is certainly always interesting to watch our different reactions....

 

Whoops! I spoke too soon. XD Rookie mistake!!

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4 minutes ago, esamitch said:

Whoops! I spoke too soon. XD Rookie mistake!!

Not at all !!!

Trust me, I know the feeling of being too late here. Having discovered Brandon's books within the last year, having passively read this forum for months before joining, and now wondering all the time whether the things I think about have been discussed at full length sometime years before I turned up... it can be frustrating.

Two positive notes:

  1. We're not the only ones. Almost every day (I think) new people join, and face the same problem.
  2. On the whole, this community is very welcoming. One thing that convinced me to join was the friendly atmosphere. Of course, there are always exceptions, but they are exactly that: exceptions. My experience is that there is no need to be timid for lack of being 'up-to-date' about what was posted during the last two years.

    Forget about being a rookie, just post!
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I love Shallan. I need to say it in case someone who reads me thinks I do not like the character. She undeniably is within my personal top 3. She is a walking puzzle: at times I find her endearing and at other times I get annoyed by her lack of honesty which makes her appear as if she were a bad person. There are so many contradiction within Shallan I could spend pages trying to pluck one from the other. Truly, she is a fascinating character. Apart from my clear favorite, Adolin, she is the one character I have written the most stuff about. Of course, it doesn't compare as I have written the equivalent of one Stormlight Archive book worth of theories and posts on Adolin, but still, she come second.

So there.

My issues are thus when I put my "Shallan is a bad person" googles and I try to see how this would affect her relationship with Adolin. Shallan has been quite the go-getter, she is ambitious: she is ready to use all means at her disposal to ensure her goals are fulfill. I agree this is rather a cold-blooded way of reading Shallan (whom I love, I have to repeat here), but let's look at her track record.

All through WoK and WoR, her main goal has been saving her family. It is worthy goal, a honorable one even, nobody is going to fault her for it, but the problem arises when we look at the acts she is willing to perform in order to secure it.

1) She killed her father. Yes, it was in defense of her brother, but modern day law wouldn't bother with this distinction. It was first degree murder. Yes, it was understandable, but she could have avoided having to kill her father had she just been honest. Had she told the truth, these events would have been avoided, but she refused to face it.

2) She lied to Jasnah and she betrayed her when she stole her soulcaster. Again, it could have been avoided had she been honest earlier on. In her defense, she couldn't know Jasnah would be ready to help, She had no reasons to, so Shallan did the only thing she thought she could do and it costed her. She didn't want to steal the soulcaster.

3) She is playing with Adolin's feelings, clearly trying to make him fall in love with her, manipulating him into being her perfect play toy. It is obvious the only reasons she currently has for keeping up with the casual are to fulfill her goal. Marrying Adolin would solve her problem, the fact she may need to lie to Adolin to get there doesn't seem to bother her. She will hurt Adolin, of this I am convinced, he will be one her collateral damage victims, not intentionally, but because she can't face the truth, he'll end up hurting. Who knows maybe her last truth will happen because of Adolin.

4) By allying herself to Mraize, she is betraying the Kholins. She agreed to be a double-agent just so her family could be save. The thought they would safe anyway should she open-up to the Kholins, especially after the Oathgate event, does not even cross her mind. No. Of all possible solutions, the one Shallan chooses is the one bathed in lies and deception. The Ghostblood killed Jasnah, no way is Dalinar going to be fine with it.

So here. I agree this is a rather cold-blooded and downright negative way to view Shallan whom I adore BTW. However, if I flip the coin on this side of her character, this is what I come up with.

Therefore, can Shallan learn to be honest enough to develop a lasting relationship based on trusts and respect? Can she give Adolin what he deserves and needs? I came to realize most posts on shipping attack the relationship issues solely from Kaladin and Shallan's perspective. Who would be best for Shallan? And wouldn't be great if Kaladin had someone? How about Adolin? Why is it so few commentators stop to wonder about what he needs?

My thoughts are Adolin needs someone who'll be able to love him for who he is and who'll always make pass first. So far, each one of Adolin's relationships has been defined through what he could bring to the other person. I'd love for him to get someone who would think about what he needs, because others so seldom do it. Heck, even Dalinar has accepted a long time ago Adolin's life may be a price he'll have to pay to fulfill his dream of unification.

As for conversations keeping on popping back, as someone who's been here for 2 years, I sincerely do not care. If the newcomers want to have a discussion and if it happens to be one where I have something to say about it, then I am always available. Anyway, I love to repeat myself, so huh no problems here :ph34r:

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15 hours ago, maxal said:

I thought this was a very good post, but it made me wonder (well technically, I have been wondering about it for a while, but you have just echoed my thoughts) if Shallan would be the right match for Adolin. If Kaladin wouldn't be able to accept her powers are tied in to her ability to lie and deceive because of his conception of honor, what is to say of honest, straight-forward Adolin who genuinely wants to marry someone he loves and who would love him back? How could he ever be fine with marrying someone who lies to him about everything simply because she is incapable of facing the truth?

Could it be no one will end up with Shallan because she is too deceiving to make it work with anyone?

@maxal Well thank you, clearly, I think about this too much.  And, clearly, I'm in good company on this forum!

I love Adolin as a character.  I have liked him from the beginning.  He has flaws, of course, but ultimately he is as straight as they come; I particularly appreciate his undying loyalty, obedience and love for his father, Dalinar.  I think just the fact that he has no desire to be highprince if it means his father is going to step-down shows he has more love for his father and less desire for glory.  

So yeah, how does this square with Shallan?

12 hours ago, maxal said:

I love Shallan. I need to say it in case someone who reads me thinks I do not like the character. She undeniably is within my personal top 3. She is a walking puzzle: at times I find her endearing and at other times I get annoyed by her lack of honesty which makes her appear as if she were a bad person. There are so many contradiction within Shallan I could spend pages trying to pluck one from the other. Truly, she is a fascinating character. Apart from my clear favorite, Adolin, she is the one character I have written the most stuff about. Of course, it doesn't compare as I have written the equivalent of one Stormlight Archive book worth of theories and posts on Adolin, but still, she come second.

So there.

My issues are thus when I put my "Shallan is a bad person" googles and I try to see how this would affect her relationship with Adolin. Shallan has been quite the go-getter, she is ambitious: she is ready to use all means at her disposal to ensure her goals are fulfill. I agree this is rather a cold-blooded way of reading Shallan (whom I love, I have to repeat here), but let's look at her track record.

All through WoK and WoR, her main goal has been saving her family. It is worthy goal, a honorable one even, nobody is going to fault her for it, but the problem arises when we look at the acts she is willing to perform in order to secure it.

1) She killed her father. Yes, it was in defense of her brother, but modern day law wouldn't bother with this distinction. It was first degree murder. Yes, it was understandable, but she could have avoided having to kill her father had she just been honest. Had she told the truth, these events would have been avoided, but she refused to face it.

2) She lied to Jasnah and she betrayed her when she stole her soulcaster. Again, it could have been avoided had she been honest earlier on. In her defense, she couldn't know Jasnah would be ready to help, She had no reasons to, so Shallan did the only thing she thought she could do and it costed her. She didn't want to steal the soulcaster.

3) She is playing with Adolin's feelings, clearly trying to make him fall in love with her, manipulating him into being her perfect play toy. It is obvious the only reasons she currently has for keeping up with the casual are to fulfill her goal. Marrying Adolin would solve her problem, the fact she may need to lie to Adolin to get there doesn't seem to bother her. She will hurt Adolin, of this I am convinced, he will be one her collateral damage victims, not intentionally, but because she can't face the truth, he'll end up hurting. Who knows maybe her last truth will happen because of Adolin.

4) By allying herself to Mraize, she is betraying the Kholins. She agreed to be a double-agent just so her family could be save. The thought they would safe anyway should she open-up to the Kholins, especially after the Oathgate event, does not even cross her mind. No. Of all possible solutions, the one Shallan chooses is the one bathed in lies and deception. The Ghostblood killed Jasnah, no way is Dalinar going to be fine with it.

So here. I agree this is a rather cold-blooded and downright negative way to view Shallan whom I adore BTW. However, if I flip the coin on this side of her character, this is what I come up with.

Therefore, can Shallan learn to be honest enough to develop a lasting relationship based on trusts and respect? Can she give Adolin what he deserves and needs? I came to realize most posts on shipping attack the relationship issues solely from Kaladin and Shallan's perspective. Who would be best for Shallan? And wouldn't be great if Kaladin had someone? How about Adolin? Why is it so few commentators stop to wonder about what he needs?

My thoughts are Adolin needs someone who'll be able to love him for who he is and who'll always make pass first. So far, each one of Adolin's relationships has been defined through what he could bring to the other person. I'd love for him to get someone who would think about what he needs, because others so seldom do it. Heck, even Dalinar has accepted a long time ago Adolin's life may be a price he'll have to pay to fulfill his dream of unification.

As for conversations keeping on popping back, as someone who's been here for 2 years, I sincerely do not care. If the newcomers want to have a discussion and if it happens to be one where I have something to say about it, then I am always available. Anyway, I love to repeat myself, so huh no problems here :ph34r:

I also love Shallan, I think she's a very interesting, great character, and I still don't think we know where she's going.  I agree with pretty much all of this ^^.  I think she's weaving (haha, lightweaver) a complicated net of relationships and loyalties in the end of WoR.  So I have no idea what she will do with it in future books!  It makes me very sad to think that she will probably hurt Adolin since I think he really does like her from the start.

SO - what about the whole Adolin brutally murdering Sadeas thing?  I mean, Adolin, the straight-arrow, succumbing to the hatred, vengeance, anger he feels towards Sadeas in a moment of weakness to murder the highprince.  Don't get me wrong, I think I secretly was like: FINALLY SOMEONE KILLED THAT JERK AAUGH!!  But then, what will become of Adolin?  Now he's a murderer!  

Although we can argue (rightly) that Shallan murdered in self-defense and in defense of others, I still wonder if this could be an experience that could unite them.  She may be the only one who truly understands Adolin.  His probable feelings of horror and guilt will mirror her own - if she's true to herself.  Maybe she'll be there for him in this need?  

Not sure if that supports your point @maxal that Adolin deserves someone who will look to his needs... 

Edited by Tharatariel10
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Shallan did actually help out with the planning for the duel though I guess that could technically be in her interests as well. She also sent Pattern to help Renarin during the dual. Don't forget she's really big on her family -- I think that would transfer to the Kohlins if she married in.

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10 hours ago, Tharatariel10 said:

@maxal Well thank you, clearly, I think about this too much.  And, clearly, I'm in good company on this forum!

I love Adolin as a character.  I have liked him from the beginning.  He has flaws, of course, but ultimately he is as straight as they come; I particularly appreciate his undying loyalty, obedience and love for his father, Dalinar.  I think just the fact that he has no desire to be highprince if it means his father is going to step-down shows he has more love for his father and less desire for glory.  

So yeah, how does this square with Shallan?

I also love Shallan, I think she's a very interesting, great character, and I still don't think we know where she's going.  I agree with pretty much all of this ^^.  I think she's weaving (haha, lightweaver) a complicated net of relationships and loyalties in the end of WoR.  So I have no idea what she will do with it in future books!  It makes me very sad to think that she will probably hurt Adolin since I think he really does like her from the start.

SO - what about the whole Adolin brutally murdering Sadeas thing?  I mean, Adolin, the straight-arrow, succumbing to the hatred, vengeance, anger he feels towards Sadeas in a moment of weakness to murder the highprince.  Don't get me wrong, I think I secretly was like: FINALLY SOMEONE KILLED THAT JERK AAUGH!!  But then, what will become of Adolin?  Now he's a murderer!  

Although we can argue (rightly) that Shallan murdered in self-defense and in defense of others, I still wonder if this could be an experience that could unite them.  She may be the only one who truly understands Adolin.  His probable feelings of horror and guilt will mirror her own - if she's true to herself.  Maybe she'll be there for him in this need?  

Not sure if that supports your point @maxal that Adolin deserves someone who will look to his needs... 

I love Adolin for a never-ending list of reasons, but what got me into the character, initially, was realizing how miserable he was throughout his relationships despite being a naturally friendly and outgoing person. I cannot emphasize too much how I relate this his ordeal here and I have to admit he is the first character I stumble upon which voices such issues in such a sympathetic and endearing way. Characters such as Adolin rarely every draw sympathy from readers and works of fantasy tend to feature characters being on the opposite side of the spectrum. 

So all in all, Adolin became the expression of something deeply personal which is why I tend to rant endlessly over his foreseen lack of page time going into book 3. I have sincerely come to wonder if I'll be able to enjoy SA3 if it doesn't have enough Adolin's POV to satisfy my need to see his story being carried on.

As for the points you raise, Adolin is certainly not after personal glory. He takes pride into accomplishing tasks as demanded and as requested. Dalinar once referred to him as an "eager boy" as he remembered the child he once was. In other words, it isn't the ranking nor the success which fuels Adolin's sense of worth, but the feeling he has succeeded in fulfilling the expectations placed on him. His pride over going into the dueling spree isn't for the foreseen glory, but for the eagerness to help his father achieve his goal. Apart from the passage where he whines how he doesn't want to be a a Highprince, I'd also note the 4 on 1 duel where not one of his thoughts went towards the fact, shall he win, he'd accomplish his personal dream of being named the dueling champion. He wants this, he loves this, but it passes as a distant second next to helping Dalinar.

Where does this leaves us with Shallan? I'd say Adolin wants to please, badly. A lot of what he does is meant to please someone: he approaches his dates in the manner he thinks others expect of him. If he comes across as a bratty kid to some readers, it is because Adolin can act the part of the bratty kid whenever he is around his peers because this is what they expect of him. Adolin is fun. Adolin is nice, but Adolin is dumb. He's just a rich prince who loves silly clothes, a mouthful fop who can't bring it on despite being somewhat talented. The Shardblade? Bah. Beginners luck. Therefore, once I have exposed this, I am left wondering how will Adolin's desire to please and inability at developing meaningful relationships will play together with Shallan's careful approach where her personal goals perhaps stand higher than her fiance's well-being. I would also add Shallan who confounds care and love with imprisonment. Can she ever let Adolin in? And can Adolin finally speak his heart up? What will it take for these two to move from a working, but superficial relationship to a meaningful one?

As for Adolin murdering Sadeas, I'd say vengeance and hatred is one way to see it and I have come to believe it is a simplistic explanation for what truly happened. Adolin never seek personal vengeance from Sadeas, he seek to remove a threat to his family and his men. He also has a very hard time dealing with the injustice of having Sadeas walk unscathed after having abandoning allies onto the battlefield which is reminiscent of Kaladin's own issues with respect to Amaram. The difference would be while Kaladin dedicates almost his every thoughts towards extracting vengeance from Amaram, Adolin never once wastes thoughts on Sadeas. He reacts when gloated, when poked, when taunted, but not when he is calm and working up his daily tasks. While he is murdering Sadeas, not once does Adolin think of vengeance, all he thinks of is how uncontrollable his hate has gotten. In other words, Adolin snaps. His mind broke down. He experienced a "blood rage" moment, a "fight or flight response", name it as you wish, but Adolin right here, in this scene, collapsed under the pressure he has been under. And this is a sad event because when people mind snap, they typically destroy a wall or scream their heart out in tears: they don't usually kill other people. So huh though luck for him. What is going to happen to him has been the matter of several debates and must be the most discussed subject ever since the release of WoR.

It has been theorize Shallan may be capable of understanding Adolin as he killed for similar reasons, though with less physical provocation (but more stressed induced provocation which a lot of people tend to forget: Adolin is one stressed out kid). It has also been theorize Sadeas's murder will make her think of her father who gave way to anger: she may not understand how anger often is the vessel for vulnerability. When Adolin lashes is when he feels the most vulnerable. She may not get that as she was on the ending of this anger with her father who was vulnerable as well, so vulnerable he turned into a psycho. She may fear Adolin will walk the same path. It is truly hard to predict how she will react, but I do think her initial reaction will not be to applaud.

Oddly enough, I do think the one person the most apt to understand Adolin is Kaladin. 

 

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48 minutes ago, maxal said:

Oddly enough, I do think the one person the most apt to understand Adolin is Kaladin.

It might be odd if they did not hang out together so much (guard duty). More importantly, along with Dalinar, they fought Szeth together, and then of course there is the duel. Consider how long it took Adolin to cross the arena at the end. It's hard not to respect Adolin's dueling skills and tenacity. And Adolin stays in jail while Kaladin is after the duel. Obviously treated better, but it was still an inconvenience and not something many lighteyes would do, which counts the most. And Adolin doesn't like hunting or for that matter slaughtering the enemy -- recall how glad he was when Eshonai showed up near the end, and we know Kaladin has similar misgivings about the battlefield (why he wants his men on patrols for a year). Anyway, they share some ideals and have had opportunities for some male bonding. Adolin trusts Kaladin more than most by the end of WoR.  Anyway, if nothing else, it's even harder for me to imagine him letting Kaladin take the blame for Sadeas' murder. 

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1 hour ago, Argel said:

It might be odd if they did not hang out together so much (guard duty). More importantly, along with Dalinar, they fought Szeth together, and then of course there is the duel. Consider how long it took Adolin to cross the arena at the end. It's hard not to respect Adolin's dueling skills and tenacity. And Adolin stays in jail while Kaladin is after the duel. Obviously treated better, but it was still an inconvenience and not something many lighteyes would do, which counts the most. And Adolin doesn't like hunting or for that matter slaughtering the enemy -- recall how glad he was when Eshonai showed up near the end, and we know Kaladin has similar misgivings about the battlefield (why he wants his men on patrols for a year). Anyway, they share some ideals and have had opportunities for some male bonding. Adolin trusts Kaladin more than most by the end of WoR.  Anyway, if nothing else, it's even harder for me to imagine him letting Kaladin take the blame for Sadeas' murder. 

I think not many people realize Adolin staying up in prison on Kaladin's behalf was open-rebellion against a king's order. Had he not been a prince and the king's cousin, there would have been consequences for it. Apart from his personal discomfort, he also deprived Dalinar from his right-hand man which basically equates to Adolin going on strike to protest against Kaladin's unjust imprisonment.

I say, Adolin is probably walking on a thin line with the king right now... Elhokar hates being made for a fool and Adolin did just that. For a darkeye. Hard not to love Adolin here.

Adolin hating hunting is the first thing we learn about him back in WoK. He claims it was nothing more than a butchery and there was no honor is slaying a creature as humans didn't leave it a chance to win. He basically rolled his eyes to us as Dalinar lectured him, in what we understand was not the first time, on how glorious hunting was. The scene towards the end of WoR, where he stands in the middle of a blood bath, Thrill-less and he starts shaking, dropping his Blade was rather powerful. I love this imagery and yeah, he was glad for Eshonai to come forth and give him a real fight.

What I meant though is Kaladin knows how it feels to almost gives way to anger and hate, to commit the irreparable. He has been there, he has stand over the body of the man he blamed for all his hardships, a knife in his hand, ready to strike, well technically he didn't, I mean metaphorically, he was. Bottom line is Kaladin nearly killed his "Sadeas": he stopped, at the end, but Kaladin had the advantage of a Nahel bond. Sure, he had lost Syl at this point, but he has not lost all he has learned from her. 

I thus say Kaladin will sympathize for Adolin for having done what he nearly did. 

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13 hours ago, maxal said:

As for Adolin murdering Sadeas, I'd say vengeance and hatred is one way to see it and I have come to believe it is a simplistic explanation for what truly happened. Adolin never seek personal vengeance from Sadeas, he seek to remove a threat to his family and his men. He also has a very hard time dealing with the injustice of having Sadeas walk unscathed after having abandoning allies onto the battlefield which is reminiscent of Kaladin's own issues with respect to Amaram. The difference would be while Kaladin dedicates almost his every thoughts towards extracting vengeance from Amaram, Adolin never once wastes thoughts on Sadeas. He reacts when gloated, when poked, when taunted, but not when he is calm and working up his daily tasks. While he is murdering Sadeas, not once does Adolin think of vengeance, all he thinks of is how uncontrollable his hate has gotten. In other words, Adolin snaps. His mind broke down. He experienced a "blood rage" moment, a "fight or flight response", name it as you wish, but Adolin right here, in this scene, collapsed under the pressure he has been under. And this is a sad event because when people mind snap, they typically destroy a wall or scream their heart out in tears: they don't usually kill other people. So huh though luck for him. What is going to happen to him has been the matter of several debates and must be the most discussed subject ever since the release of WoR.

It has been theorize Shallan may be capable of understanding Adolin as he killed for similar reasons, though with less physical provocation (but more stressed induced provocation which a lot of people tend to forget: Adolin is one stressed out kid). It has also been theorize Sadeas's murder will make her think of her father who gave way to anger: she may not understand how anger often is the vessel for vulnerability. When Adolin lashes is when he feels the most vulnerable. She may not get that as she was on the ending of this anger with her father who was vulnerable as well, so vulnerable he turned into a psycho. She may fear Adolin will walk the same path. It is truly hard to predict how she will react, but I do think her initial reaction will not be to applaud.

Oddly enough, I do think the one person the most apt to understand Adolin is Kaladin. 

 

Great post!  Again, agreed that Adolin is awesome.  I loved him from the beginning.  I like what you point out about Adolin killing Sadeas. 

I hope that Adolin and Kaladin become closer in future books.  I feel like their brotherhood/friendship could be really awesome if given time; they can help each other in so many ways.  I like how things played out in WoR, but there's so much more that could be done.  I think the point you make that Kaladin may relate most to Adolin's actions is interesting.  We shall see...

On completely different note, but more to the topic at hand:

I was thinking about what @esamitch said about Kaladin not needing a love interest.  That his character, his journey doesn't seem to be lacking because he doesn't have a lady in his life (all theories of Shaladin aside here.)  My additional thought to support this is: could Kaladin really handle having a romantic love?  I mean his whole complex of saving and protecting others at all costs, and his sense of depression at any failure would be amplified tremendously if he had a love interest.  Goodness, if some recent recruit for Bridge Four dies on the battle field, he feels that he has failed that person.  He has regret, sorrow and all that that implies.  Now imagine he has a romantic interest in someone.  Good lord!  He'd go nuts!  He would have to protect her at all cost and any possibility of her being in danger and him not being able to help or protect her would eat away at him.  

Now consider Shallan.  The very hint that Adolin ever betrays of wanting to protect her and keep her safe and she freaks out.  She is paranoid of the idea that someone will lock her away, even if it is to protect her.  Now, arguably, Kaladin may relate to her desire for freedom - I think someone mentioned that in this thread.  But if he loved her, truly, his first instinct would be to protect her.  Soooo, I can foresee a terrible combination here.  Not only would Kaladin having a deep, love-interest be challenging, but that love-interest being Shallan would be even harder, and the likelihood of Shallan returning this love and accepting his need to protect her is even MORE of a stretch.

Just my thoughts...

 

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12 minutes ago, Tharatariel10 said:

Great post!  Again, agreed that Adolin is awesome.  I loved him from the beginning.  I like what you point out about Adolin killing Sadeas. 

I hope that Adolin and Kaladin become closer in future books.  I feel like their brotherhood/friendship could be really awesome if given time; they can help each other in so many ways.  I like how things played out in WoR, but there's so much more that could be done.  I think the point you make that Kaladin may relate most to Adolin's actions is interesting.  We shall see...

On completely different note, but more to the topic at hand:

I was thinking about what @esamitch said about Kaladin not needing a love interest.  That his character, his journey doesn't seem to be lacking because he doesn't have a lady in his life (all theories of Shaladin aside here.)  My additional thought to support this is: could Kaladin really handle having a romantic love?  I mean his whole complex of saving and protecting others at all costs, and his sense of depression at any failure would be amplified tremendously if he had a love interest.  Goodness, if some recent recruit for Bridge Four dies on the battle field, he feels that he has failed that person.  He has regret, sorrow and all that that implies.  Now imagine he has a romantic interest in someone.  Good lord!  He'd go nuts!  He would have to protect her at all cost and any possibility of her being in danger and him not being able to help or protect her would eat away at him.  

Now consider Shallan.  The very hint that Adolin ever betrays of wanting to protect her and keep her safe and she freaks out.  She is paranoid of the idea that someone will lock her away, even if it is to protect her.  Now, arguably, Kaladin may relate to her desire for freedom - I think someone mentioned that in this thread.  But if he loved her, truly, his first instinct would be to protect her.  Soooo, I can foresee a terrible combination here.  Not only would Kaladin having a deep, love-interest be challenging, but that love-interest being Shallan would be even harder, and the likelihood of Shallan returning this love and accepting his need to protect her is even MORE of a stretch.

Just my thoughts...

 

And once again, I find myself reading a post of yours and emphatically nodding the whole time :)

On both accounts: I loved to watch Kaladin's and Adolin's mutual trust deep down even while superficially destesting one another; I loved seeing them begin to drop those barriers and I want to see that awesome brotherhood / friendship you describe in the future.

And about any love interest for Kaladin: I imagine he would send the girl away because being with him is too dangerous. Harry Potter / Ginny style.

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On 7/26/2015 at 4:20 PM, Seloun said:

This has been gone over in some old posts, but one of the main arguments for Shallan/Kaladin is that they're essentially the living personifications of 'opposites attract'. Besides the obvious, they're from opposite orders (Lightweavers and Windrunners are opposite sides on the Radiant diagram, which is also reflected in the reaction between liespren and honorspren).

 

Another interesting observation is how they react to the weather:

 

 

versus

 

 

Kaladin is a morning person; Shallan is a night person:

 

 

Shallan is a heavy drinker (I've postulated that she might be a proto-alcoholic), Kaladin is not:

 

 

versus

 

 

Everyone else has had multiple drinks, while Kaladin might not have finished his one if not for Moash's business (also his disinclination to go out in the first place).

 

Somewhat more abstractly, Shallan is bright on the outside while hiding some serious darkness inside, while Kaladin is pretty scary outside with a very idealistic center. Shallan personifies the traditional female arts (probably the best artist in the world barring maybe Heralds, one of the best scholars, at least passable schemer) while Kaladin personifies the traditional male arts (possibly the greatest warrior on Roshar at the moment when factoring in Stormlight). There's probably many other details where we find them to be complements of each other. It's very much as sun-and-moon thing going on between them.

 

Finally,

 

 

 

 

Kaladin compares Shallan with Tien, arguably the single most person in Kaladin's life (the reason he joined the army, the reason for his breaking in the first place). This is a surprisingly apt comparison given that at the time of the observation, Kaladin doesn't know about the role Shallan had in cheering up her brothers. Incidentally, there was speculation that Tien might have been a proto-Lightweaver as well due to (bold mine):

 

 

As mentioned above, what Tien does to Kaladin is very close to what Shallan does with her brothers. In a sense, they've been practicing their complementary roles their whole lives.

 

That said, I fully expect that in Book 3, their relationship will stall due to distance and being out of communication with each other, compounded by Kaladin not being around to defend his role in Helaran's death (remember, all the bridgemen, Dalinar and Adolin at the minimum know that Amaram stole the Shardblade from Kaladin due to the confrontation near the end of WoR, which Shallan was conveniently not present for). But in a way the roadblocks are indicative of the route the story will take - if it wasn't moving in that direction, the barriers would pose no narrative purpose.

I thought it was quite obvious that they like each other and the only opposite part i noticed was that they were opposites in the radiant orders but damnation  this is so detailed.

 

On 7/26/2015 at 4:50 PM, cem said:

That's a pretty good post Seloun. It's pretty much what I think about their relationship too. Though I should point out Kaladin disliking rain, and Shallan and Tien liking it have nothing to do with their Nahel bonds (possible bond, in Tien's case). Kaladin suffers from seasonal affective disorder. Shallan and Tien simply like rain.

 

Edit: the WoB:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#8

Now this is quite interesting but i still think that Kaladin would pull a Dalinar to Navani  with Shallan which is give way to Adolin even when their attraction intensifies. Also it doesn't help that Kaladin killed shallan's brother

 

On 7/26/2015 at 6:04 AM, blademaster said:

I personally think Kaladin will find Tarah, and will instantly lose interest in Shallan. 

 

And Shallan obviously like Adolin waaay more. (read where she first meets him, and the wineshop scene, and look at the shardplate sketch)

I'm honestly more interested to see if what happens if Kaladin meets(brings ) Laral to Urithru if ever they meet again in book 3 assuming she is alive and Roshone is dead(hopefully) also doesn't matter if she has a child with the old scum.

Tarah to me seems like Kaladin's like past lover that there is nothing to comeback but rather just good memories while Laral is the "what if" of his life if his life didn't lead to Shattered plains.

Idk Shallan pretty much ignored Adolin's presence in thought of Kaladin (that part where she was completely lost in thought comparing them and Adolin was saying something) but yeah as of now she likes Adolin more. And i doubt Kaladin would actually do rust given the opportunity nor would Shallan pick him over Adolin even if she will come to love Kaladin later on because simply both will be bound by duty (Kaladin with the Honor thing and not stealing his boss girl , also shallan being already arranged and deeply involved with Adolin)

Edited by goody153
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