SPOILERS! ---Does Kaladin like Shallan, and Vice Versa?---

[ChullRider]

A while ago, I had a disagreement with my friends about whether or not Kaladin liked Shallan and vice versa. What do you think?

Edited July 25, 2015 by ChullRider

[Kobold King]

Do we mean "like"...

 

 

... or "like like"?

[ChullRider]

Do we mean "like"...

 

 

... or "like like"?

"Like like" 

Edited July 25, 2015 by ChullRider

[Kipper]

At the current time, I think that Kaladin has the potential to like Shallan, but is too hung up on other things to really open up to those feelings...so I put ??? for him.

I think Shallan doesn't dislike Kaladin, necessarily, but neither does she like like him. Adolin. Adolin. Aaaaaaadolin. So she's a no.

[TCshard]

Truthfully I don't think adolin will live through the series, then again BS's reluctance to kill off important characters might change that. I would also like to see what Kaladin does in SA3 since he has arrived at hearthstone, I got a feeling there might be some awkwardness if laral is still alive.

[6000j]

I personally believe that Kaladin has a crush on Shallan that he doesn't know about, and she likes him.

[Seloun]

 

He saw it in her eyes. The anguish , the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.

 

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 849). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

The next two quotes happen almost at the same time, from opposite perspectives:

 

 

She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile. She said something clever; Kaladin could almost hear the words. He waited, hoping that she’d look toward him, meet his eyes across the short distance.

 

She didn’t. She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool. A part of him wanted to hate Adolin for holding her attention, but he found that he couldn’t. The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit.

 

Perhaps Kaladin could hate that.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 929). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

 

That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind , noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or . . . or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.

Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

 

He was. Like the wind and rocks were.

 

Shallan completely missed what Adolin said next. She blushed. “What was that?”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 936). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

It's pretty hard to argue that there's nothing there.

 

In fact it's pretty clear from their second meeting (the insult-fest as Shallan is trying to get an audience with Dalinar) where this is going; it's classic tsundere. There is so much evidence that it seems almost deliberately misleading.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Seloun

[maxal]

I think it is way too early to call it "like" yet, whatever it is that passed between them. An interest, surely, but one that may or may not span into romantic desire.

 

Adolin however, is definitely crushing on Shallan, no questions here. Shallan definitely likes (like not love, two different things) Adolin, she cares for him, but I would not call it love, not yet.

 

As for a main character dying (which is totally unnecessary if you ask me), everyone keeps on saying it has to be Adolin... Wild guess, why not Kaladin? This is sure to draw some emotional response from the reader... Or Shallan? Let's kill Shallan then nobody gets to be with her. FYI, I am just joking here. I absolutely hate the idea of main characters dying as I sincerely believe they are all more interesting alive then dead. If Brandon wants to kill someone, he's got a hordes of important secondary characters that can die.

[vicsmith1412]

Honestly, my opinion is that it's definitely more complex than that. Seloun is right that there's definitely a shown interest there, but attraction does not necessarily equal like or the possibility of a relationship. Kaladin is much more interested in his own problems at the moment, so he's unlikely to try to get between the already formed couple when he likes both of them. Shallan also has her own problems and does like Adolin as well. I think there is definitely a possibility there, but that it's a full maybe that it's viable for something more. We just won't know until we see how the three of them interact in the next book.

And personally, I like Adolin and Shallan together. Shallan and Kaladin becoming besties and depending on each other and sharing stuff is much more attractive than yet another love triangle.

[AerionBFII]

I think Kal is attracted to Shallan but she likes him just not as much as Adolin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: atrocious grammar. 

Edited July 25, 2015 by WEZ313

[6000j]

The next two quotes happen almost at the same time, from opposite perspectives:

 

 

 

It's pretty hard to argue that there's nothing there.

 

In fact it's pretty clear from their second meeting (the insult-fest as Shallan is trying to get an audience with Dalinar) where this is going; it's classic tsundere. There is so much evidence that it seems almost deliberately misleading.

This supports the Theory a lot.

[blad3mast3r]

I personally think Kaladin will find Tarah, and will instantly lose interest in Shallan. 

 

And Shallan obviously like Adolin waaay more. (read where she first meets him, and the wineshop scene, and look at the shardplate sketch)

[Seloun]

This has been gone over in some old posts, but one of the main arguments for Shallan/Kaladin is that they're essentially the living personifications of 'opposites attract'. Besides the obvious, they're from opposite orders (Lightweavers and Windrunners are opposite sides on the Radiant diagram, which is also reflected in the reaction between liespren and honorspren).

 

Another interesting observation is how they react to the weather:

 

 

The Weeping began.

 

A steady stream of rain. Kaladin could hear it inside his room, like a whisper in the background . Weak, miserable rain, without the fury and passion of a true highstorm.

 

...

The Weeping was a bad time for him. Days spent trapped indoors. A perpetual gloom in the sky that seemed to affect him more than it did others, leaving him lethargic and uncaring.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 943). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
 

 

versus

 

 

Four days into the Weeping, and she still enjoyed the weather. Why did the soft sound of gentle rain make her feel more imaginative? Around her, creationspren slowly vanished, most having taken the shapes of things about the camp. Swords that sheathed and unsheathed repeatedly, tiny tents that untied and blew in unseen wind.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 945). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Kaladin is a morning person; Shallan is a night person:

 

 

It was still dark when Kaladin nudged her awake with the butt of his spear. Shallan groaned, rolling over on the chasm floor, and drowsily tried to put her pillow over her head.

 

Which, of course, spilled dried chull meat onto her. Kaladin chuckled.

 

...

 

He smirked, taking a piece of dried chull meat from her shoulder and popping it in his mouth . “In my home town growing up, bath day was once a week. I think even the local lighteyes would have found it strange that everyone out here, even the common soldiers, finds a bath more frequently.”

 

How dare he be this chipper in the morning? Or, rather, the “morning.” She threw another piece of chull meat at him when he wasn’t looking. The storming man caught it.

 

I hate him.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 833-834). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Shallan is a heavy drinker (I've postulated that she might be a proto-alcoholic), Kaladin is not:

 

 

It worked. The illusion stayed. “Ha!” Shallan said, getting herself a cup of wine. She walked back and eased onto the bed —flopping down with a cup of red wine did not seem prudent— and looked over the side at the floor, where Pattern sat beneath Veil. He was visible because of the Stormlight.

 

I’ll need to take that into account, Shallan thought. Build illusions so that he can hide in them.

 

“It worked?” Pattern said. “How did you know it would work?”

 

“I didn’t.” Shallan took a sip of wine. “I guessed.”

 

She drank another sip as Pattern hummed. Jasnah would not have approved. Scholarship requires a sharp mind and alert senses. These do not mix with alcohol. Shallan drank the rest of the wine in a gulp.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 739-740). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

versus

 

 

Kaladin finally took a sip of his own drink. Lavis ale, sudsy, faintly sweet. It reminded him of home, though he’d only started drinking it once in the army.

...

 

After about an hour of conversation , Kaladin taking part only sporadically, Moash nudged him in the side. “You ready?” he whispered. 

...

 

Kaladin looked down into his mug of yellow-brown liquid. Finally, he downed the rest and stood up. He needed to know who these men were. His duty demanded it.

Moash excused them, saying he’d noticed an old friend he wanted to introduce to Kaladin. Rock , looking not the least bit drunk, laughed and waved them on . He was on his . . . sixth drink? Seventh? Lopen was already tipsy after his third. Sigzil had only barely finished his second, and didn’t seem inclined to continue.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 542). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
 

 

Everyone else has had multiple drinks, while Kaladin might not have finished his one if not for Moash's business (also his disinclination to go out in the first place).

 

Somewhat more abstractly, Shallan is bright on the outside while hiding some serious darkness inside, while Kaladin is pretty scary outside with a very idealistic center. Shallan personifies the traditional female arts (probably the best artist in the world barring maybe Heralds, one of the best scholars, at least passable schemer) while Kaladin personifies the traditional male arts (possibly the greatest warrior on Roshar at the moment when factoring in Stormlight). There's probably many other details where we find them to be complements of each other. It's very much as sun-and-moon thing going on between them.

 

Finally,

 

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

...

 

She started down the chasm. He stood behind, feeling drained. And oddly brightened.

 

He should feel like a fool. He’d done it again— he’d been telling her how easy her life was, while she’d had that hiding inside of her all along. This time, though, he didn’t feel like an idiot. He felt like he understood. Something. He didn’t know what. The chasm just seemed a little brighter.

 

Tien always did that to me . . . he thought. Even on the darkest day.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 850). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Kaladin compares Shallan with Tien, arguably the single most person in Kaladin's life (the reason he joined the army, the reason for his breaking in the first place). This is a surprisingly apt comparison given that at the time of the observation, Kaladin doesn't know about the role Shallan had in cheering up her brothers. Incidentally, there was speculation that Tien might have been a proto-Lightweaver as well due to (bold mine):

 

 

Kaladin’s brother climbed up onto the roof and walked up beside him, then lay down, staring upward. Someone else might have tried to cheer Kaladin up, and they would have failed. But somehow Tien knew the right thing to do. For the moment, that was keeping silent.

 

“You like the rain, don’t you?” Kaladin finally asked him.

 

“Yeah,” Tien said. Of course, Tien liked pretty much everything.

 

... (weather)

 

Kaladin sat up as Tien fished something out of his pocket. It was a small wooden horse, intricately carved.

 

“Don’t worry about the water,” Tien said, handing it over. “I sealed it already.”

 

“Tien,” Kaladin said, amazed. “This is beautiful.” The details were amazing—the eyes, the hooves, the lines in the tail. It looked just like the majestic animals that pulled Roshone’s carriage. “Did you show this to Ral?”

 

... (artist)

 

Kaladin looked at his brother, with his innocent face and affable nature. He hadn’t lost either, though he was now into his teenage years. How is it you can always smile? Kaladin thought. It’s dreadful outside, your master treats you like crem, and your family is slowly being strangled by the citylord. And yet you smile. How, Tien?

 

And why is it that you make me want to smile too?

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 617). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
 

 

As mentioned above, what Tien does to Kaladin is very close to what Shallan does with her brothers. In a sense, they've been practicing their complementary roles their whole lives.

 

That said, I fully expect that in Book 3, their relationship will stall due to distance and being out of communication with each other, compounded by Kaladin not being around to defend his role in Helaran's death (remember, all the bridgemen, Dalinar and Adolin at the minimum know that Amaram stole the Shardblade from Kaladin due to the confrontation near the end of WoR, which Shallan was conveniently not present for). But in a way the roadblocks are indicative of the route the story will take - if it wasn't moving in that direction, the barriers would pose no narrative purpose.

[cem]

That's a pretty good post Seloun. It's pretty much what I think about their relationship too. Though I should point out Kaladin disliking rain, and Shallan and Tien liking it have nothing to do with their Nahel bonds (possible bond, in Tien's case). Kaladin suffers from seasonal affective disorder. Shallan and Tien simply like rain.

 

Edit: the WoB:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#8

QUESTION ()

The weepings--Shallan and Kaladin react very differently to them.

BRANDON SANDERSON

They do.

 

QUESTION

It just seems to me that the Weepings feel very close to Cultivation.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

The primary thing you're noticing -- and I'm not going to say there's not any magical influence -- but the primary thing you're noticing is that Kaladin has season affective disorder and Shallan likes the rain. That's the primary thing you're noticing. I like the rain--my wife hates it. My wife gets depressed when it rains and I love when it rains.

Edited July 26, 2015 by cem

[Patrick Star]

Yes, Shallan likes Kaladin.  Yes, Kaladin likes Shallan.

 

However, Shallan does not like Kaladin as much as she likes Adolin, and Kaladin would never steal Adolin's girl.  Or hook up with a lighteyes

[TCshard]

I always thought kaladin didn't like the weeping because of the lack of storm light. He has unknowingly consumed storm light most of his life.

[Emerald101]

That's a pretty good post Seloun. It's pretty much what I think about their relationship too. Though I should point out Kaladin disliking rain, and Shallan and Tien liking it have nothing to do with their Nahel bonds (possible bond, in Tien's case). Kaladin suffers from seasonal affective disorder. Shallan and Tien simply like rain.

 

Edit: the WoB:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#8

Brandon just compared Shallan & Kaladin to Himself and his Wife! Relationship confirmed!

 

I always thought kaladin didn't like the weeping because of the lack of storm light. He has unknowingly consumed storm light most of his life.

I think most is a bit of a stretch here. Kaladin is twenty by the end of WoR. He was fifteen when he joined Amaram's army, and Syl herself said that it was his actions with his spearman's squad that attracted her. Even if he sucked in stormlight the moment he joined the army - which I doubt is possible considering the time-consuming nature of the Nahel bond - that still wouldn't be most of his life.

[cem]

I think most is a bit of a stretch here. Kaladin is twenty by the end of WoR. He was fifteen when he joined Amaram's army, and Syl herself said that it was his actions with his spearman's squad that attracted her. Even if he sucked in stormlight the moment he joined the army - which I doubt is possible considering the time-consuming nature of the Nahel bond - that still wouldn't be most of his life.

Kaladin's Stormlight addiction is something new, but their bond still starts much earlier than Kaladin's army days. Remember that unlike Pattern, Wyndle, and possibly Ivory, Syl didn't come to the Physical Realm through a group effort with a predetermined proto-Radiant. Her memory was pretty spotty when she said that. She also says she was with Kaladin during his childhood (the "yes and no" thing) in WoR. We also saw Kaladin using Windrunner abilities as early as 12 years old when he was fighting that older kid with quarterstaffs. So they at least had a rudimentary Nahel bond at that point. I would argue what initially attracted Syl was Kaladin's desire to heal people. Which is more in line with how I view honorspren. Syl hates killing, but sees it as a necessary evil at times.

[JasonStormweaver]

Kaladin has fallen bad for Shallan after the both fell into the Chasm while Shallan is more of a maybe. I think she does find him attractive and if the two courted more it would eventually happen but right now she like Adolin more.

[6000j]

Kaladin has fallen bad for Shallan after the both fell into the Chasm while Shallan is more of a maybe. I think she does find him attractive and if the two courted more it would eventually happen but right now she like Adolin more.

I certainly agree.

Also, hello to the forums.

[Volleydeck]

As far as their feelings towards each other are concerned I feel that they currently do like each other to varying degrees but I don't feel that it has blossomed to anything substantial. Shallan broke the ice around Kaladins boy/girl feelings so I think he's in a more puppy love faze, where Shallan feels that Kaladin is intriguing. I honestly don't believe that Sanderson is going to be so obvious in his relationship matching and thus I see these two ending in a type of Rand/Egwene affair (WoT). I will say if these two do end up getting together I'd have no problem with the romance, it just feels to easy to pick out.

A thought that has been bugging me, however, is what about the prospect of Jasnah and Kaladin as a potential match? That could be an interesting romance.

[maxal]

As far as their feelings towards each other are concerned I feel that they currently do like each other to varying degrees but I don't feel that it has blossomed to anything substantial. Shallan broke the ice around Kaladins boy/girl feelings so I think he's in a more puppy love faze, where Shallan feels that Kaladin is intriguing. I honestly don't believe that Sanderson is going to be so obvious in his relationship matching and thus I see these two ending in a type of Rand/Egwene affair (WoT). I will say if these two do end up getting together I'd have no problem with the romance, it just feels to easy to pick out.

A thought that has been bugging me, however, is what about the prospect of Jasnah and Kaladin as a potential match? That could be an interesting romance.

 

About Kaladin and Jasnah... Well... I recall someone asked Brandon if he was going to broached Jasnah's sexual orientation as the fact she seems uninterested in romance has made many readers believe she may be homosexual. He has answered he did not plan to broach the subject unless it becomes relevant to the main story arc. In other words, he more or less confirmed he did not currently planned to involved Jasnah into any romantic ship whatsoever and it her orientation, whatever it may be, ever becomes relevant to the story, he'll talk about it, but he won't write about it simply to quell the fandom's inquisition.

 

Based on this, I would think a Kaladin/Jasnah or a Jasnah/anyone romance is highly unlikely.

 

For those who are interested, Tor.com are currently doing the review of THE data chapter of Shallan/Adolin. Interesting review and spot on (in my opinion) analysis of what goes on there. It may fuel some discussion. Have fun.

[The Honor Spren]

This has been gone over in some old posts, but one of the main arguments for Shallan/Kaladin is that they're essentially the living personifications of 'opposites attract'. Besides the obvious, they're from opposite orders (Lightweavers and Windrunners are opposite sides on the Radiant diagram, which is also reflected in the reaction between liespren and honorspren).

 

Another interesting observation is how they react to the weather:

 

 

versus

 

 

Kaladin is a morning person; Shallan is a night person:

 

 

Shallan is a heavy drinker (I've postulated that she might be a proto-alcoholic), Kaladin is not:

 

 

versus

 

 

Everyone else has had multiple drinks, while Kaladin might not have finished his one if not for Moash's business (also his disinclination to go out in the first place).

 

Somewhat more abstractly, Shallan is bright on the outside while hiding some serious darkness inside, while Kaladin is pretty scary outside with a very idealistic center. Shallan personifies the traditional female arts (probably the best artist in the world barring maybe Heralds, one of the best scholars, at least passable schemer) while Kaladin personifies the traditional male arts (possibly the greatest warrior on Roshar at the moment when factoring in Stormlight). There's probably many other details where we find them to be complements of each other. It's very much as sun-and-moon thing going on between them.

 

Finally,

 

 

Kaladin compares Shallan with Tien, arguably the single most person in Kaladin's life (the reason he joined the army, the reason for his breaking in the first place). This is a surprisingly apt comparison given that at the time of the observation, Kaladin doesn't know about the role Shallan had in cheering up her brothers. Incidentally, there was speculation that Tien might have been a proto-Lightweaver as well due to (bold mine):

 

 

As mentioned above, what Tien does to Kaladin is very close to what Shallan does with her brothers. In a sense, they've been practicing their complementary roles their whole lives.

 

That said, I fully expect that in Book 3, their relationship will stall due to distance and being out of communication with each other, compounded by Kaladin not being around to defend his role in Helaran's death (remember, all the bridgemen, Dalinar and Adolin at the minimum know that Amaram stole the Shardblade from Kaladin due to the confrontation near the end of WoR, which Shallan was conveniently not present for). But in a way the roadblocks are indicative of the route the story will take - if it wasn't moving in that direction, the barriers would pose no narrative purpose.

  

Yes, Shallan likes Kaladin.  Yes, Kaladin likes Shallan.

However, Shallan does not like Kaladin as much as she likes Adolin, and Kaladin would never steal Adolin's girl.  Or hook up with a lighteyes

I pretty much agree with Seloun and Patrick Star.

They do like each other and they seem perfect for each other. But Shallan likes Adolin more, and there's also the whole Kaladin-Killing-Helaren thing.

Patrick, I'm not so sure that the light eye discrimination will be a thing anymore. Kaladin is rapidly becoming one of them.

[maxal]

   I pretty much agree with Seloun and Patrick Star.

They do like each other and they seem perfect for each other. But Shallan likes Adolin more, and there's also the whole Kaladin-Killing-Helaren thing.

Patrick, I'm not so sure that the light eye discrimination will be a thing anymore. Kaladin is rapidly becoming one of them.

 

Becoming one of them does not mean he appreciates them more. 

[The Honor Spren]

I didn't mean that. But I kind of did? But. . . Oh.

It's pretty obvious I'm a knight awkward right now, isn't it?