The Arrowverse

[Dunkum]

normally Arrow is lower on my priority lists, but all the commercials have me thinking that there will be a lot of Darhk in this episode, and that is too good to pass up.

 

my current zoom theory is extremely convoluted and relies on Jay being a twin and there being at least 3 people with that face across the 2 earths we have seen so far.  basically mask guy is real jay, jay we know is faking it (jay's twin?) and zoom is the third (current guess: earth 1 hunter zolomon and/or jay garrick, but I'm not really sure when zoom first showed up on earth 2)

 

 

wild guesses aside, king shark was just very very entertaining.  it is a character that would only work on the Flash (among the berlanti shows, anyway) and I am really glad they did it

[Curiosity]

Flash -King Shark

 

Enjoyed the fact that ARGUS still has its hands in a lot of things. King Shark was pretty impressive as well. Future episode pitch: King Shark v. Gorilla Grodd...

 

Zoom Possibilities: 

• Zolomon   (Not my favorite idea. We don't know who Zolomon is.)
• Jay from another Earth   (Ok idea, doesn't make as much sense if it is difficult to move between Earths.)
• Jay from another timeline  (This is my pet theory, since we already have foreshadowing of Jay's desire for speed (Velocity-6 etc., and the "This complicates things" line makes perfect sense if he just killed past!Jay. )

[Blaze1616]

All right, so with last night's episode of Legends, there was a major reveal that I am truly puzzled on. No, it's not that ending:

 

Season 1 Flash spoilers, as well as Legends spoilers:

In season 1 of Flash, we get introduced to the character Gideon, who is Eobard's AI. When Legends began, the AI aboard the ship being used was also named Gideon. At this point I made the assumption that Gideon was the name for all AI from the future, like Siri is the name for all Apple AI in today's world.

 

But this episode threw us a fastball; the AI of the new ship was named Gilbert (I think it was Gilbert, I don't fully remember anything other than it being a G name). I was initially shocked, but when the voice was male, my response was: Alright, so both are G names, so knowing that the AI can sound like either gender, I assume that Gilbert is the male counterpart to Gideon.

 

But then the episode threw a curveball! As if Gilbert wasn't enough, a third ship was shown to have an AI named Gary! So now we've got two G names for the male voice, and 1 G name for the female. This brings up multiple possibilities:

 

1) All AI have G names.

2) Not all AI have G names, meaning that Eobard's and Rip's AIs having the same name is suspect.

 

Which it is, I don't know. But it sure is curious.

[Left]

All right, so with last night's episode of Legends, there was a major reveal that I am truly puzzled on. No, it's not that ending:

Season 1 Flash spoilers, as well as Legends spoilers:

In season 1 of Flash, we get introduced to the character Gideon, who is Eobard's AI. When Legends began, the AI aboard the ship being used was also named Gideon. At this point I made the assumption that Gideon was the name for all AI from the future, like Siri is the name for all Apple AI in today's world.

But this episode threw us a fastball; the AI of the new ship was named Gilbert (I think it was Gilbert, I don't fully remember anything other than it being a G name). I was initially shocked, but when the voice was male, my response was: Alright, so both are G names, so knowing that the AI can sound like either gender, I assume that Gilbert is the male counterpart to Gideon.

But then the episode threw a curveball! As if Gilbert wasn't enough, a third ship was shown to have an AI named Gary! So now we've got two G names for the male voice, and 1 G name for the female. This brings up multiple possibilities:

1) All AI have G names.

2) Not all AI have G names, meaning that Eobard's and Rip's AIs having the same name is suspect.

Which it is, I don't know. But it sure is curious.

Huh...I mean I noticed that too, but didn't think about it that much. It is interesting though.

BY GRABTHARS HAMMER, that ending Poor Snart....

I'm pretty sure Mick isn't dead, but man, their part of the episode was insanely good.

Ray....why must you be so painful to watch? I liked you...now you're just being an awkward Nerd.

Stein made me start laughing really hard, it was just so well acted. Lot of fun.

Flashbacks were probably the weakest I've seen in any of the DC shows. That was bad. And modern Rip went down really quickly after the opening. I have never seen a leader as inept as him.

[Dunkum]

Huh...I mean I noticed that too, but didn't think about it that much. It is interesting though.

BY GRABTHARS HAMMER, that ending Poor Snart....

I'm pretty sure Mick isn't dead, but man, their part of the episode was insanely good.

Ray....why must you be so painful to watch? I liked you...now you're just being an awkward Nerd.

Stein made me start laughing really hard, it was just so well acted. Lot of fun.

Flashbacks were probably the weakest I've seen in any of the DC shows. That was bad. And modern Rip went down really quickly after the opening. I have never seen a leader as inept as him.

yea, I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the AI stuff, but i did think it was kind of curious.

 

man, there were some serious "Old Yeller" vibes to that ending.  no body, so 100% that mick isn't dead, but he might be frozen (captain cold's discount cryogenics: come for the puns, stay forever because we froze you).  that said, he was one of the stronger team members in terms of amusement value (in my rankings snart and canary are at the top, about tied, then stein and rory, also pretty close to tied, then ray then rip who is slowly edging off the positive list.  the others I'm either neutral towards or actively dislike) so I hope we don't lose him for too long.

I actually think awkward nerd Ray is the best Ray.  him making star trek references from the captain's chair was way better than whatever romance thing they are trying to pull off (and by the way, way to turn 180 degreees from last week's episode on that, show).

 

space ranger stein was great, and up there with old stein meets young stein in terms of just pure fun.  they clearly need to give victor garber more fun things to do.

 

next week is 50's themed.  could be fun.

[Quiver]

Arrow and Flash came back from their hiatus in the UK this week, so I'll be starting on those. Legends of Tomorrow also started, so I'll be getting it watched too

 

(Actually, I saw the first five minutes of it. Is it just me, or did anyone else think of Ace Rimmer when people started calling Arthur Darville 'captain'...?)

 

...But I have to admit, I'm a little apprehensive. I've been avoiding spoilers as best I can (which hasn't been easy)... but Tor seems to be reviewing each episode as it comes out. I'm just judging based on the "before the spoiler" cut, but I get the impression that they haven't been enjoying the show.

 

So, spoiler free... what are you guy's impressions of it? I admit, I have been really excited for Legends, so the idea that it might not be good is... rather disheartening.

(Of course, everyone has different opinions anyway, and I fail to see how spending 13 episodes with Sara Lance could be anything other than awesome. So.)

[Left]

I think that Legends might have the potential to be my favorite Arrowverse show, which is saying quite a bit really. It's generally been more fun than Flash lately, and I feel like it moves around better than Arrow.

That being said, Legends is hovering right in between being really good, and being a sloppy mess. If they can keep the characters developing, avoid plot holes, and have the various loose threads resolve themselves by the end of the season, then it's going to be a kick chull show.

[Quiver]

And I just finished the first episode of post-hiatus Flash. As in literally, five minutes ago. I'll revise my opinion once I've thought about it for a bit, but my gut reaction...?

Eh. It was okay.

I don't know what I was expecting, really. Unlike season one, this years mid-season didn't have an explosive cliffhanger to pick up on...or, more accurately, it's dramatic cliffhangers of Wally's introduction and Harry working for Zoom are slow burn stories which need to play out over the course of this season. There wasn't going to be a dramatic pay-off to them to kickstart the episode.

And that's fine, because really, the slowburn is more effective. But it left this feeling like just another episode, rather the triumphant return after a three month break.

And besides that, I'm annoyed at how they've resolved/introduced other stuff. Patty being written out feels...unearned? Unnecessary? Im not sure, but it bothers me. Maybe after so thoroughly destroying the Arrow/Canary ships the producers feel committed to Barry and Iris, but if so, they sunk Barry/Patty in a terriblw way to do it.

Worse since things were set up for a perfect breakup. Iris said she wished Barry had told her he was the Flash...so have Barry tell Patty. Have Patty reject him because of him. You make Iris look good, and it doesn't make the breakup seem the result of Patty playing victim again.

Jay's illness is also strangely introduced. My guess is that it's related to the Velocity serum he alluded to taking back on Earth-2, but in that case I thought it would have come up. I haven't seen much sign of Jay having a "sickness"...though one of my big complaints this season is that, aside from the glorious Flash of Two Worlds homage Jay has been extremely under utilised.

Anyway, more thoughts once I analyse the show more thoeoughly!

[Quiver]

And post-hiatus Arrow.

So, as with Flash, this was an okay episode. However, I think that actually bothers me more, because really, this could have been a great episode.

And I think the main reason it wasn't was because it didn't focus exclusively on Oliver.

There's a refrain throughout the episode. Dig warns him not to lose his humanity; Laurel objects to his torture; Quentin asks if he's dropping bodies again. We're reminded of what Oliver was like back in season one, not only in how he acts, but how he treats the one's around him.

Oliver reacts to Felicity's injuries by throwing himself into his work...and throwing himself in alone, the way he was when the series began. He hunts the ghosts singlehandedly, demands the others "give [him] the room," and makes unilateral decisions like freeing Mason without consulting the others. It's all stuff that fits with the idea of him regressing to the monster he was, the Hood rather than the Green Arrow.

(Not to mention wholey consistent with his character. Oliver has always ran away when people close to him die. He ran away after Tommy died, he lied about Shado, he got as far away from Tatsu and Maseo after Akio died, and he brooded privately post-Moira. This is really the first time Oliver has had someone he can target for his tragedies, so it's no surprise that he does it).

But rather than focus on Ollie Alone, we keep jumping to other characters. Ordinarily, that's not a bad thing, but here, I think it dilutes the gut punch story this could have been, which is a shame.

I'm not even criticising the other stories. I think there is something interesting with Lonnie, both in his relationship to Thea and in examining the intersection of his philosophy with Darhk and Oliver's. Laurel as the voice of reason in an increasingly unstable group? That's a great direction for the character. Andy actually get's a personality.

Plus, Felicity. I am torn between the "Felicity is Barbara Gordon" connection, and really liking the idea of a show where the main character's love interest is disabled. It's not exactly something that's overflowing with representation.

But, I don't know if that stuff should have been in this episode. Because what we're left with is an episode that warns us that Oliver is sliding back to his old ways, but which doesn't really focus on him and his actions as much as it should.

Which is a shame, because showing Oliver losing it would have really strengthened the comparison with Darhk at the end. There's also the slight comparison being made between Felicity and Darhk's wife at the end, with how they both are supporting their respective partners, but... I don't feel it quite hits as hard as it should.

(Of course, Darhk spent the last episode before the hiatus putting people in a gas chamber. When I say "comparison", bare in mind I'm talking broad strokes because seriously, I hate Darhk as a villain right now, but that would be an essay all of it's own).

So...yeah. An episode that, sadly, doesn't have quite the bite to it that it should have. Shame.

...oh. And the flash forward.

Ive been holding onto a theory from the start of the season. This flashforward, in my mind, only makes it more believable.

I don't know who the body in the grace is, but I am convinced that the " he" in question is Diggle. After everything that's happened, why be coy with pronouns? Just say the name of the man you want Oliver to kill.

Clearly, it's being set up as a twist. I don't know how, but that's my suspicion. Somehow -for some reason- Dig is gonna end up teaming up with Andy, someone will die. Next season, brother vs brother, Oliver against Diggle.

...but that still doesn't answer the question of who is in the grave, so...yeah.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Quiver

[Dunkum]

I think that Legends might have the potential to be my favorite Arrowverse show, which is saying quite a bit really. It's generally been more fun than Flash lately, and I feel like it moves around better than Arrow.

That being said, Legends is hovering right in between being really good, and being a sloppy mess. If they can keep the characters developing, avoid plot holes, and have the various loose threads resolve themselves by the end of the season, then it's going to be a kick chull show.

I'll second this.  basically every scene with Sara Lance, Captain Cold or Heatwave are gold, and Martin Stein carries a lot of his material too.  but some of the things they are doing are just frustrating.  it doesn't help that Their Vandal Savage is just not very intimidating, especially for the main villain of the show.  I don't know if it is the writers, the actor, the director or what, but something is just off about him.  having Arrow's Damien Darhk there to compare against is not doing him any favors either, since Neil Mcdonough is hitting that out of the park with every scene.

[Blaze1616]

On Legends, I'm enjoying it, and I tend to laugh out loud mutliple times each episode, but the show is only this good because it's using characters which it assumes the viewer is already familiar with. It's like a second book, because the lack of introductions allows the story and character interactions to begin immediately. This is also why the first episode is by far my least favorite, because they shoe horned a very basic intro for every character. But when Sara talks about her death experience, it's something that the show doesn't bother to retell, because it assumes you've seen Arrow. 

 

So if the show were to have introduced 8 new heroes along with having this script, it would not be good at all. The fact that it doesn't have to do so makes it good. Though with that said, my dad has been enjoying it, and he hasn't seen any of Arrow or Flash yet. I have had to pause at least once every episode to explain things to him though.

[Quiver]

Speaking of the first episode, it's marked up as 'Pilot Pt 1'. So.

I'm hopefully gonna get it watched after work tomorrow, but I'm gonna leave any comments, reviews and analyses until I can watch both halves.

...though, disappointing to hear Savage hasn't improved from the crossover episode. He wasn't the most impressive villain there; he came across more like a stalker than the uncontrollable id I usually imagine.

[Left]

Speaking of the first episode, it's marked up as 'Pilot Pt 1'. So.

I'm hopefully gonna get it watched after work tomorrow, but I'm gonna leave any comments, reviews and analyses until I can watch both halves.

...though, disappointing to hear Savage hasn't improved from the crossover episode. He wasn't the most impressive villain there; he came across more like a stalker than the uncontrollable id I usually imagine.

He gets a little better... But he's still probably not even as good as Ras Al'Ghul in Arrow season three who was my least favorite main villain before Legends.

[Dunkum]

He gets a little better... But he's still probably not even as good as Ras Al'Ghul in Arrow season three who was my least favorite main villain before Legends.

I don't know if I'd say he's that bad...but the fact is it is close enough that I'm not sure.  there have been a couple of scenes with savage that have worked well for me, which I don't think Ra's really had, but they are both exceedingly bland.

[DSC01]

If you had asked me before last week if I thought Vandal Savage was a bad villain, I'm sure I'd have said no. But I noticed that the time pirates episode was probably my favorite so far, and there's no Savage to be seen. That is rather telling about the quality of the character.

 

This is especially true, given that I should be mad at the show for setting up situation after situation where Jax and Prof should merge and Firestorm the tar out of the antagonists, but they apparently just don't think of it. It's pretty obvious that they just didn't have the budget to do Firestorm on top of the episodes other effects, but couldn't they have come up with a one-line excuse for why it couldn't happen?

 

Like have Rip Hunter say, "We don't know the nature of the damage to the timeship. If there is a quantum core leak, the Firestorm reaction could interact with it and set off a detonation that would ripple through all of space and time!" Whatever. Just give us some reason, no matter how flimsy, that an old college professor thinks that wielding a laser rifle and a beret is a better way to deal with a dozen+ professional criminals than turning into a living nuclear reaction. 

 

And, yet, I still really enjoyed the episode. 

[Quiver]

Well, I just finished the first half of Legends pilot. I'm saving a full reaction until I finish both, but...

Does Rip Hunter remind anyone else of John Constantine? I wonder how much of an influence he was on the character since -show premise aside- Rip reminds me of him more than he does the Doctor.

[Pestis the Spider]

After watching the newest episode, I have just one question:

 

How did Curtis manage to make a front-flip across the computer station. Like c'mon. Random computer geek + sudden front-flips? xD

[Dunkum]

After watching the newest episode, I have just one question:

 

How did Curtis manage to make a front-flip across the computer station. Like c'mon. Random computer geek + sudden front-flips? xD

he's an olympic athlete, if memory serves.  its a bit hard to remember since it hasn't been mentioned since an early episode this season, but he definitely has some kind of sports background.

[Pestis the Spider]

he's an olympic athlete, if memory serves.  its a bit hard to remember since it hasn't been mentioned since an early episode this season, but he definitely has some kind of sports background.

Oh, really? I must've completely forget that.

[Dunkum]

Oh, really? I must've completely forget that.

yea.  i think canonically its olympics in the comics, but I don't remember what exactly they said in the show

[Quiver]

I'm getting caught up on Arrow verse, slowly. In the meantime...

Roy needs to "stay underground" to protect Ollie's secret.

Am I the only one wishing that would mean Roy joining the cast of Legends of Tomorrow?

[DSC01]

If they stick with the plan of having the team change up every season, Roy would definitely be a good addition. I'd really like to have Constantine join up. There were rumors of that, but later someone involved in the show said that his Arrow cameo was all they had planned for the character, so perhaps not.

 

Flash has been really padding out their supporting cast with characters who will probably become speedsters (Wally West, Patty Spivot, Jesse Quick...), but none of them have gotten powers yet. It's too bad: any one of them could be a good addition to a Legends team. Wally West, in particular, would be good because he's another Flash in the comics. Possible story arc: Barry loses powers temporarily/is put out of commission for some other reason, and Wally takes over as the Flash-->Wally quickly begins to feel superfluous once Barry is back in business-->Wally joins up with the Legends team, 'cause they're totally down with having their very own Flash.

[Dunkum]

My personal dream for next season of legends would be to scrap the whole time travel aspect and just do a version of Birds of Prey.   cast:

 

Felicity can go over there to get away from Ollie.   That romance made for some of the most annoying aspects of her character, so I'm hoping distancing her from that lets her get back to S1 and S2 version.  Curtis can take over for her on Arrow

 

set it in Detroit and bring in Vixen as a full time part of the team.

 

Sara Lance can go too because Caity Lotz is fantastic and improves everything.

 

maybe bring in HawkGirl, but give her better writing and let her let loose a bit.  this version is kind of boring so far.

 

Nyssa, Thea, and Laurel can visit on occasion.  others too, I guess.  Maybe bring the Huntress in for an ep or two.  whatever happened to her anyway?

[Left]

So I've been behind on the shows for a while, but I caught up yesterday( although I'm probably going to not catch this week's Arrow and Legends live).

Flash was great, I loved Barry messing around with the timeline, I thought it was a lot of fun.

Arrow...ehh. The villain was annoying, still upset that Ollicity isn't doing very well, liked Curtis, liked Dhark, loved flashback.

Legends: Ray and Kendra are super boring, Sara was good, the Chronos reveal was brilliant!, Snart was beautiful, and there wasn't enough Stein. I was annoyed with Rip claiming that Kendra and Sara were acting oddly because of the Time Drift. I feel like they should Own their actions more than that. I also think Snart not being able to immediately get healed would've been more powerful, if also unrealistic considering the future tech.

[Blaze1616]

I also think Snart not being able to immediately get healed would've been more powerful, if also unrealistic considering the future tech.

 

Heavily agreed. All that this newly revealed healing tech does is removes any tension the show might have had. When Snart destroyed his hand to escape, my mind was blow. They guy whose only offensive prowess is a gun just lost his shooting hand? WHAAAAA!!!???

 

But it got replaced within minutes. Major let down, as him losing his hand would have left TONS of room for some character growth. Plus, since they're spending time in the future for the coming episode(s) anyways, he could get it healed there, and not necessarily on the ship.