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The Atium Problem (spoilers)


Silus - Shard of Flame

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Atium as portrayed in the books has several weird inconsistencies as it relates to the other metals, particularly gold and electrum.

1. Atium alloyed with gold is malatium, which does the same thing gold does but seeing other people.  This relationship could be used as a good measurement of what to expect from other atium alloys, but falls apart with electrum, which essentially does the same thing normal, unalloyed atium does but for yourself like its base, gold.  So where would that put an atium-electrum alloy?  It can't do what electrum does for seeing other people since that's what NORMAL atium does!

2. Atium mistings.  Why would an increased connection to the power of Preservation, which allows you to access the power of Preservation via allomantic metals, give you a connection that actually funnels power from another source entirely without any connection to Preservation's power at all?  Bundled with everything else I understand, but alone?  I'm not seeing the logic here.

These are the two problems I have, but I have a theory that sorts both out...sorta.

I think that atium as seen in the books isn't actually pure atium, rather, it's the atium-electrum alloy.  But wait, atium is the hemalurgic wild card, wouldn't it need to be pure atium to do that?  We only see atium used to steal one thing in the books: the ability to use atium itself.  Nothing else.  How do we know that it IS the actual wild card, rather than something else?  We don't.

What about problem two?  This is the second part of my theory.  A misting can burn a god metal when it is alloyed with their misting metal.  This, coupled with my first theory, means that the atium mistings of the book are actually electrum mistings.  It's just that they never knew about electrum long enough to make the connection.  The only ones who used it were mistborn, who can use all the metals.

Supporting evidence:

-Difficulty of making malatium.  The reason Kelsier had to travel the world in order to find it was that they didn't alloy atium and gold, they had to take out the presence of silver (the metal alloyed with gold to make electrum) in order to make it.

-Preservation's intentions for atium.  He wanted to make Ruin weaker by hiding his power as metal.  So he put it in the Pits of Hathsin.  Why not take it a step further and dilute it with the presence of other metals to mask its presence?

-The mist snapping and the mistsickness.  This makes it so that Preservation doesn't have to change how the magic is perceived (very preservative of him, eh?), rather, just emphasize a particular type of misting, electrum.

This is a theory that's been sitting in my head for a while, and I hope it's not crap.  What do you think?  And I'm specifically looking at the old TWG theorizers.

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Yeah, this theory has gone around the block a few times. I don't buy it.

The atium Misting problem isn't as big as you think it is (or its bigger, depending how you think about it). Under your logic, Mistborn shouldn't be able to burn atium, either. I don't think making atium into an atium-electrum alloy solves this problem.

So here's a wacky counter-theory for you which I'm not even sure I actually like, though I think it's more likely than atium being an alloy. The Allomantic effect of atium is a combination of Preservation and Ruin's power. You, as the Allomancer, take some of Preservation's power, which interacts with the atium, destroying it rapidly, but as it does, you get an Allomantic effect out of it. This wacky theory could explain why atium burns much more rapidly than other metals.

Anyways, that's a weird theory. But come on. It's much more likely that there's some strange Preservation-Ruin interfacing with the god metals than an atium-electrum alloy. The god metals and their alloys' powers are extremely mysterious to us, so I'm not sure why you'd think there's an inherent contradiction in atium's ability compared to the normal temporal metals. Atium is not a normal temporal metal, so any symmetry you see with the normal temporal metals is essentially false anyways.

Besides, lerasium most certainly has a Hemalurgic power, and that's certainly not because it's an alloy of something weird. I'll put money on "weird Shard interaction" any day of the week, because that could explain both god metals. I'm not sure how it works, but that's because we don't know how god metals truly work.

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Besides, lerasium most certainly has a Hemalurgic power, and that's certainly not because it's an alloy of something weird. I'll put money on "weird Shard interaction" any day of the week, because that could explain both god metals. I'm not sure how it works, but that's because we don't know how god metals truly work.

I'm gonna have to go with chaos on this one. Heck, we don't even know actually know WHAT burning Lerasium does, do we? Last i heard that was still an unknown (unless its recently been puzzled out and confirmed and i just havent been paying attention)

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I'm not saying that pure atium doesn't exist, I'm saying we haven't actually seen it yet.  And I'm not saying that there SHOULD be symmetry between it and the temporal metals, quite the opposite, I'm saying that it SHOULDN'T have symmetry since it isn't actually part of them.

I say I'm okay with mistborn burning atium because they can burn any metal with power to it, which would be all the metals that are part of the system plus the metals, which have inherent power to them.  It's when you put it by itself that it's weird.

But it's already been established that different metals have different burning rates, pewter burning fast, tin burning slow, etc.  Atium burns faster because it has so much more power, which seems to be what causes the different rates.

Yeah, lerasium has hemalurgic power, but there's no connection to Ruin involved with hemalurgy where there is a connection with Preservation necessary for allomancy to function.  I find it odd that a connection to Preservation gives you a power that actually bypasses him.

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but there's no connection to Ruin involved with hemalurgy

I think the voices in Zane's head would like to have a word with you.

That's more a function of the flaw Ruin built into Hemalurgy. Silus is saying that you don't have to have some special quality that Ruin gave you to use Hemalurgy, whereas Allomancy requires Preservation's influence.

Of course, I'd just counter that Hemalurgy only works on a general level due to Ruin, so to speak.

Now you've got me wondering what a lerasium spike does. The koloss are so twisted because the Hemalurgy is stealing the pure power of Preservation itself, and that twists more than just stealing Allomantic or Feruchemical potential (which is kind of weird, in respect to this topic, since Allomancy is caused by greater Preservation, right? Then again, simplifying Allomancy to "more Preservation is better" doesn't explain Allomancy fragmenting into Mistings). So jeez, things with a lerasium spike in them--literally purified Preservation--must be the most twisted things ever.

Now, obviously when it comes to Hemalurgic powers, metals don't have to steal one power, so to speak. Atium could steal anything Hemalurgically, so let's think of lerasium in a more general--and terrifying--fashion. Possibilities:

1. Lerasium spikes could steal the Ruin in someone. I can't imagine what that would even do.

2. Lerasium could fully steal the power of a Mistborn.

3. Anything with lerasium spikes would be hella twisted.

(Let's make a collective sigh of relief Ruin didn't have access to lerasium spikes)

I'd imagine that atium has a side effect like lerasium does, but I couldn't imagine what that would be. It makes you more likely to Ruin stuff? That's pretty lame.

Besides, lerasium most certainly has a Hemalurgic power, and that's certainly not because it's an alloy of something weird. I'll put money on "weird Shard interaction" any day of the week, because that could explain both god metals. I'm not sure how it works, but that's because we don't know how god metals truly work.

I'm gonna have to go with chaos on this one. Heck, we don't even know actually know WHAT burning Lerasium does, do we? Last i heard that was still an unknown (unless its recently been puzzled out and confirmed and i just havent been paying attention)

I'm pretty sure burning lerasium Allomantically permanently increases your Allomantic potential.

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Well, remember that burning atium turns you into a killing machine.  I'd say that qualifies as pretty Ruin-y.

And didn't Brandon say in a Q&A that a Lerasium spike would steal all the powers of a Mistborn along with other effects?  I believe it was mentioned that he answered that question because he hadn't had a question as in depth as that before.  Apparently he got savvy in the latest question roundup since he RAFO'd similar questions from me except for that "burning a hemalurgy spike splices your spiritual DNA" bit.

I'm not entirely sure that the Shards have absolute control over how their magic functions in regards to mortals.  They may influence things (Preservation's use of the mists, Ruin speaking to people with spikes) but I don't think they control how it's structured.

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Well, remember that burning atium turns you into a killing machine.  I'd say that qualifies as pretty Ruin-y.

And didn't Brandon say in a Q&A that a Lerasium spike would steal all the powers of a Mistborn along with other effects?  I believe it was mentioned that he answered that question because he hadn't had a question as in depth as that before.  Apparently he got savvy in the latest question roundup since he RAFO'd similar questions from me except for that "burning a hemalurgy spike splices your spiritual DNA" bit.

I'm not entirely sure that the Shards have absolute control over how their magic functions in regards to mortals.  They may influence things (Preservation's use of the mists, Ruin speaking to people with spikes) but I don't think they control how it's structured.

I haven't heard of such a Q&A, as I was sure it's always been RAFO'd. He's always RAFO'd me. If you could whip that up, that'd be awesome.

And no, Shards don't have absolute control over how their magic works, as much of it would be governed by the laws of magic. I'm saying that Hemalurgy is, obviously, a consequence of Ruin.

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probably in the HoA Spoilers/ Q&A thread, but it's just TOO HUGE.

It's not there. At least, I'd be immensely surprised if it was. I've read that thread multiple times, and I'm pretty sure I'd remember something about lerasium's Hemalurgic power, considering people still ask about it now...

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I think that atium as seen in the books isn't actually pure atium, rather, it's the atium-electrum alloy.  But wait, atium is the hemalurgic wild card, wouldn't it need to be pure atium to do that?  We only see atium used to steal one thing in the books: the ability to use atium itself.  Nothing else.  How do we know that it IS the actual wild card, rather than something else?  We don't.

What about problem two?  This is the second part of my theory.  A misting can burn a god metal when it is alloyed with their misting metal.  This, coupled with my first theory, means that the atium mistings of the book are actually electrum mistings.  It's just that they never knew about electrum long enough to make the connection.  The only ones who used it were mistborn, who can use all the metals.

Supporting evidence:

-Difficulty of making malatium.  The reason Kelsier had to travel the world in order to find it was that they didn't alloy atium and gold, they had to take out the presence of silver (the metal alloyed with gold to make electrum) in order to make it.

-Preservation's intentions for atium.  He wanted to make Ruin weaker by hiding his power as metal.  So he put it in the Pits of Hathsin.  Why not take it a step further and dilute it with the presence of other metals to mask its presence?

-The mist snapping and the mistsickness.  This makes it so that Preservation doesn't have to change how the magic is perceived (very preservative of him, eh?), rather, just emphasize a particular type of misting, electrum.

This is a theory that's been sitting in my head for a while, and I hope it's not crap.  What do you think?  And I'm specifically looking at the old TWG theorizers.

Ummmm... I'm gonna go ahead and say no. Your supporting evidence isn't very supportive. Malatium was hard to find because no one in their right mind would mix the most valuable metal on Earth Scadrial with another metal that would destroy its value entirely.

also like Chaos said you could make the same argument that Mistborn shouldn't be able to burn atium. However I have wondered a bit about "the atium problem" and came to this conclusion. remember at its core allomancy is the power granted by preservation to ingest and metabolize metals to access there power. there are only16 metals that can be burned. If you can burn one of them and your a misting. If you can burn all 16 of them and your a Mistborn, Right?

Wrong. There are more then 16 metals and I'm not talking about the god metals either. Kelsier tells Vin to be careful with burning here metals because if she burns one that isn't alloyed right or one that isn't of the 10 (really 16) the outcome could range from discomfort to death. So really every metal produces an allomantic effect when burned, its just that only 16 of then have a worth while effect. but when the god metal is burned its power is released because it is the power/body of a god. When Rashek discovered allomancy he had no idea what it was or what metals could be used. but he was a feruchemist. it probably didnt take him long to realize that every feruchemical metal has an allomantic property. so he would assume that it is an allomantic metal because he is getting power from it even though technically it is the body of a god.

There also is a valid point of why there are atium mistings. the mists dont give the power, they snap people. they already have to have the DNA to let them become allomancers which tecnically means that they should have the DNA of mistborn even though it is very diluted, so when a misting snaps they access the ability to burn a metal. My idea is that the mists went and purposefully snapped the mistings  to be able to burn atium.

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1. Lerasium spikes could steal the Ruin in someone. I can't imagine what that would even do.

2. Lerasium could fully steal the power of a Mistborn.

3. Anything with lerasium spikes would be hella twisted.

I think that 1 or 3 may be true, but I don't think 2 would be. Why? Because it's too boring! It makes a lerasium spike irrelevant, since you could just burn a tiny bead of lerasium to get mistborn powers.

Plus, isn't Atium able to steal any of the powers?

Hmm. So what would a Lerasium spike do?

1. It could give you a Breath, like in Warbreaker. It could steal part of your soul and give it to whoever has the breath.

2. It could turn you into a mistborn llama

I'm with Chaos, and I believe that the Atium that we see is pure Atium.

I wish that we knew what Lerasium did Feruchemically! If Atium has a time attribute in allomancy, and a time attribute in feruchemy, and a wild card in Atium, then Lerasium might have the opposite correlation.

EDIT- Chaos was right (see below). So I changed Atium to Lerasium, which is what I meant.

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1. Lerasium spikes could steal the Ruin in someone. I can't imagine what that would even do.

2. Lerasium could fully steal the power of a Mistborn.

3. Anything with lerasium spikes would be hella twisted.

I think that 1 or 3 may be true, but I don't think 2 would be. Why? Because it's too boring! It makes a lerasium spike irrelevant, since you could just burn a tiny bead of lerasium to get mistborn powers.

Plus, isn't Atium able to steal any of the powers?

Very excellent point, Zas. If that's what lerasium did, it's too boring. And you're right, atium can steal any power, given the right placement.

Brandon did say Hemalurgy had greater implications than just Scadrial, so I'd imagine with the right placement, you could steal Breath. That sounds like an easier thing to do with atium than lerasium, though.

I wish that we knew what Atium did Feruchemically! If Atium has a time attribute in allomancy, and a time attribute in feruchemy, and a wild card in Atium, then Lerasium might have the opposite correlation.

You mean what lerasium did Feruchemically?

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It actually may have been in the Annotations. If I remember correctly, Brandon said something like "Lerasium grants Mistborn powers, but really, that's a side effect." When we started theorizing on TWG about it, Peter commented saying "I asked if he wanted to change the words, and he said no." Peter thought that "side effect" have the wrong impression.

So, from what I've gathered, this is what burning Lerasium does. It dramatically increases your connection to Preservation, and that connection to Preservation turns you into a Mistborn.

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Well, I'm pretty sure that it would do something else, along with stealing all of the powers of Mistborn.  It has an effect that is outside of the three magic systems is what I remember.  I know I saw that in a Q&A of some kind!

I mean when you use Lerasium as a Hemalurgic spike.  I know I saw it somewhere!

EDIT: That's one of the problems with this fandom, there's so much information flying around that we forget where it's all coming from.

A spike having another effect? I dunno, it's possible, but I don't remember that at all. I like to think I have a good encyclopedic memory when it comes to Mistborn :P

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