How does Odium Splinter other Shards?

[Senor Feesh]

I didn't want to thread-jack, and although I'm sure there must be a good thread foe this somewhere, my forum-fu has failed me and I can't find one where this is the focus of the original discussion.

So, how is it done? Does Odium wait until a Shard is already weak, before smashing himself against it (as per Vin taking down Ati, but more unbalanced)? I suspect if this was the method, he'd need a long time to recover as he'd inevitably be depleting his own essence by doing so.

Others have speculated on the quote from Tanavast, that it may in some way come down to a fight between champions, some kind of Vassal chosen by the Shards.

Still others have considered the idea that it in some way involves the larger population of a world, and that Alethkar and the Thrill may be a clue towards this.

For myself, I don't know, but it's fun to speculate. As a final point, here's a quote from Elantris, the last line of chapter 6:

"You will find that hate can unify people more quickly and more fervently than devotion ever could."

A simple observation, or the legacy of Odium's visit to Sel? You decide!

[Leuthie]

The Vin and Ati I fight didn't result in Splintering. I'm 99% sure direct confrontation isn't a large part of the process. Maybe the final act of killing the Shardholder, but then you have a Shard ready for anyone to pick up.

And Odium doesn't pick up the Shard.

I presume that he kills and Splinters with the culmination of several machinations. I believe the quote from Elantris you gave is Brandon telling us of Odiums visit. My theory: find people.the target Shard is invested in; engender hate of the intent of that Shard in those followers; through this hate, redirect the Investiture as a feedback loop through yourself then back to the target; finally, direct your own energy into this loop, destroying the Shard...picture Neo flying into Agent Smith at the end of Matrix 1.

[Senor Feesh]

True the Vin and Ati fight didn't result in Splintering. I believe that this is because they were roughly equal im power, and so the holders both died together. However, I believe the theory is that if one Shard was significantly weaker (perhaps because they have deliberately partially Splintered themselves, such as Endowment) then it would allow Rayse to survive such a contest, then Splinter the power once it becomes free from a holder again.

How this would be achieved I don't know, perhaps the Shards become vulnerable in Shadesmar when they have no strong Cognitive aspect to hold them together? More speculation.

[Vortaan]

True the Vin and Ati fight didn't result in Splintering. I believe that this is because they were roughly equal im power, and so the holders both died together. However, I believe the theory is that if one Shard was significantly weaker (perhaps because they have deliberately partially Splintered themselves, such as Endowment) then it would allow Rayse to survive such a contest, then Splinter the power once it becomes free from a holder again.

How this would be achieved I don't know, perhaps the Shards become vulnerable in Shadesmar when they have no strong Cognitive aspect to hold them together? More speculation.

 

I think an important clue here is the state of Shadesmar on Sel. It's a mess, dangerous to travel in. I think Odium attacks the Cognitive aspect of Shards. After all, hatred does tend to destroy reason.

[ROSHtafARian]

I don't have my copy of WoK handy, but from what I remember of the relevant epigraph, the phrasing went something like 'Aona and Skai are dead, and that which they held has been Splintered.'  Correct?

 

For some reason my instinctual reading of it was always that Odium killed Aona and Skai, and the Splintering occurred after their deaths.  Is it possible that Splintering might occur naturally if there's no one around to take up the Shard, and hold it together, in a sense?  Like, a cognitive or physical aspect is needed to keep the spiritual essence of a shard coherent, and if too long passes without someone taking that Shard up, it starts to fragment into smaller pieces?

[Binnut]

I think I have read somewhere that splintering a shard is a process that takes a lot of both time and effort.

I also think it was said that Odium was somewhat weakened after splintering Aona and Skai.

 

This is just from my memory, I haven't been able to find the quote.

[Cheese Ninja]

Found it:

QUESTION:
The next question I have is does Odium have to recover after Shattering a Shard?

BRANDON:
It is a difficult process that is very taxing.

 

It's very light on the details, but yeah, that seems to be what he's saying.  I can't remember if there's a comment specifically about Odium's state after splintering Aona and Skai.

[Truthless]

I think an important clue here is the state of Shadesmar on Sel. It's a mess, dangerous to travel in. I think Odium attacks the Cognitive aspect of Shards. After all, hatred does tend to destroy reason.

 

I think Odium would need to attack all the aspects of a Shard in order to splinter it. I would love to speculate more, but we know so little

 

It could be that a true, permanent Splintering requires the undermining of the Spiritual through the kind of negative feedback loop like has been mentioned, the destruction of the Cognitive through Shadesmar somehow, and the killing of the Physical through the battle of Champions or some such.

 

Anyway, nothing we've seen a Shard doing up to now has had any long-term affect on the Shard. When Vin threw herself against Ruin, the Physical (and Cognitive? I'm not sure what all the Shardholder represents) aspect was destroyed, but the Spiritual power was completely intact. And on Sel, there were *two* shards, who would not have stood by and let the other be destroyed (well, at least Devotion wouldn't have. Not sure about the other). And I don't know where this theory is going. Clearly Odium did something we haven't seen before.

[Senor Feesh]

Further speculation - yay!

The following hypothesis assumes two things. 1) That Shu-Dereth came from Dominion and Shu-Korath came from Devotion, and 2) that the above quote about hatred and devotion is in fact a clue and not simply an in-world observation.

We know that Shu-Keseg was a religion that preached unity. I know that KChan has a pretty damnation appealing theory that Dominion and Devotion being conjoined is evident in their magic's being region-locked. I also know that she believes the magic systems on Sel were regional BEFORE the splintering. I'm not 100% on that yet, but it works with what I'm about to suggest.

So let's say that Aona and Skai agree to work together on Sel, and Shu-Keseg is founded in response to this ideal of unity. They both have different ideals of what unity should be or mean, but agree to ignore this for mutual benefit.

Later, Odium, feeling threatened by thus, visits Sel and slyly suggests to Skai that Aona's way is fundamentally flawed. What's more, Odium can help tilt the balance, giving Skai dominion (heh) over all of Sel. Odium subtly twists. Skai into hating Aona, and gives him just enough backing and extra power to take Aona down - before betraying him and killing him in his weakened staten then proceeding to Splinter both. Presumably he would need some way to stop anyone else taking up one of the Shards, as we know he needs time to recover after a Splintering.

The quote about hatred unifying more effectively than devotion then, could indeed be a clue to the interference of Odium on Sel, and the reason that the Derethi priests have adopted this into their dogma is because Dominion's teachings were tainted by his alliance with Rayse.

As stated, total speculation. And doesn't answer the question of HOW splintering is achieved, but may support the notion that it could be tied into the people on the planet (as the religions would then have split around the time of Odium screwing with things).

The biggest potential flaw I can see with this notion is timing. I've not yet looked at the known timeline concerning when Shu-Keseg split, and (if known) how long ago the Splintering occurred on Sel (alternatively when the Seons first came to be, as we know this was post-Odium).

[Leuthie]

Maybe it was as simple as Odium facilitating the creation of Seon and Skaze around the time he killed Aona and Skai. Permanent entities taking up huge amounts of the newly free Shardic energy. Enough of the free energy that the remaining energy lost cohesion, resulting in a fully splintered Shard.

Assuming he did something similar to Honor, what on Roshar could be the permanent entities that are the physical ties to Honor's Splinters?

Edited May 6, 2013 by Leuthie

[darkanimereal1]

Well, even though Odium isn't currently holding any of the splintered shards, he could have held them after the shardholder was killed. Maybe he killed the holder, picked up the shard and recovered, but then became a sliver and splintered the shard. Or he splintered the shard while holding it. Anyway, I feel like that may have helped him splinter it afterward.

 

PUCK

"Is the definition of Sliver: Someone who has held a large part of the raw form of a Shard temporarily?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"That is it"

 

From here. 

[Haradion Drogon]

I assumed that splitering was the direct result of killing the shardbearer - or that it resulted in the death of the shard-bearer. But that is clearly not the case, since Leras died without splintering Preservation, and Endowment is regularly splintering herself, while still living...

 

Do we know what effects Splintering has on the Shardbearer?

[Vortaan]

I assumed that splitering was the direct result of killing the shardbearer - or that it resulted in the death of the shard-bearer. But that is clearly not the case, since Leras died without splintering Preservation, and Endowment is regularly splintering herself, while still living...

 

Do we know what effects Splintering has on the Shardbearer?

 

Thread necro ahoy! Anyway, we can assume that Splintering either kills the person holding the Shard, or that killing the host is part of the Splintering. Why? Because Honor, Devotion, and Dominion are all Splintered, and Tanavast, Aona, and Skai are all dead... so yeah.

[WeiryWriter]

We do have this WoB:

 

Wetlander: Did the splintering happen before the Recreance?
 
A: I will reveal this as we go.  However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed.  So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.
 
Hoser: did Tanavast survive Honor’s splintering?
 
A: Tanavast is dead.  Good question.  However, that is as of the start of the WoK (i.e., not including the prelude at least).
 
Hoser: So he could have survived the splintering…
 
A: He could have survived the splintering.
 
Hoser: …as a mortal…
 
A: Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then…right.
 
Hoser: …passed away in his sleep…
 
A: Right. (Indicating that Tanavast would not have passed away from old age)

 

(source)

[Kelvin]

True the Vin and Ati fight didn't result in Splintering. I believe that this is because they were roughly equal im power, and so the holders both died together. However, I believe the theory is that if one Shard was significantly weaker (perhaps because they have deliberately partially Splintered themselves, such as Endowment) then it would allow Rayse to survive such a contest, then Splinter the power once it becomes free from a holder again.

How this would be achieved I don't know, perhaps the Shards become vulnerable in Shadesmar when they have no strong Cognitive aspect to hold them together? More speculation.

Ah, but you're forgetting that Rayse had splintered his shard. The void spren are splinters of odium.

[MistLord]

While it may mean nothing, I find it important to note that Vin channeled some of her own hatred towards Rayse (Ruin) when they killed each other. I picked up on it in a reread because of hate = Odium and how Odium has been splintering Shards, and the fact WoB is that the ability to splinter Shards is in some way unique to Odium (though maybe not entirely).

 

As I said, could be nothing though. 

[Tempus]

 

 

I find it important to note that Vin channeled some of her own hatred towards Rayse (Ruin)

 

Ati is Ruin, Rayse is Odium. Apologies for being nitpicky.

[Numb]

While it may mean nothing, I find it important to note that Vin channeled some of her own hatred towards Rayse (Ruin) when they killed each other. I picked up on it in a reread because of hate = Odium and how Odium has been splintering Shards, and the fact WoB is that the ability to splinter Shards is in some way unique to Odium (though maybe not entirely).

 

As I said, could be nothing though. 

 

Don't think Vin channeled hatred towards Ati when she did that. I read it more as her knowing that it would kill her so while she still had a reason to live she wouldn't attack. Vin didn't seem to really hate anyone, she just wanted to survive and protect the people she loves. That made her perfect preservation holder as she knew in order to "preserve" humanity she had to destroy. Leras couldn't manage the second part.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Numb

[Battar]

I'm curious about this process as well, but I haven't read Elantris, so someone else might have to add in some information from that SpiritWeb/worldview regarding how exactly the magic system has changed after Splintering. 

 

What I gather from thinking about these magic systems and Shards being Splintered is that the process is both arduous and taxing. I think the reason it is that way is that it requires careful action on Odium's part to pervert or manipulate a world's SpiritWeb in a way that changes how people use or participate in the magic systems facilitated by things like the Splintering of Honor, Cultivation, Devotion, and Dominion. These actions from Odium are meant to sow chaos where he can and divide those who participate in the magic systems (such as the Knights Radiant or people practicing in AonDor or others) from the Shards that fuel them. It could be that Odium Splinters a Shard by uniting people against a Shard's true intent, effectively people "losing faith", but in a way that uses that magic system to do it. An example would be Voidbinding, as it seems to pervert the usage of Surgebinding (evidenced by the anti-symmetry seen in glyphs of the Voidbinding chart) into something that isn't at all what Honor intended.

 

I'm really not sure about all of this, but I do feel as though the difficulty in Splintering a Shard comes from the realy gritty work that goes into sowing hatred and chaos in the SpiritWeb through perversions of things like Dominion's Intent or Honor's Intent. Honor likely Splintered himself to create the Oathpact and the Heralds that trapped Odium on Roshar during Desolations. The Oathpact seems to have been a way to use the perversion of Surgebinding to try and keep Odium Splintered in pieces he tried to use to give Voidbinding its potency.

[Stormgate]

If we want to understand how to shatter Shards, we need to better understand what Shards are. Are they simply ideas given power, like spren? That is the only explanation I can think of, but if so, they are unlike any spren we've previously encountered, of course.

Anybody have any better ideas?

[Voidus]

If we want to understand how to shatter Shards, we need to better understand what Shards are. Are they simply ideas given power, like spren? That is the only explanation I can think of, but if so, they are unlike any spren we've previously encountered, of course.

Anybody have any better ideas?

Shattered fragments of the power of Adonalsium.

[Charononus]

I assumed that Odium alone knows how Adonalsium shattered,  and applies the same method.

[I Am Stick]

I think its to do with belief. WoB is that kaladins scars did not heal with storm light because that's how he viewed himself, and your own perception influences who you are. If you think of that on a larger scale, maybe the masses of people who believe in the shard as a God gives the shards power, with the belief in the cognitive realm giving power in the spiritual realm. Shards, I think, will be the only thing that can exist on all three realms at the same time.

Sandersons books are heavily interwoven with religion and I think that, much like spren are the manifestation of thoughts, that the belief of people empower the shards. It wouldn't surprise me if shards are splintered by eroding the belief system thereby weakening them for a full frontal attack a la Vin vs Ruin. This would leave Odium weak but not destroyed as the shards would be unequally matched.

I also agree with an earlier post that the state of Shademere is a direct result of splintering the two shards there. The untapped power causing it to behave wrong in the cognitive realm and Sions and Skaze the effects on the physical realm. It also occurs to me that Hoid appeared from what is likely to be Cultivations Shardpool, I wonder if Shademere is only accessible through this way. Since Honour is splintered his pool would be unaccessable perhaps?

Edited November 6, 2015 by I Am Stick

[Rockbud]

If you think of that on a larger scale, maybe the masses of people who believe in the shard as a God gives the shards power, with the belief in the cognitive realm giving power in the spiritual realm.

I kind of like this, and could see how it might work. The first hole I can see is related to Mistborn: preservation puts a bit more of itself into humans than ruin, and becomes a tiny bit weaker than ruin for having done so. This suggests that the power they had was finite. If they could have gained more power through belief, this tiny offset of initial balance wouldnt have mattered at all.

[phattemer]

This thread has been confusing Splintering and Shattering for a while.

Splintering =/= Shard is gone

Shattering == Shard is gone