Fantasy Pet Peeve Discussion Thread

[FeatherWriter]

Alright, as a woman who likes comics, I'll throw my hat in the ring.

 

I like how Frosted Flakes originally said that women wanted to look like the sexy superheroines in spandex. And that male superheroes are catered to be our kind of fanservice, because they're also idealized.

 

...because I'll just come out and say that's garbage.

 

Girls don't want to look like sexy bimbos who break our spines to show off the boobs and butt position. There's a great tumblr called escher girls that showcases these kinds of ridiculous "sexy" poses that are actually just kinda straight up horrifying. IDK, maybe straight guys find that sort of thing attractive. But I find it unsettling, gross, and not more than a little demeaning. If you come in here and tell me that you think girls actually like those kinds of things, I'm going to laugh.

 

I just love how you complained about how Thor is a woman now. Because... go figure, that's exactly the kind of thing that I, as a female comics reader, like to see. The new Thor is the kind of superheroine that is a female power fantasy, in the same vein as superheroes throughout the years have been male power fantasies. A glorified bikini being passed off as armor isn't empowering. Well designed female characters in awesome armor? Now that's what I'd like to see. 

 

I mean... for real. My 17S member description lists that "well-designed female armor" is one of my faves.

 

In order to give you a good idea of what the difference between straight male desires in comic books and straight female desires are, let's imagine what the comics industry might look like if it had been catered to people like me for years and years rather than its traditional target demographic. What do I want to see when I open a comic?

 

Their costumes should be elegant, beautiful, and powerful. Warrior girls get armor that looks great and is functional and realistic. I want their armor to look so cool and also strike fear into the hearts of all their enemies. None of this hyper-sexualized nonsense. Not interested at all, thanks. I don't want to look sexy, I want to look AWESOME. Why would she need to look sexy? I don't want my heroines to be sexy, and who cares what straight dudes want, because we're catering this comics experience to me. Those armors are impractical. I'm not going to like a character who doesn't know how to properly cover up for a fight. That just tells me she's probably really dumb and deserves to get stabbed somewhere since she doesn't know how clothing works. Maybe if you've got an invulnerable character who can justify showing skin in a fight, make sure they look cool rather than sexualized.

 

So, give me costume designs like Lady Sif, Thor from the current comic run, America Chavez, Hawkeye, Aveline de Grandpré from Assassin's Creed: Liberation, Hawke from Dragon Age 2, The Inquisitor from Dragon Age Inquisition, Isa from Infinity Blade. 

 

Body types? I don't want huge-boobed, stick-thin-waist girls. Give me heroines who look like they can take a punch and send one back. Give me slender, elegant girls. Give me heroines with curves in all kinds of places. Tall, short, skinny, curvy. There's all kinds of beautiful female body types that I like. Like, we're being idealizing here, so let's make them all attractive, but there's all kinds of good ways to do that.

 

As for the guys, what kind of things am I looking for? Well, I'll be honest, tons of muscles doesn't appeal to me. I like my heroes lean. Give me tall and skinny guys over bulging muscles any day. I want charming smiles and pretty eyes. Costuming? Let's do formal wear whenever possible. Have you heard it said that a well-tailored suit is sexier than lingerie? It's true. Suits and military uniforms, that's the way to a girl's heart.

 

Give me guys that look like Daredevil from the Netflix series. I'll take MCU Loki in a heartbeat over MCU Thor, no offense to Mr. Hemsworth. Neal Caffrey from Suits. Bellamy Blake from The 100. Balem Abrasax from Jupiter Ascending.

 

 

Whew, if all comic books and video games looked like that, I have a feeling a large percentage of the female demographic would be rather pleased. I know I certainly would be. I could go on and on, talk about how I want more diverse female body types. How I want my fanservice (dude characters that I like getting beat up/tortured is a personal favorite). Because here's the thing, people talk about how SJWs are "ruining" comics or video games or whatever, but what they're really doing is opening it up to appeal to more demographics.

 

Traditional straight dude comic book readers/gamers are always going to be able to get their beefcake heroes and impractically sexy female trophy characters. Seriously, those aren't going to disappear off the face of the earth. Why does everybody have to throw a fit just because we're finally getting some characters who aren't like that for a change. Honestly, even if these new character types weren't being aimed at someone like me, I'd be grateful for them for variety's sake alone.

 

Haven't we beaten male-characters-as-male-power-fantasy and female-characters-as-male-sexual-fantasy archetypes to death yet? There's been enough. Let's change it up and try catering to somebody else for a change, huh?

 

Maybe you like those kinds of characters. Maybe you're upset that you're getting less characters like that because you enjoy reading about/playing as beefcakes and bimbos. But I certainly don't. I'm sick to death of it. And the fact of the matter is, straight dudes are no longer the only people in these "nerdy" hobbies. To be quite honest, straight male dudes were never the only demographics in these activities, but those of us who don't fit into those categories are finally speaking up loud enough that creators are listening.

 

That demographic has plenty of cookies on their fictional plate, catered exactly to their tastes. Let someone else get a cookie or two for a change, just the way we like them. Sound good? Good.

[RenegadeShroom]

That demographic has plenty of cookies on their fictional plate, catered exactly to their tastes. Let someone else get a cookie or two for a change, just the way we like them. Sound good? Good.

 

Actually, speaking of that, I'll take the opportunity to drop a link to the raisin analogy. It's not a very long post, but to summarise. You have a bunch of chocolate raisins, put a handful in one bowl, and fill the other bowl to the brim. This is plainly unfair. You give these bowls to two people, and take away five raisins from the person with barely anything in theirs, give them to person with the already full bowl. Now you're just being an chull. If you take a handful from the full bowl and drop them in the other bowl, however, you're evening out the scales. Even if you added the same number of raisins to each bowl, it'd take a hell of a lot of raisins for the numerical difference to even out!

 

The chocolate raisins in the post are an analogy for fictional characters, the bowls are a stand in for race, but you can apply it to any kind of representation, really. Gender, for instance.

 

So, actually making this relevant to the discussion! Like Feather was saying, straight men already have their bowls filled to the brim with chocolate raisins. What does it tell everyone else about you when you react this way to taking a handful of raisins out of your full bowl, and give them to someone who's bowl is practically empty? You'll barely even notice, while it'll mean a hell of a lot more to the other person. Or are straight men protesting this sort of thing so greedy that they'll stomp and cry for their raisins back when you try to make things a little more fair for everyone else?

 

(Feather, you're welcome for me making your post at least 25% objectively better by posting this. YOU'RE WELCOME.)

[Delightful]

I'm just going to jump in here and agree with Feather: those women look *awesome*; when they run around in bikini armour it just looks plain uncomfortable and silly. Also, Matt Murdock/guys in suits are way better than tall, broad shouldered muscle men.

[Sera]

Wait. Guys, don't you realize that heroines  are the very best fighters while male heroes are just Your Average Guy™?
 
How else you'd explain the fact these women are able to balance on their combat stilettos and not get killed? If a female hero is able to perform all sort of stunts on high heels she might wear this type of outfit and simply dodge 100% of the time as well, while her male counterparts need a little more armor because they're clearly less skilled, with their plain old shoes and everything. Pff, these clumsy male fighters.
 
...no?
 
 
In all seriousness, the gender discussion is older than dirt. The only solution I see is fairly long term: produce non-sexualized content and show that it works.
 
A big argument by art directors, the marketing people, and everyone directing content creators in some way is that their target audience wants sexy heroines. They believe men will resent a less objectifying wardrobe, and the women—when they recognize there are females fans—either want to look at those said idealized female or won't mind the extra skin. Therefore, directors regulate the content to match what they believe their audience wants.
 
No matter well founded are your arguments unfortunately they'll go mostly unheard in today's society, if not prompt a negative reaction ("They're taking my cookies!"). It seems more effective to me to quietly produce more of the balanced content and show the directors that it actually works, that the target audience isn't as shallow as they first supposed, and that unlike objectifying content it doesn't negatively impact the society.

 

That's what I've been doing at least, and what I found out. But given how I'm not worldwide famous my work has limited reach, right? Well, we have a couple of examples of products with a worldwide reach already, like latest Mad Max. While the Wives are sexualized in-setting, they're not overtly sexualized on screen. Just peek at they chose to use a centered composition focused on action for a start, and compare with women's treatment in other action movies.

 

What can be done as a fan? Support the good stories. Show to publishers that they work. Though raising awareness is good, it's not effective. After fulfilling its initial purpose of being informative this type of discussion often degenerates into a pointless shouting match. Some people actually enjoy fighting, and people who care about the issue often are in the same position as you, unable to produce immediate, direct changes.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Sera

[Chaos]

Adamir, why did you refer to yourself as a "Y-Chromosome built ape"? How am I supposed to take anything you just wrote seriously if you don't even have basic self respect? What kind of man timidly debases himself as a matter of course? As if men as a sex are guilty of some great sin and should be ashamed? Snap out of it, man.

Literally everything you said about men wanting to possess women is wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Women themselves would rather be tall, statuesque, beautiful and big-boobed than short, fat, and strangely shaped. Those female super hero bodies are the ideal feminine shape. Ideal as in, almost unattainable in their perfection.

Just like the male superheroes.

The world is not out the oppress women, dude. I think you're inventing persecution where persecution does not exist.

And is there something intrinsically wrong with men finding a youthful, fit, gorgeous woman full of feminine vitality attractive? Is there someone intrinsically wrong with women wanting to be attractive?

Did you even read my post?

No one is "objectifying" women. They're idealizing them. No one is robbing women of their agency or any stupid crap like that. Women aren't being systematically oppressed by an evil patriarchy.

How's it going Alaxel? I see you're back. I thought we had banned you at least three times now.

[Delightful]

Wait. Guys, don't you realize that heroines are the very best fighters while male heroes are just Your Average Guy™?

How else you'd explain the fact these women are able to balance on their combat stilettos and not get killed? If a female hero is able to perform all sort of stunts on high heels she might wear this type of outfit and simply dodge 100% of the time as well, while her male counterparts need a little more armor because they're clearly less skilled, with their plain old shoes and everything. Pff, these clumsy male fighters.

...no?

In all seriousness, the gender discussion is older than dirt. The only solution I see is fairly long term: produce non-sexualized content and show that it works.

A big argument by art directors, the marketing people, and everyone directing content creators in some way is that their target audience wants sexy heroines. The men will resent a less objectifying female wardrobe, and the women—when they recognize there are females fans—either want to look at those said idealized female or won't mind the extra skin. Therefore, directors regulate the content to match what they believe their audience wants.

No matter well founded are your arguments unfortunately they'll go mostly unheard in today's society, if not prompt a negative reaction ("They're taking my cookies!"). It seems more effective to me to quietly produce more of the balanced content and show the directors that it actually works, that the target audience isn't as shallow as they first supposed, and that unlike objectifying content it doesn't negatively impact the society.

That's what I've been doing at least, and what I found out. But given how I'm not worldwide famous my work has limited reach, right? Well, we have a couple of examples of products with a worldwide reach already, like latest Mad Max. While the Wives are sexualized in-setting, they're not overtly sexualized on screen. Just peek at they chose to use a centered composition focused on action for a start, and compare with women's treatment in other action movies.

Which is great for the characters but poor actresses .

I'm guessing said directors are male and haven't asked their female fans what they want to see. Because, what Feather said. I'm so not interested in large-busted long-legged monster women. Ick. Gimme people that look like people.

So re nobody listening - so raise your voice! I do agree changing things quietly does probably have stronger and longer lasting effects, but people need to know it's an issue in order to consciously create non-sexist content. Good on you for making cool stuff!

Edit:

How's it going Alaxel? I see you're back. I thought we had banned you at least three times now.

Oooh. This makes so much sense now. Thanks Chaos! Edited September 24, 2015 by Delightful

[Quiver]

Random point about changing characters gender, race or sexuality.

(Slightly too late to the conversation, but whatever...)

Yes, the classic versions of characters are more well-known *as* the character in question; Cap is white, Thor is male, Spider-Man is Peter Parker.

But a big part of why characters are designed with particular characteristics is a result of when they were created. There is no way that Steve Rogers was going to be a black hero in the 1940s. Even if there weren't any cultural biases with regards race at the time, there's still a cultural perception of how a hero "should" look. Frankly, Steve Rogers looks boring; put him, Flash Gordon and a half-dozen other male heroes side by side, and you'd find it tough to pick him out of a line-up.

So, if society is changing, so should our opinions of how a hero or heroine should look. A black Captain America isn't just a social experiment; Cap is held as one of the greatest heroes of the MCU. Having a black man fill that role enforces that African-Americans have as much of a role in society as white guys.

(Not coincidently, there's also a black Superman in current comics, so it's not exclusively a Marvel thing).

I've seen the complaint that people should just make new characters for other genders and races...but there is a certain...legitimacy that comes with an established title, that really drives the point home. It's not just that there is a new superheroine who is a Muslim; she's Ms Marvel, a brand which has been around since the 70s/80s. It gets attention for books, sure...but it also reenforced the reality of the world. It isn't "just" a new character that the company is pushing; it's one of the pillars of their universe. When you change one of the foundation blocks of a universe, that reverberates down the line.

(Actually, I've seen that as an interesting point of discussion for the current storylines. The "Old Guard" of Steve, Tony and Thor effectively destroyed their world...so the new universe has a new Cap and a new Thor to put the pieces back together).

The other point I have is that...a lot of the reasons why characters are iconic is because of how long they've been around, and thanks to the audience that becomes familiar with them. My first Batgirl was Cassandra Cain (an Asian woman) and there's a whole generation who connect the name Green Lantern with John Stewart (African-American), rather than Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner. Who is to say that Miles Morales can't become the Spider-Man? If he is published and pushed as the real Spidey -and not just an alternative to Peter- why can't he become who people associate the name "Spider-Man" with? He hasn't been around as long...but he can be built up over time. Heck, he's already iconic enough that he's surviving into the new universe as Spider-Man AND an Avenger!

I hang out in DC these days...but everything I've seen suggests they are pushing Sam as THE Captain America, not just a placeholder for Steve Rogers. That's good storytelling, and can lead to exciting new stories! I loved the Batman Inc era because it was doing the same thing with Batman, and Steve Rogers "Super-Cop" era was a storyline that made sense.

Comic book fans are used to changes being temporary. Characters die and come back to life all the time. Steve Rogers has been replaced as Cap at least three times now. I don't get why people are complaining about it this time, just because the new Captain America is black, because the odds are pretty good Steve will come back one day...

And if he doesn't, it means we get a new, interesting dynamic and status quo. Win-win.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Quiver

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

So, if society is changing, so should our opinions of how a hero or heroine should look. A black Captain America isn't just a social experiment; Cap is held as one of the greatest heroes of the MCU. Having a black man fill that role enforces that African-Americans have as much of a role in society as white guys.

(Not coincidently, there's also a black Superman in current comics, so it's not exclusively a Marvel thing).

I've seen the complaint that people should just make new characters for other genders and races...but there is a certain...legitimacy that comes with an established title, that really drives the point home. It's not just that there is a new superheroine who is a Muslim; she's Ms Marvel, a brand which has been around since the 70s/80s. It gets attention for books, sure...but it also reenforced the reality of the world. It isn't "just" a new character that the company is pushing; it's one of the pillars of their universe. When you change one of the foundation blocks of a universe, that reverberates down the line.

 

Not only that, but here in America, there are some rather….unfortunate stereotypes surrounding African-American men. Namely, thugs and criminals. Like many stereotypes, it's not true, but it's pretty pervasive—movies and TV shows use the "black thug" as practically a stock character (although there are some shows working to break that stereotype, but for the most part producers would rather be lazy). 

 

Captain America isn't just the quintessential Marvel hero; he's the all-American boy. He embodies all the positive associations Americans have  with their own country: he's brave, selfless, kind to everyone, treats women with respect, and does the right thing for no other reason than that it is the right thing to do. Cap is the best America has to offer, and for years, he's been portrayed as a blond-haired, blue-eyed Anglo man. 

 

And now they've cast an African-American man in that role. 

 

That is huge. 

 

Marvel has to know that they're not just putting a minority in an iconic suit to be different. They know what that decision tells the public. They're giving the middle finger to the harmful "black thug" stereotype, and saying that there is no reason why an African-American man can't embody all of the wonderful Mom-and-apple-pie things Americans love about America. 

[ThirdGen]

Dirty Harry is eating a hot dog nearby when a bank gets robbed.  He shootybangs a bunch and the bad guys get killed or captured.  When he gets up to the last one he gives the "Did I fire six shots or only five/Do I feel lucky?" speech for the first time.  It works and the robber drops his gun.

 

Then comes a moment that's not as iconic, but sticks with me as a cultural signpost.  The last robber says, "Hey.  I gots ta know." and Harry pulls the trigger with a click.  It was a bluff.

 

That characterization - the guy is plainly a flat "black thug thug criminal black crime thug."  This was the original Dirty Harry, and this and other aspects would go on to be an unquestioned template for cop movies thereafter.

 

What I'm saying is, you can try to improve things instead of just letting them stagnate for decades.

Edited September 24, 2015 by ThirdGen

[Orlion Blight]

Not only that, but here in America, there are some rather….unfortunate stereotypes surrounding African-American men. Namely, thugs and criminals. Like many stereotypes, it's not true, but it's pretty pervasive—movies and TV shows use the "black thug" as practically a stock character (although there are some shows working to break that stereotype, but for the most part producers would rather be lazy). 

 

Captain America isn't just the quintessential Marvel hero; he's the all-American boy. He embodies all the positive associations Americans have  with their own country: he's brave, selfless, kind to everyone, treats women with respect, and does the right thing for no other reason than that it is the right thing to do. Cap is the best America has to offer, and for years, he's been portrayed as a blond-haired, blue-eyed Anglo man. 

 

And now they've cast an African-American man in that role. 

 

That is huge. 

 

Marvel has to know that they're not just putting a minority in an iconic suit to be different. They know what that decision tells the public. They're giving the middle finger to the harmful "black thug" stereotype, and saying that there is no reason why an African-American man can't embody all of the wonderful Mom-and-apple-pie things Americans love about America. 

 

The new Captain American also helps to focus on a different aspect of what it means to be American, this is done particularly well with the flash-back scenes to Sam Wilson's childhood. They've also retconned Sam Wilson's origins so he is no longer a murderous drug dealer used by the Red Skull to get close to Captain America.

 

It's just somewhat unfortunate he was introduced as Captain America during the AXIS storyline... he was a really angry jerk during that entire time.

[Quiver]

It's just somewhat unfortunate he was introduced as Captain America during the AXIS storyline... he was a really angry jerk during that entire time.

Everything about AXIS was unfortunate. And I say that as the type of person who loves Earth-3 and loves the heck out of mirror universes.

[Eerongal]

*snip*

 

The new Thor is the kind of superheroine that is a female power fantasy, in the same vein as superheroes throughout the years have been male power fantasies. A glorified bikini being passed off as armor isn't empowering. Well designed female characters in awesome armor? Now that's what I'd like to see. 

 

*snip*

 

 

Not that i'm necessarily disagreeing with what you say, feather, but I have seen this idea thrown around a LOT in recent years, and i find the idea of thinking that comic book males = male power fantasy and comic book females = sexualized fantasy is quite incorrect. Males in comic books are sexualized to a similar extent as females, in regards to body types. Clothing wise, women are way more over sexualized, and situationally things may be different.

 

Before anyone goes running for the downvote button, I do recognize that comic books are totally trying to sell themselves to a predominately male fanbase, which is likely the basis for the oversexualization of women, and comic books are probably MUCH more inviting to your typical male than female. So i'm not necessarily on the other side of the fence here, I just disagree heavily with this one argument, and i feel its a terrible argument for this cause.

 

Why you may ask do I feel this is a terrible argument? Well, if the way the majority of male comic book heroes are portrayed is "male power fantasy" and not "over sexualization of men" (which people usually say its absolutely not with this argument), then i find it weird how romance novels, which almost exclusively are targeted at women and not meant as a "male power fantasy" in any way, contain so much male power fantasy instead of, ya know, oversexualized men. Overly muscley men in tight spandex is absolutely over sexualization of the male form, on the same level as is thin waist-ed, big breasted women in spandex.

[Kaymyth]

Alright, as a woman who likes comics, I'll throw my hat in the ring.

 

I like how Frosted Flakes originally said that women wanted to look like the sexy superheroines in spandex. And that male superheroes are catered to be our kind of fanservice, because they're also idealized.

 

...because I'll just come out and say that's garbage.

 

Girls don't want to look like sexy bimbos who break our spines to show off the boobs and butt position. There's a great tumblr called escher girls that showcases these kinds of ridiculous "sexy" poses that are actually just kinda straight up horrifying. IDK, maybe straight guys find that sort of thing attractive. But I find it unsettling, gross, and not more than a little demeaning. If you come in here and tell me that you think girls actually like those kinds of things, I'm going to laugh.

 

I just love how you complained about how Thor is a woman now. Because... go figure, that's exactly the kind of thing that I, as a female comics reader, like to see. The new Thor is the kind of superheroine that is a female power fantasy, in the same vein as superheroes throughout the years have been male power fantasies. A glorified bikini being passed off as armor isn't empowering. Well designed female characters in awesome armor? Now that's what I'd like to see. 

 

I mean... for real. My 17S member description lists that "well-designed female armor" is one of my faves.

 

In order to give you a good idea of what the difference between straight male desires in comic books and straight female desires are, let's imagine what the comics industry might look like if it had been catered to people like me for years and years rather than its traditional target demographic. What do I want to see when I open a comic?

*snipping quote for length*

 

This is one of the most beautiful things that I've ever read.  Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!  (Except for the dude from Jupiter Ascending; he kind of creeped me out. )

 

But....this is where I'm trying to go with some of my cosplays.  I've already created a Zelda: Warrior Princess costume.  (Take Zelda, recast her as Link, costume appropriately.)  Now with working on the Jean Grey, I'm trying to go to a place of, "This is not particularly sexy, but gorram is it ever cool."  Scale mail.  Chain mail.  Leather.  All vital pieces covered.  I'm probably going to overheat in the darned thing, but it'll be worth it.

[ThirdGen]

Of couse, there is also the best armor a female character has ever had:

 

[Eerongal]

Of couse, there is also the best armor a female character has ever had:

 

 

 

Yeah, but you can't REALLY consider that a "progressive" move, IMO, since the only reason she was female in the first place was because at the last minute the designers thought it would be fun to surprise the players with a big reveal at the end that she was actually female.

[ThirdGen]

And isn't it odd that that's one of the most healthy attitudes towards a character's gender and design that we've ever seen in games?  That it's an afterthought!

[Left]

And isn't it odd that that's one of the most healthy attitudes towards a character's gender and design that we've ever seen in games? That it's an afterthought!

Amen!

[Chaos]

Edit: Oooh. This makes so much sense now. Thanks Chaos!

Doesn't it?

Unrelated: I am changing the title of this thread because having that misspelled "discussion" as "discution" hurts me inside.

[Eerongal]

Doesn't it?

Unrelated: I am changing the title of this thread because having that misspelled "discussion" as "discution" hurts me inside.

 

You heard it here first, people. Typos wither away at chaos' soul and ravage his body. Show him no quarter.

[ThirdGen]

Doesn't it?

Unrelated: I am changing the title of this thread because having that misspelled "discussion" as "discution" hurts me inside.

 

Hah!  I've been waiting for that!  17th Shard: forums so nice they won't mention this until 10 pages in!

[Chaos]

You heard it here first, people. Typos wither away at chaos' soul and ravage his body. Show him no quarter.

Hmmm, where's my banhammer? Oh there it is!

 

Hah!  I've been waiting for that!  17th Shard: forums so nice they won't mention this until 10 pages in!

slkfhg;soenahreubvjk

[Eerongal]

Hmmm, where's my banhammer? Oh there it is!

 

 

Don't worry, people, we all know chaos loves my witty antics and otherwordly charisma way too much, and would never ban eero. You can rest assured that he will survive this day.

[Kaymyth]

Doesn't it?

Unrelated: I am changing the title of this thread because having that misspelled "discussion" as "discution" hurts me inside.

 

Thank you, dear gods, THANK YOU SO MUCH!

[Mailliw73]

Agreed, that's been bothering me all along.

[Chaos]

Please feel free to PM mods or admins if that happens on other topics!