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The Recreance: More thoughts and a theory (***SPOILERS***)


The Count

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I know, I know... another thread about why the Radiants quit!

 

 Still I was reading This and had some more thought and ideas I wanted to share and did not really want to resurrect a year old thread (my necromancy is not that strong!)

 

So Lets start with the facts:

 

Fact 1: The Radiants did not quit in response to the actions of the Heralds (WOB on this)

Fact 2: The Radiants gave up their shards to ordinary soldiers

Fact 3: Common perception is that the Knights Radiant were corrupt.

Fact 4: The Knights Radiant were around when The Heralds did their thing in the prelude.

Fact 5: The Knights Radiant were fighting a war against 'devils' when they gave up their shards.

Fact 6: There seem to have been no surgebinders at all in the years between the Recreance and WoK.

 

Most common theories for them giving up their shards are the following:

 

Theory 1: They found out that Honor had died and gave up in despair

Theory 2: They discovered that the Heralds lied to them so gave up in despair

Theory 3: They found out their blades / themselves were corrupted by Odium so quit.

Theory 4: They realize they were being used to fight mundane wars and so quit.

Theory 5: They were coerced by someone in some way.

 

There are more theories out there but these seem to be the favorites.

 

Theory 1:  I am not a fan of this one. I think Dalinar's visions show that Honor was finally splintered (or at least that the splintering was completed) after the Day of Recreance. In Dalinar's final vision of the Everstorm, Tanavast says openly that it is only a possible future but talks about the other visions as if they are history. Ergo Honor was witness to the Knights giving up their Shards.

 

Theory 2: WoB kind of rules this one out. Even then though, if the Knights found out that th Heralds lied about the victory over the voidbringers. Surely that would make them more likely to continue so that they can fight in the next Desolation.

 

The concept of giving up in despair is also quite contrary to the first ideal. Strength before weakness and all that.

 

Theory 3: Corrupted Blades, not a fan. If I were in possession of an incredibly powerful corrupted artifact, I would hide it away. I would definitely not give it to a bunch of people who would have no respect for its power.

 

I could get behind the idea that the Knights themselves were corrupted in some way but their weapons were not, this at least gives an incentive to give away the weapons so that they cannot use them for evil. But then wouldn't you choose who to give it to? Someone who you thought would at least respect its power?

 

Theory 4: More in favor of this one that those above. I certainly think the KR were fighting mundane wars by the end but if they realized this was not their calling then why not just stop doing it? Doesn't seem like a strong enough reason to give up the Shards.

 

Theory 5: Quiet plausible but impossible to guess who or what coerced them and what they threatened them with. it makes no sense if it was Odium since he could not threaten anything worse than the desolations ( the whole point of the KR in the first place) so it would have to have been something else. Could Honor have asked them to do it? Now that would be interesting......

 

 

So where does that leave us:

 

I Think that two things led to the Day of Recreance:

 

Firstly, the Knights Radiant were getting corrupt (in the mundane sense rather than Shardic / Odium sense). Maybe just the leaders, maybe more but they became arrogant and greedy and started behaving a bit like mercenaries. Still going through the motions of upholding the ideals but becoming more ritualistic about it (similar to the Knights Templar in Europe).

 

Secondly, I think Honor knew he was dying and slowly being broken by Odium.

 

My Theory is this:

 

After the events of the prelude, Honor was immediately under attack by Odium. Slowly he was being broken and was dying and this corresponded to the KR becoming more decadent and arrogant in their power as Honor's influence dwindled.

 

During this time, Honor set about trying to make sure that there was at least a slim hope for the future and made the visions.

 

As he saw what was becoming of the Knights he knew that they would eventually become more and more corrupt. Before he finally died, he told the KR to give up their power for the good of mankind.

 

I would further speculate that Honor did not mean for The KR to give their shards to the people. Maybe by then the Knights had started to think of the shards as the symbols of their power and so interpreted Honor's instructions badly.

 

Shortly after this, the splintering of Honor was complete.

 

So there we have it, my theory as to the reason for the Day of Recreance. No evidence of course (when do I have any evidence for my wild theories!)

 

But I think it fit what we know. Feel free to pick holes and discuss as you will, it is probably wrong anyway.

 

Peace.

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Personally, since everything I've read seems to point to the fact that the last desolation on Roshar was the one when the Heralds quit, I think the Radiants quit at the same time. It's just an assumption based on the various quotes, about how "the gods/heralds" lied about the last desolation being the "last" one, and how the Heralds always appeared to help when a desolation occurred.

 

The heralds appeared at Nohadon's desolation (based on what he said to Dalinar), and they always appear when a desolation is underway. The radiants were apparently made after Nohadon's time and I assume that the Heralds also showed up for them, but the clincher is how Taln showed up at the end of WoK.

 

If the Heralds always show up when a desolation is occurring, then I'm guessing that this current desolation is the first one since the Heralds quit, because this is the first time that only "one" herald has shown up to a desolation. If Taln had been the only one to show up the previous desolation, it would have been a well known fact, and people would be praying to him instead of Jezrien or Kelek/Kalak.

 

Edit: This is all based on the fact that I assume the Radiants existed to fight in desolations, and since I also assume that this is Taln's first appearance since the beginning of his solo torment, It makes sense that the Heralds and Radiants quit at the end of the so-called "last" desolation.

Edited by Fistsofrage
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Personally, since everything I've read seems to point to the fact that the last desolation on Roshar was the one when the Heralds quit, I think the Radiants quit at the same time. It's just an assumption based on the various quotes, about how "the gods/heralds" lied about the last desolation being the "last" one, and how the Heralds always appeared to help when a desolation occurred.

 

The heralds appeared at Nohadon's desolation (based on what he said to Dalinar), and they always appear when a desolation is underway. The radiants were apparently made after Nohadon's time and I assume that the Heralds also showed up for them, but the clincher is how Taln showed up at the end of WoK.

 

If the Heralds always show up when a desolation is occurring, then I'm guessing that this current desolation is the first one since the Heralds quit, because this is the first time that only "one" herald has shown up to a desolation. If Taln had been the only one to show up the previous desolation, it would have been a well known fact, and people would be praying to him instead of Jezrien or Kelek/Kalak.

 

Edit: This is all based on the fact that I assume the Radiants existed to fight in desolations, and since I also assume that this is Taln's first appearance since the beginning of his solo torment, It makes sense that the Heralds and Radiants quit at the end of the so-called "last" desolation.

 

There is a gap inbetween the two events. The Recreance is listed as happening after the Last Desolation, so even if it was only a few decades, it was enough time that people separated the two events when they were writing histories. Personally I think it was probably a few centuries.

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There is a gap inbetween the two events. The Recreance is listed as happening after the Last Desolation, so even if it was only a few decades, it was enough time that people separated the two events when they were writing histories. Personally I think it was probably a few centuries.

If that is the case, then I still think it was some lingering result of the last desolation that took awhile to come into effect. They obviously all gave up for some reason, and we have very little information with which to make a guess.

You could say that they all converted to cultivation's way of thinking and gave up fighting like the Shin, or they FINALLY realized what was done to Taln and gave up in disgust. It could be too many things :( but they definitely had a good reason.

Edit: the only reason I assumed they quit after the last desolation was because they seemed to be coming back from a battle when they quit.

Edited by Fistsofrage
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Personally, since everything I've read seems to point to the fact that the last desolation on Roshar was the one when the Heralds quit, I think the Radiants quit at the same time. It's just an assumption based on the various quotes, about how "the gods/heralds" lied about the last desolation being the "last" one, and how the Heralds always appeared to help when a desolation occurred.

 

See Fact 1 in my OP. Brandon has said that the Radiants did not quit in response to the Heralds actions, but due to something else. I am sure there is a quote somewhere....

 

Even if we did not have this from Brandon, the actions of the Radiants make no sense if they just decided to quit.

 

If they just decided to quit because the Heralds said they won, then why do they give up the shards to the people? This would an extraordinary final act, totally irresponsible and not at all in keeping with the oaths of the orders.

 

 

The heralds appeared at Nohadon's desolation (based on what he said to Dalinar), and they always appear when a desolation is underway. The radiants were apparently made after Nohadon's time and I assume that the Heralds also showed up for them, but the clincher is how Taln showed up at the end of WoK.

 

Well the desolation that had just ended in the Prelude was definitely the final one before the actions of the book, and from the conversation between Kelek and Jezrien, there were certainly Knights Radiant around then as well.

 

 

Edit: the only reason I assumed they quit after the last desolation was because they seemed to be coming back from a battle when they quit.

 

I do not think it was a desolation they were returning from. The enemy are described as 'devils'... given the large numnber of non humans on Roshar, that term could mean any number of things.

 

As Vortaan pointed out, it was probably centuries between the prelude and the Recreance.  Enough time for the weaponry to evolve in to steel blades and stone keeps to be built.

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Well they were obviously depressed about something since they gave up all that power and responsibility. We get excited when dalinar and kaladin abandon shardblades, but this is on a way higher scale.

Edit: usually nothing sort of the pain of losing a loved one, or having the crux of your beliefs turn out to be a lie, could cause people to give up such power. Or maybe they were just tired of fighting.

Edited by Fistsofrage
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Well they were obviously depressed about something since they gave up all that power and responsibility. We get excited when dalinar and kaladin abandon shardblades, but this is on a way higher scale.

Edit: usually nothing sort of the pain of losing a loved one, or having the crux of your beliefs turn out to be a lie, could cause people to give up such power. Or maybe they were just tired of fighting.

 

Agreed, but there is giving up the shards, and then there is giving those shards (some of the most powerful and destuctive arifacts on the planet) to a bunch of ignorant peasants.

 

If they were just tired of fighting, they could've  just stopped, hidden their shards away and devoted their life to peace or knitting or whatever.

 

Why give the shards up in the way that they did?

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Well the Heralds had to leave their Blades in order to break the Oathpact. At least, that's what was strongly suggested in the prelude.

 

There was probably far longer of a time period between the last desolation and the Recreance. Ragged tanned skins and bronze weapons in the prelude. Bronze armor and steel weapons at the Recreance, which Dalinar thought appeared hasty and just thrown together, so that stuff had probably been around a while anyways.

 

Recreance has been investigated to death. It's hard to know at this point, but seems to me like (and most people don't share this opinion) Honor died and the Radiants just went downhill from there. Eventually screwing up their interpretation of Honor and resigning. (Similar to Derethil's story from Hoid)

 

Urithiru was abandoned long before the Radiants fell. And apparently they were growing corrupt before Urithiru was abandoned.

 

Ch. 2 epigraph


Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

 

I think the Radiants lost hope at some point and came to conclusion they were misinterpreting the Honor that gave them their power. (Derethil)

 

I made a thread about all this a while ago that goes into some depth, but it's mainly on Honor being dead before the Reacreance. Just nearly impossible to know at this point what happened to the Radiants of old.

 

edit: forgot something

Edited by Elwynn
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There is a great theory out there about the Parshmen:

The Radiants seem to be protecting a group of people during war times. This group somehow managed to enslave the parshmen, and the Radiants could no longer Honorably support their cause. They also couldn't Honorably abandon them to certain death in the current war, so they gave them shardblades to survive it without the aid of the Radiants.

My ideas on this compare the Parshendi to Koloss. Something about spiking the humans and making them Koloss allowed Ruin to violate their will and control them. I bet Odium gave the Parshendi some similar enhancement that gives them extra abilities (telepathy, transformation, strength etc) but left them vulnerable to His control.

Now as we know, Allomancy can also control Koloss. I bet someone figured out how to use surges or fabrials to enslave the Parshendi and create Parshmen. I also remember reading a theory about using the stone Gavilar gave to Szeth to bind the voidbringers and create Parshmen out of them.

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There is a great theory out there about the Parshmen:

The Radiants seem to be protecting a group of people during war times. This group somehow managed to enslave the parshmen, and the Radiants could no longer Honorably support their cause. They also couldn't Honorably abandon them to certain death in the current war, so they gave them shardblades to survive it without the aid of the Radiants.

My ideas on this compare the Parshendi to Koloss. Something about spiking the humans and making them Koloss allowed Ruin to violate their will and control them. I bet Odium gave the Parshendi some similar enhancement that gives them extra abilities (telepathy, transformation, strength etc) but left them vulnerable to His control.

Now as we know, Allomancy can also control Koloss. I bet someone figured out how to use surges or fabrials to enslave the Parshendi and create Parshmen. I also remember reading a theory about using the stone Gavilar gave to Szeth to bind the voidbringers and create Parshmen out of them.

 

You know, I could see this happening. Also, for the spoiler,

 

I totally agree. I think that the Parshendi are not inherently bad, but that they can be forced by Odium, just as the koloss

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You know, I could see this happening. Also, for the spoiler,

 

I totally agree. I think that the Parshendi are not inherently bad, but that they can be forced by Odium, just as the koloss

Probably why the Parshendi will do anything to prevent the resurrection of their "gods"...

Edited by Fistsofrage
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  • 4 weeks later...

I think the Radiants quit in the middle of a battle since at Feverstone Keep one of the men says "They should be fighting the devils on the front line" (emphasis mine). Of course, that could be just a comment about a enemy not the enemy. 

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I am going to make the point that honor could have died anywhere between the previous Desolation to Dalinar's visions, this is because honor says 'Most of these visions I have observed directly.'(emphasis is mine and very rough quote) Also Dalinar has had visions we have not seen.

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There are a couple of points about Dalinar's Day of Recreance vision that have stuck with me.  The first is that Dalinar only witnesses two orders giving up their shards.  The Windrunners and the Stonewarders.  He also sees a bunch of other soldiers off in the distance that may or may not be the rest of the Radiants.

 

I'm personally kind of skeptical about the corruption thing.  I can see some Radiant's becoming corrupted but all of them?

 

I have a kind of half formed hypothesis at the moment on the issue.  I'll not dignify it with the term "theory" since it still has big gaping holes.

 

What if the Radiants became aware of something that required that they withdraw from humanity.  Something so important that honor demanded it despite that they would effectively be abandoning humanity by doing so.  This would explain why all the Radiants would participate.

 

Now why would just the Windrunners and Stonewarders be the only ones to make a public show of abandoning their shards and one would assume also their powers.  Well we know that all the oaths after the first is different for each order.  The Stonewarder oaths are still unknown but we know the second oath for WIndrunners is "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves."

 

I suspect that whatever reason caused the Radiants as a whole to abandon humanity such abandonment specifically went against the oaths of the Windrunners and Stonewarders.  In essence putting those two orders in a bit of a catch-22 situation.  The only solution being to renounce their order specific oaths.

 

I feel like were trying to figure out a hundred piece puzzle and we only have ten pieces.

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I don't know if anyone else has caught this quote but:

 

“Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?”
—Collected on the second day of Kakash, year 1171, five seconds before death. Subject was a lighteyed woman in her third decade.
 
Is it me or does it directly say the Almighty forsook the Radiants?
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Now why would just the Windrunners and Stonewarders be the only ones to make a public show of abandoning their shards and one would assume also their powers.  Well we know that all the oaths after the first is different for each order.  The Stonewarder oaths are still unknown but we know the second oath for WIndrunners is "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves."

So even though the Windrunners are quitting, by leaving the weapons and armor behind, they are keeping the second oath. With the Shardblades and Shardplate those left behind can protect themselves.  Maybe the Stonewarders have a comparable oath that they can only fulfill by abandoning their weapons similarly.  The other eight orders may have similar equipment but not oaths that constrain them similarly, so they could do something else with their weapons and armor.  Is this what you are implying?  I like it!

 

Is it me or does it directly say the Almighty forsook the Radiants?

They apparently feel forsaken.  It has been suggested that this is after Tanavast/Honor was killed. 

Edited by hoser
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Do we not have to differentiate between the Shard (Honor) and the person who's holding it (Tanavast). It maybe that Tanavast died. But ...

 

Honor didn't "die", he was Splintered, so "parts" of Honor are still around. 

 

 

 

Was Honor Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

Was Honor Splintered? ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone really knows their stuff.

 

source 

 

And if Honorspren are Splinters of Honor (I remember that I saw that but it was told that that interview/q&a isn't transcribed yet), then Splinters of Honor had been around long before Honor presumably died and he freely gave them away. Nohadon told Dalinar about Honorspren. [TWoK Ch. 60] and I'm fairly sure that "we" believe that Honor's Shattering presumably hadn't been before the Recreance. 

 

Otherwise -- if Honor's Splinters were a result of his Shattering/being Splintered by Odium -- the only conclusion would be that Honor was Shattered long, very long ago. Possibly before the Heralds were put on their task (or: the Heralds were put on their task as a result of the Shattering/Splintering of Honor. 

 

Ha! One of my beloved speculations. ... What do you all think? 

 

 

 

 

 

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Honorspren are manifestations of the Cognitive concept of honor (not Honor); just as all Spren are Physical manifestations of the Cognitive views of various happenings, activities and concepts. Not saying they aren't Splinters, but there's no real confirmation that they are.

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It's all-but-confirmed.

 

From reddit:

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

-Windrunner17

Brandon: It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

 

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

 

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

 

That said there are different types of spren.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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"Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?”

"Eli,Eli,lama sabachthani." I do think this relates to the Almighty being splintered. One of the more poignant quotes in the book. As to how this relates to the recreance I do not know, but I suspect Honor was splintered long before.  I can't prove honor splintered before the Recreance. I also can't prove he splintered after it. 

 

Just some thoughts to keep in mind about the timing of Honor's Splintering:  Tanavast and Honor can exist separately. Some of the visions happened after Tanavasts death. Highstorms occur during the time of the Visions. 

 

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?
-Windrunner17
 
Brandon: It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel. Source

 

Hrm, this implies that there IS a controlling entity on Roshar. . . 

Edited by Isomere
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The other eight orders may have similar equipment but not oaths that constrain them similarly, so they could do something else with their weapons and armor.  Is this what you are implying?  I like it!

Actually I was thinking something more like for the Windrunners and Stonewarders to participate in this abandonment they would have to renounce their oaths and by extension their powers.  After all in the Windrunners case "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" pretty much leaves abandonment as a non-option.  Though leaving their shards for others to use may also be along the same lines.

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Hrm, this implies that there IS a controlling entity on Roshar. . . 

 

Eh, kind of.  Brandon has also referred to seons/skaze and spren as "release valves"  for the power and about how there aren't enough seons/skaze to diffuse the build up of energy, there are however,plenty of spren on Roshar to serve the purpose.

 

Let's say each seon and spren can control a certain part of their shard's power, there is a limited number of seons so therefore only a small part of Devotions's power is controlled.  There are however many more spren so the bulk of Honor's power is controlled.

 

Does that make sense?  I think I did a poor job of explaining that...

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Weiry, I completely agree. Spren function as a release valve. "Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle." I'm just wondering if the other part of the puzzle requires a conscious mind controlling the fragments. Heralds/Radiants would fit the bill. Cultivation could be doing it. Maby it's indirectly controlled by a time-traveling space-alien from Yolen...

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