Weight has nothing to do with allomantic Push/pull strength.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

In your example with Wax And The Boulder, are you saying that he's just standing there without moving, and changing his weight?

[Duskshard]

He's just standing there to start with until he decreases his weight to a point that the weight of the boulder starts to force him back, and as he get lighter still he gets thrown back faster and faster without increasing the strength of his allomantic push.

 

What's important is the weight difference between you and the object you're trying to move. If your weight is greater, then the difference between you and the object will be applied to the object. If your weight is less than the object then the difference will be applied against you.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

What's important is the weight difference between you and the object you're trying to move. If your weight is greater, then the difference between you and the object will be applied to the object. If your weight is less than the object then the difference will be applied against you.

 

The action/reaction obeys Newton and always applies equally in both directions.

[Duskshard]

I don't see what you're arguing here, how did what I say not tie in with action and reaction? 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't see what you're arguing here, how did what I say not tie in with action and reaction? 

Okay, it seemed like you were saying it was a binary 'one moves, or the other moves'. 

 

So if Wax decides to weigh a hundred times as much, will you agree that he can push the boulder with a hundred times the amount of force that he could without his metalminds?

[Duskshard]

Okay, it seemed like you were saying it was a binary 'one moves, or the other moves'. 

 

So if Wax decides to weigh a hundred times as much, will you agree that he can push the boulder with a hundred times the amount of force that he could without his metalminds?

 

Yes I agree with that, the difference in weight will be applied to the boulder and it would be thrown. I haven't been arguing otherwise.

 

Would you agree that if Wax made himself half the weight of another coin shot and they both pushed off the boulder, Wax would accelerate twice as fast as the other coin shot, assuming they both had the same allomantic strength. 

Edited July 6, 2013 by Duskshard

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Yes I agree with that, the difference in weight will be applied to the boulder and it would be thrown. I haven't been arguing otherwise.

 

Ah, okay, then you've been agreeing with me that your weight *does* influence how strong your pushes and pulls are.

 

Would you agree that if Wax made himself half the weight of another coin shot and they both pushed off the boulder, Wax would accelerate twice as fast as the other coin shot, assuming they both had the same allomantic strength.

He'd have less weight, so his pushes are weaker, correct?  So instead of pushing against a boulder with 100% he'd be pushing with 50%, which means the boulder is going to only feel that much. 

If the boulder is reacting with 50%, and he weighs 50%, he should get the same acceleration, give or take.  Depends how allomantic power and your mass stack - if it's a strict multiplier then your maximum takeoff speed is based solely off allomantic power.  If it's in some way additive, then you'd get way faster at very low weights, since it'd be (base power + some tiny number)/(some tiny number) instead of base power*(some tiny number)/(some tiny number).

 

Feru weight is also weird in a few respects, since it doesn't make you super weak when storing it (wax is light on his feet when storing, which is why he always goes around at 75%), but gives you enough strength to stand up when tapping.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Duskshard]

Ah, okay, then you've been agreeing with me that your weight *does* influence how strong your pushes and pulls are.

 

Only when you're pushing on objects that weight less that you.

 

He'd have less weight, so his pushes are weaker, correct?  So instead of pushing against a boulder with 100% he'd be pushing with 50%, which means the boulder is going to only feel that much. 

If the boulder is reacting with 50%, and he weighs 50%, he should get the same acceleration, give or take.  Depends how allomantic power and your mass stack - if it's a strict multiplier then your maximum takeoff speed is based solely off allomantic power.  If it's in some way additive, then you'd get way faster at very low weights, since it'd be (base power + some tiny number)/(some tiny number) instead of base power*(some tiny number)/(some tiny number).

 

 

No, see this is the point I've being arguing. 

 

When the object you're pushing off is heavier than you are then what you're pushing is your own weight. So the lighter you are the easier you're moved and the faster you are launched away from the object. 

 

What would accelerate away from you faster, a coin or bike? 

Edited July 6, 2013 by Duskshard

[Phantom Monstrosity]

When the object you're pushing off is heavier than you are then what you're pushing is your own weight. So the lighter you are the easier you're moved and the faster you are launched away from the object.

But your 'own weight' is lower, so you've got less to push against the object with.

 

 

Of course, iron feruchemy seems a little nonsymmetrical in how it handles the necessary secondary strength it provides.  It seems like it gives you extra strength, but it scales slightly less than you'd need to just walk around normally - wax has trouble holding up his gun when at super weight, but doesn't have any trouble at light weight.  Despite how you get the ability to hold up five times your weight standing when tapping iron, you get more agile when storing into iron. 

 

If allomantic strength scales like physical strength when you use weight, that would mean that when storing you'd become a little faster, but when storing 50% you'd be like... 160% of normal speed, not 200%

Edited July 6, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Duskshard]

No, because your weight does't effect your allomantic strength, and you're not pushing the object, you're being pushed away from the object, and the weight you're pushing away from the object is your own. So you'll be pushed away harder if you weigh less than if you were heavier.

 

OK imagine it this way, you're Wax and you increase your weight to that of a building. You drop a coin on the ground and you push off it vertically. Now because the coin is on the ground the weight you're pushing against is the weight of the world. So the weight Wax has to lift of the ground is the weight of a building. Are you really saying that he would push off the ground easier and faster at that weight than if his weight was normal body weight?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

... okay, if I understand properly, you just agreed with me on 'if you push a boulder while weighing 100x normal, you push it 100x as hard'.

 

 

So let's say you aren't using any weight manipulation.  You weigh 100 kg.  You're pushing down on the boulder with enough force to exactly counter gravity - 1kN.  You float, the boulder doesn't shatter, everything is chill.

 

Acceleration  = Force / mass.  So your acceleration from allomancy is 1 kN/100 kg =10 m/s^2.  Equal to gravity, everything is cool.

 

Now let's say you tap iron and weigh 100x normal.  You now have a mass of 10,000 kg.  You just agreed that under those circumstances 'he can push the boulder with a hundred times the amount of force that he could without his metalminds'.  So you push against the boulder with 100kN.  (The boulder probably would shatter, just like the vanisher hideout did, but assume it's strong).  The reaction (via newton's third law), is also going to be 100kN, correct?  That's a huge amount of force - but you now weigh 10,000 kg. 

 

Acceleration  = Force / mass.  So your acceleration from allomancy is 100 kN/10,000 kg =10 m/s^2.  Equal to gravity, you're still floating in place.

[Duskshard]

... okay, if I understand properly, you just agreed with me on 'if you push a boulder while weighing 100x normal, you push it 100x as hard'.

 

 

So let's say you aren't using any weight manipulation.  You weigh 100 kg.  You're pushing down on the boulder with enough force to exactly counter gravity - 1kN.  You float, the boulder doesn't shatter, everything is chill.

 

Acceleration  = Force / mass.  So your acceleration from allomancy is 1 kN/100 kg =10 m/s^2.  Equal to gravity, everything is cool.

 

Now let's say you tap iron and weigh 100x normal.  You now have a mass of 10,000 kg.  You just agreed that under those circumstances 'he can push the boulder with a hundred times the amount of force that he could without his metalminds'.  So you push against the boulder with 100kN.  (The boulder probably would shatter, just like the vanisher hideout did, but assume it's strong).  The reaction (via newton's third law), is also going to be 100kN, correct?  That's a huge amount of force - but you now weigh 10,000 kg. 

 

Acceleration  = Force / mass.  So your acceleration from allomancy is 100 kN/10,000 kg =10 m/s^2.  Equal to gravity, you're still floating in place.

 

When you push the boulder while weighing 100x the normal, you're push isn't 100x stronger. It's the strength of the allomantic push plus the difference in weight between you and the boulder. So if at 100x you weigh a good bit more than the boulder then you'll throw the boulder with the force of your allomancy, the closer you are in weight to the boulder less you're able to push it and the more it pushes you back.

 

In your example you're not pushing against the weight of the boulder, you're pushing against the weight of the world. Since that weighs quite a bit more than 10,000 kg you don't stand a chance of moving it, so you have to move instead. So the weight you have to lift of the ground is 10,000 kg against gravity. Now I think it's a lot easier to push 50 kg against gravity, rather than 10,000 kg. 

[Duskshard]

Blast , he thought. Well, he was lucky to even find steris. He pushes lightly of the nails in the floor, propelling the two of them towards the ceiling. As they approached, he took advantage of the fact that it didn't matter how heavy an object was when it came to falling. All objects fell at the same rate. That means that increasing his weight manyfold would not affect his motion.

      Raising his shotgun, he shot a concentrated blast of pellets into the ceiling. Then he pushed on them sharply, his increased weight meaning the push didn't really move him that much--just as when he was lighter a push affected him greatly.

      The result was he continued his momentum upward--but his push blasted a hole in the ceiling. He made himself incredibly light and pushed more strongly off the nails below. The two of them shot up through the hole in he'd made propelled some forty feet in the air. He spun in the night, mist coat tassels splaying outward, smoking shotgun clutched tightly in one arm, steris in the other. Bullets from below left streaks  in the mist as it swirled around them.

      Steris gasped, clinging to him. Wax drew every bit of weight he had left, draining his metal minds completely. That was hundreds upon hundreds of hours of weight, enough to make him crush paving stones if he tried to walk on them. In a strange way feruchemy, he didn't grow more dense-- bullets would still cut easily through him if they hit. But with this incredible conflux of weight, his ability to push grew incredible.

      He used that weight to push down with everything he had. There were numerous lines of metal below. nails Doorknobs. Guns. Personal effects.

      The building trembled, then undulated, then ripped apart as every nail in its frame was driven downward as if propelled by a rotary gun. There was an enormous crash. The building was crushed down into the railway tunnel on top of which it had been built.

      The weight was gone from him in an instant, compounded upon itself in that moment, his metalminds drained all at once. Wax let gravity take him, and he dropped through the mists, steris clinging to him.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Yes, the scaling isn't in perfect lockstep with with your mass.  Just like your physical strength.  And, just like how you always have physical strength to stand, you should always have enough allomantic strength to hover.

 

See, his ability to push increases with weight.  Explicitly.  He's got enough force in his steelpushes to crush a building.

"That was hundreds upon hundreds of hours of weight, enough to make him crush paving stones if he tried to walk on them. In a strange way feruchemy, he didn't grow more dense-- bullets would still cut easily through him if they hit. But with this incredible conflux of weight, his ability to push grew incredible."

Edited July 7, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Cheese Ninja]

I thought that trick only worked because he was Pushing down from above while being extremely massive.  If he'd been Pushing from the side or below while Tapping weight, it would have been a much more minor boost, if any boost at all.  Mainly it seems like the Tapping/Filling is only used to decide if he moves or the object(s) that he's Pushing moves.

[Duskshard]

Yes, the scaling isn't in perfect lockstep with with your mass.  Just like your physical strength.  And, just like how you always have physical strength to stand, you should always have enough allomantic strength to hover.

 

See, his ability to push increases with weight.  Explicitly.  He's got enough force in his steelpushes to crush a building.

 

We both agree that increasing weight enhances the ability to steel push, what we don't seem to agree upon is the way it's enhanced. You seem to think that increasing your weight by multiples increases the power of your push by the same, or there a bouts. While I think the force of the allomantic push is the same and what changes is the weight being thrown. Imagine throwing a stone and a building away from you with the same force, whoever gets hit by the stone would be badly hurt, possibly killed, but whatever got hit by the building would be devastated,

 

Both of our viewpoints are valid explanations for the devastating effect of Wax's weight enhanced push on the hideout.

 

Where our viewpoints disagree is how weight effects a push when you're pushing yourself away from an object.

 

You maintain that being heavier gives you greater power to push off objects with greater force.

 

I maintain that his pushes have a greater effect on him when he's lighter.

 

I showed that this was true in the quote "Just as when he was lighter a push effected him greatly" and then he put this into practice by making himself lighter while holding Steris and pushing them up and out of the hideout some forty feet in the air. "He made himself incredibly light and pushed more strongly off the nails below. The two of them shot up through the hole he'd made propelled some forty feet in the air" 

 

Now if making himself heavier gave him more power to push himself, then that's what he would of done here. He not only had to lift himself, but Steris as well, so more pushing power would be ideal. What he does instead is make himself lighter. This seems to support my viewpoint that his allomancy is more effective at moving him around when he's lighter. 

Edited July 7, 2013 by Duskshard

[Satsuoni]

Um.. Duskshard, you seem to be confusing terminology. First, weight, according to physics, *is* force. Mass isn't. Second, if I throw a building with the same *force* as a stone, it will be accelerated much less, with less resulting velocity, and from personal experience (earthquake) I can tell that being hit by slowly moving building is much less unpleasant than by something lighter thrown by the same force with higher resulting velocity (like a book) - mainly because a building only moved a few centimeters from side to side, and human body isn't rigid.

Also, in your example in earlier posts, with two cars - as long as both cars have the same traction, and apply the same force in opposite directions, neither would move, regardless of respective weights.

 

Also, when pushing on something Allomantically you get pushed away, regardless of your weight, even if a little - action and reaction, though it would have been more noticeable without friction.

[Duskshard]

When referring to force, I've been talking about the power of an allomantic push.

 

When I refer to weight, I'm referring the weight being thrown around by the power of the allomantic push.

 

So if you steel pushed a coin it would zip away, now if you went to push on a car and you increased your weight so that the difference in weight between you and the car was the same as the difference between you and the coin when you pushed that. Would the car not zip away at the same speed as the coin did?

 

I haven't studied physics, and maybe I'm just stupid, but I would of thought that if you pushed against two different sized objects with the same allomantc strength and the same weight difference between you and both objects then they would both speed away at the same velocity.

 

If my understanding is wrong, how would physics explain why Wax's pushes effect him more greatly when he's lighter?   

[Satsuoni]

Err, that is quite confusing. So by force you mean Allomantic Strength. What is "throwing weight around" I do not dare guess.

 

So if you steel pushed a coin it would zip away, now if you went to push on a car and you increased your weight so that the difference in weight between you and the car was the same as the difference between you and the coin when you pushed that. Would the car not zip away at the same speed as the coin did?

No, I am quite sure not, actually. Otherwise, an Allomancer braced against Earth would have been able to Push a small mountain. There is a definite upper limit on the amount of force produced.

 

I haven't studied physics, and maybe I'm just stupid, but I would of thought that if you pushed against two different sized objects with the same allomantc strength and the same weight difference between you and both objects then they would both speed away at the same velocity.

 

If my understanding is wrong, how would physics explain why Wax's pushes effect him more greatly when he's lighter?   

Well, that is easy - acceleration is force divided by mass, so when mass goes down, acceleration goes up, and applied over the same time it would result in greater velocity with the constant (mass-independent) force ( effect bounded by the distance).

[Duskshard]

No, I am quite sure not, actually. Otherwise, an Allomancer braced against Earth would have been able to Push a small mountain. There is a definite upper limit on the amount of force produced.

If you braced yourself against the earth and pushed on a mountain, you wouldn't be assuming the weight of the earth to push that against the mountain. You would be pushing against two objects whose weight far exceeds your own and would be crushed between them.

 

I agree there is an upper limit. A limit based of a persons allomantic strength and the difference in weight between the person doing the pushing and the object their pushing against.

 

 Well, that is easy - acceleration is force divided by mass, so when mass goes down, acceleration goes up, and applied over the same time it would result in greater velocity with the constant (mass-independent) force ( effect bounded by the distance).

 

Well that's what I've been saying all along, that the lighter you are the faster you accelerate, and physics apparently backs me up. Phantom seemed to be arguing the opposite on that point, that being lighter would give you less acceleration.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Duskshard

[Satsuoni]

If you braced yourself against the earth and pushed on a mountain, you wouldn't be assuming the weight of the earth to push that against the mountain. You would be pushing against two objects whose weight far exceeds your own and would be crushed between them.

And yet when the same allomancer is pushing against the coin on the ground, you say the the coin assumes the weight of the earth. Why the difference? Why doesn't the allomancer assume the weight of the Earth but coin does? Let us assume for the moment that Allomancer burns enough Pewter to survive the crushing forces, so that "Allomancer is now pancake" wouldn't enter into account.

 

I agree there is an upper limit. A limit based of a persons allomantic strength and the difference in weight between the person doing the pushing and the object their pushing against.

What if the weights are the same? Neither object moves (since weight difference is exactly zero)?

 

Well that's what I've been saying all along, that the lighter you are the faster you accelerate, and physics apparently backs me up. Phantom seemed to be arguing the opposite on that point, that being lighter would give you less acceleration.

Well, yes, but the acceleration is completely independent from the weight or mass of the other object, and both objects always accelerate away from each other (even earth moves slightly when you jump). Also, the force applied to both objects is always equal. So there is no bias towards heavier/lighter object in terms of force applied.

[Duskshard]

And yet when the same allomancer is pushing against the coin on the ground, you say the the coin assumes the weight of the earth. Why the difference? Why doesn't the allomancer assume the weight of the Earth but coin does? Let us assume for the moment that Allomancer burns enough Pewter to survive the crushing forces, so that "Allomancer is now pancake" wouldn't enter into account.

 

No, what I'm saying in a scenario like that is that because the coin is on the ground and you can't push the earth away, you instead push yourself away, so the lighter you are the faster you push yourself away.

 

 What if the weights are the same? Neither object moves (since weight difference is exactly zero)?

No, if both objects weight the same then both are thrown back equally, the distance thrown back would be dependent upon the allomantic strength of the push between the two objects. 

 

Well, yes, but the acceleration is completely independent from the weight or mass of the other object, and both objects always accelerate away from each other (even earth moves slightly when you jump). Also, the force applied to both objects is always equal. So there is no bias towards heavier/lighter object in terms of force applied.

 

I see what you're saying here, at least I think I do, but what I was trying to describe was that when two allomancers push off an object much heavier than them then the one that weighs less will accelerate away faster. Didn't you say this was correct or am I confusing myself.

 

My head hurts now, so I think I'll go watch the F1 grand prix and the tennis final.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Duskshard

[Isomere]

The biggest evidence I see that mass increases coinshot strength is Wax leveling a building at the end of Alloy of law. If his allomantic strength remained the same and he increased his mass to the equivalent of a small mountain he wouldn't have been strong enough to crush the building. Instead he would have just fallen through the building while trying in vain to support his own weight.

[Millennium]

The biggest evidence I see that mass increases coinshot strength is Wax leveling a building at the end of Alloy of law. If his allomantic strength remained the same and he increased his mass to the equivalent of a small mountain he wouldn't have been strong enough to crush the building. Instead he would have just fallen through the building while trying in vain to support his own weight.

 

That depends on where he fell. If he were to destroy some important support structure, the building could indeed come down.

 

The thing about Allomantic Pushing is that it's Newtonian. Strictly speaking, you do not apply a force to an object: you apply a force between you and the object. If you and the object were floating in space, you would both move, though whichever of you or the object has less mass will move faster than whichever has more. On a planet, other forces (like friction with the ground) have an effect on how they move, and can have an effect on how each object is affected proportionally.

 

This is important, because it explains the thing about changes in mass. When you tap weight, your Pushing force does not get any stronger, but the objects you Push will "feel more" of the force you apply. This is why you can Push light objects faster than heavy ones: the actual mass of the object doesn't matter as much as how much lighter it is than you, or the reverse. It makes sense that people might think of this as being able to Push more objects, or Push them faster, but in terms of the physics behind it, that's not really how it works.

 

Incidentally, if you are ever sentenced to execution by firing squad, a good last request would be for them to shoot you with guns that are lighter than their bullets.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

but the objects you Push will "feel more" of the force you apply.

 

Why?  Fifty newtons is fifty newtons.

 

 

If an object is feeling 50 newtons on it, it could care less what's on the other end of the push.  It'll accelerate the same no matter if you're chained to a railroad or lying on a slip'n'slide.

 

 

Of course, you generally don't want your coins to fly away out of pushing distance, which is why you need to anchor them.

 

 

Again, if weight didn't matter, Wax could (at any time) explode a building from the inside, ripping it to shreds.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity