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Weight has nothing to do with allomantic Push/pull strength.


Khmauv

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Sazed did say something to that effect but it's probably an in-world mistake, Brandon has said before that it does change mass, just not density somehow because as dj said, magic :P although I'm hoping when the next trilogy comes out we can get some more on that.

 

Could actually be both. If storing weight changes your Spiritual connection to the planet, which is apparently how gravity works in the Cosmere, you could be fooling the planet into thinking you have higher mass without actually having it, which would fix the whole "more mass, same density" thing and follow some realmatics.

 

On the topic at hand though, is it possible strength in steel/iron relates to a multiplier on base weight? For example, Vin is a stronger Mistborn than Kelsier. We know that their Pushes are not equal, but very close. We also know Vin probably weighs a bit more than half what Kelsier does.

 

So, rough estimate 1: Vin weighs about 100, Kelsier 190. With equal Allomantic strengths, Kelsier's always got 90 more pounds of weight to toss at a coin. However, we know Vin is exceptionally strong as an Allomancer. Let's assume that Vin's strength cheats the system by adding weight to her pushes that her body doesn't have. If it's a 50% multiplier, Vin is applying 150 pounds to her pushes, instead of the 100 Kelsier probably expects. Elend, a Lerasium Mistborn, has an even greater multiplier, due to his Allomancy being even stronger. We get some proof of this when he barely flinches at matching Pushes with an Inquisitor, even though all Inquisitors are steel savants. Duralanium probably takes all the multiplier and applies it at once, allowing Vin's 50% to be maybe 400%. That gives her enough "weight" to toss horses and pull steel blocks out of walls.

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Could actually be both. If storing weight changes your Spiritual connection to the planet, which is apparently how gravity works in the Cosmere, you could be fooling the planet into thinking you have higher mass without actually having it, which would fix the whole "more mass, same density" thing and follow some realmatics.

Because fooling the planet into thinking you have more mass would just make you weigh more not more massive it would have no effect on your ability to be an anchor. 

 

 

 

So, rough estimate 1: Vin weighs about 100, Kelsier 190. With equal Allomantic strengths, Kelsier's always got 90 more pounds of weight to toss at a coin. However, we know Vin is exceptionally strong as an Allomancer. Let's assume that Vin's strength cheats the system by adding weight to her pushes that her body doesn't have. If it's a 50% multiplier, Vin is applying 150 pounds to her pushes, instead of the 100 Kelsier probably expects. Elend, a Lerasium Mistborn, has an even greater multiplier, due to his Allomancy being even stronger. We get some proof of this when he barely flinches at matching Pushes with an Inquisitor, even though all Inquisitors are steel savants. Duralanium probably takes all the multiplier and applies it at once, allowing Vin's 50% to be maybe 400%. That gives her enough "weight" to toss horses and pull steel blocks out of walls.

Vins abilities would not make it act like she weighed more she would just be able to apply more force from her pushes and pulls. thus throwing her around better and allowing her to accelerate faster. Not adding effective mass to her

Edited by Tarontos
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I agree with Khmauv. I believe that mass (and it is indeed mass, possibly based on spiritual connections between all objects, rather than only the planet. Inertial and gravitational masses, at least. Not sure if the object will have stronger gravitational pull itself (Yes, there are 3 masses, which are supposed to be equal. Wiki.)) works just like normal anchor mass would. It should be noted, that in 2 cases of powerful Push by Wax, he was moving, for example, falling on building. Increasing mass would increase his momentum, Push would transfer that momentum to metal, and you get several tons of weight crushing down on so many nails, ripping them out. In case when he was standing, I believe the above conjecture is correct, and he wanted to avoid being moved and crushed by the push (He'd need anchors evenly spaced, or very fine control over push to stand in place otherwise, and would still have to avoid being damaged by recoil)

EDIT: Strictly opinion, of course.

Edited by Satsuoni
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Increasing mass would increase his momentum, Push would transfer that momentum to metal and you get several tons of weight crushing down on so many nails, ripping them out.

By saying this, you're agreeing that having more mass *does* mean you exert more force per push. Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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By saying this, you're agreeing that having more mass *does* mean you exert more force per push.

Momentum is the product of mass and velocity. An increase in mass only adds to momentum of a moving object. zero velocity, zero momentum. This added weight increasing momentum is used by Wax. Increasing his weight and then pushing on the chandelier for example. He pushes of the balcony, increases his weight and therefore his momentum, then uses that momentum to push through the chandelier without significantly slowing himself.

 

edit:

If I were exerting exactly equal forces on both boxes, and didn't need to stay in physical contact with the boxes, I would stay absolutely stationary.

I am assuming physical contact. What then?

 

 

 

Because fooling the planet into thinking you have more mass would just make you weigh more not more massive it would have no effect on your ability to be an anchor.

 

What's the difference?

Edited by Khmauv
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I am assuming physical contact. What then?

Once a box is more than one armslength away, I obviously can't move it.

Furthermore, with a physical arm I need to get my arm moving in the same direction so that I can keep transferring momentum to a moving object. If I shove a box and don't keep my arm moving after the initial shove, I lose physical contact.

However, if I had magical arms that could push against things that were hundreds of feet away, regardless of what velocity they were travelling at, obviously that would be different.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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Once a box is more than one armslength away, I obviously can't move it.

However, if I had magical arms that could push against things that were hundreds of feet away, obviously that would be different.

I think the train of thought here has been derailed. The point I am trying to make with the boxes is this...If you push on two objects, one significantly heavier or even immovable, as you have stated equal force would be applied to both. If one can't move the other has to do all the moving. To balance the forces on your body you will move to stay equal distances between the two objects. In other words a general ring push would throw you around unless you are much heavier than the objects you throw. This is why wax uses this technique. 

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I think the train of thought here has been derailed. The point I am trying to make with the boxes is this...If you push on two objects, one significantly heavier or even immovable, as you have stated equal force would be applied to both. If one can't move the other has to do all the moving. To balance the forces on your body you will move to stay equal distances between the two objects.

That's simply not the case, though. If I steelpush and throw 1000 Newtons east at an immobile steel girder, and 1000 Newtons west at a tiny coin, the coin's going to fly off super fast, but I personally am not going to move an inch.
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That's simply not the case, though. If I steelpush and throw 1000 Newtons east at an immobile steel girder, and 1000 Newtons west at a tiny coin, the coin's going to fly off super fast, but I personally am not going to move an inch.

So how do mistborn use this same power to leap over houses and "fly"?

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So how do mistborn use this same power to leap over houses and "fly"?

They push downwards with N newtons. That propels them upwards with N newtons due to action/reaction.

If they were simultaneously pushing upwards and downwards with the same force, they would not move an inch. Similarly, if they were using equal amounts of iron and steel on the same object (like some jerk in House of Ashes does), nothing would happen whatsoever.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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They push downwards with N newtons. That propels them upwards with N newtons due to action/reaction.

If they were simultaneously pushing upwards and downwards with the same force, they would not move an inch. Similarly, if they were using equal amounts of iron and steel on the same object (like some jerk in House of Ashes does), nothing would happen whatsoever.

Where is the action/reaction when not jumping?

 

I would like you to try it. Stand in the middle of the room and push off the ground. Then hold a coin above you and push off the ground and the coin at the same time. What happens?

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Where is the action/reaction when not jumping?

When I'm just standing around not burning metals? mg downwards (gravitational force), mg upwards (normal force). Net acceleration of zero.

If I have just stepped off a cliff?

mg downwards (gravitational force), +irrelevant upwards (air resistance), net accleration of g minus some infinitismal factor.

 

I would like you to try it. Stand in the middle of the room and push off the ground. Then hold a coin above you and push off the ground and the coin at the same time. What happens?

That's an utterly irrelevant comparison, and you know it.

Draw a free body diagram and get back to me.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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When I'm just standing around not burning metals? mg downwards (gravitational force), mg upwards (normal force). Net acceleration of zero.

If I have just stepped off a cliff?

mg downwards (gravitational force), +irrelevant upwards (air resistance), net accleration of g minus some infinitismal factor.

 That's an utterly irrelevant comparison, and you know it.

Draw a free body diagram and get back to me.

I think it is entirely relevant. Unless you are stating that its a magical effect that makes the this example different from a steel push jump.

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That's simply not the case, though. If I steelpush and throw 1000 Newtons east at an immobile steel girder, and 1000 Newtons west at a tiny coin, the coin's going to fly off super fast, but I personally am not going to move an inch.

Sorry, i don't agree. What I see happening in this scenario is you move away from the wall (1000N of force, as the wall sure as hell isn't going anywhere) and the coin is going the other way with 2000N of force (simplified, other factors would likely alter the actual forces in play). The coin is not am anchor. If the coin was anchored against something, then everything remains stationary. I don't see why a steelpush would ignore normal laws of motion. You're not physically in contact, but your push still exterts force, and that will you and the object.

Wait. I think maybe I understand where wires are getting crossed. Khmauv and I are talking about a SUSTAINED push. Am I right in assuming you're (in your example) giving a 'shove', then releasing the push? (Although saying that, I still perceive the same outcome to shoving a wall)

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Sorry, i don't agree. What I see happening in this scenario is you move away from the wall (1000N of force, as the wall sure as hell isn't going anywhere) and the coin is going the other way with 2000N of force (simplified, other factors would likely alter the actual forces in play). The coin is not am anchor. If the coin was anchored against something, then everything remains stationary. I don't see why a steelpush would ignore normal laws of motion. You're not physically in contact, but your push still exterts force, and that will you and the object.

Wait. I think maybe I understand where wires are getting crossed. Khmauv and I are talking about a SUSTAINED push. Am I right in assuming you're (in your example) giving a 'shove', then releasing the push? (Although saying that, I still perceive the same outcome to shoving a wall)

The wall doesn't move, the force would be transfered to the earths rotation I'd guess, but such a (comparitively) small force exerted against such a huge body wouldn't move it noticeably. It's one of those situations that seem really weird and definitely not intuitive but because you are exerting an equal force against both they would actually cancel out regardless of their respective sizes, or how long you maintained the push (As long as you kept pushing against both equally)

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I actually did some free body diagrams and find that I am now in agreement on some points. Attached are my diagrams (don't judge, I used paint). I think I understand where you are coming from phantom.
post-6591-0-31837500-1366902541_thumb.jp
As seen in balance.jpg I can see that an equally applied force on two opposing objects would indeed cancel out regardless of the mass of the object. However, as demonstrated in unbalanced.jpg, if the if all objects being pushed do not have another object directly opposing it, you will be left with a resultant force on the pusher.
post-6591-0-15548500-1366902542_thumb.jp
So phantom, in response to your earlier argument (quoted below) that the only reason Wax would have to increase his weight on a ring push is to increase his push strength I still firmly disagree.

No, his strength has been MASSIVELY increased.

Otherwise he could have stood in the middle of the building and Pushed in all directions, accomplishing exactly the same thing.

I see no way that he could guarantee all objects in a ring would have directly opposing objects to cancel out the forces. On the contrary, assuming there is a stark imbalance in object placement around him and assuming a uniform force push on all objects, he could dramatically compound the resultant force on himself. This emphasizes the need to have more weight to more easily oppose the resultant forces.
 
This does bring up an interesting question to me as well. can we assume that he can push with an equal force on all surrounding objects? I think this would be a difficult task. Especially when considering that his ability to push seems to decrease with objects further away from him.  
 
edit: added images to post body.

Edited by Khmauv
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Ok, I won't pretend to understand free-body diagrams (I don't know enough physics). I'm going to post my suppositions, and if someone can (if it's even possible) explain in layman's terms why I'm wrong, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

If I stand with my right hand against a wall ( arm bent, so within full-arm extension) with an  object equal to my body weight against my left hand (let's say my twin), and push to each side, I will move to my left at a given speed (we'll also assume I actually have some upper-body strength, which is a ridiculous slur against reality :P ). If I pushed with ONLY my right hand, the twin would move at the same rate. However, assuming I can push with equal strength in both arms, the twin will move at double the rate (it would have to, as in the same amount of time it has moved the length of two arm extensions, where I have move only one).

 

Where does pushing with Allomancy differ from this? Replace the wall with a sufficiently heavy anchor that I will move when pushing against it (as we see all through the novels) and the twin with a metal of equal weight. Following the above logic, I should move at one speed (determined by the strength of the push) whilst my twin-weight lump of metal moves at double the speed.

 

Now I'm not saying you guys are wrong, you obviously know more about physics than me - but where is my intuition leading me false?

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Since I see you are now getting to the correct essence of the problem here (free-body diagrams for the win!), I think it important to add all the basic, relevant forces involved.

 

The relevant forces for this discussion are:

(1) Gravity.  This pulls you to the center of the planet.  The feruchemy might might be able to modify the strength of this.

(2) Pushes and pulls.  As far as we know, these mostly act on the center of mass, although it has been speculated (and there is some evidence that) this is not absolute.

(3) Friction.  When you are standing still relative to a surface, there is so-called static friction, which resists motion even beginning.  This one is tricky:  Static friction is exactly as big as it needs to be to stop acceleration.  Typically, there is a limit to how much force static friction can apply; once this is exceeded, you start to move.  Static friction's key property is that how much force it resists is (roughly) proportional to how strongly you are pressing on the surface.  Thus increasing gravity and pushing would increase the upper limit of force that can be absorbed by static friction, making you a better anchor.

 

This does not apply at all when flying.  That's when it becomes really tricky.

 

Edited to fix typo.

Edited by happyman
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Ok, I won't pretend to understand free-body diagrams (I don't know enough physics). I'm going to post my suppositions, and if someone can (if it's even possible) explain in layman's terms why I'm wrong, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

If I stand with my right hand against a wall ( arm bent, so within full-arm extension) with an  object equal to my body weight against my left hand (let's say my twin), and push to each side, I will move to my left at a given speed (we'll also assume I actually have some upper-body strength, which is a ridiculous slur against reality :P ). If I pushed with ONLY my right hand, the twin would move at the same rate. However, assuming I can push with equal strength in both arms, the twin will move at double the rate (it would have to, as in the same amount of time it has moved the length of two arm extensions, where I have move only one).

 

Where does pushing with Allomancy differ from this? Replace the wall with a sufficiently heavy anchor that I will move when pushing against it (as we see all through the novels) and the twin with a metal of equal weight. Following the above logic, I should move at one speed (determined by the strength of the push) whilst my twin-weight lump of metal moves at double the speed.

 

Now I'm not saying you guys are wrong, you obviously know more about physics than me - but where is my intuition leading me false?

 

The human understanding of force is notoriously unintuitive.  Don't feel bad that you don't get it; most undergraduate introductory physics courses are essentially "Understanding Dynamics 101".  It took humans roughly 2000 years from understanding statics (building things that don't fall down) to dynamics (being able to predict in detail where a flying arrow will go.)  We tend to make a lot of mistakes when we rely on intuition.  That's why this has been such a tricky subject in the forums.

 

Edit:  Hope nobody really minds the double-post.  The topics were different enough, I thought they deserved different focus.

Edited by happyman
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Ok, to Senor, in your example, if you apply equal force to both sides, you won't move at all, and your wall arm would remain unextended. Then you'll run out of arm on other side and start moving away from the wall.

Which brings me to a question which occurred to me recently: are we sure that we can, in fact, Push at a lighter object with the same force? Imagine situation when you are in space, with pole. Your strength remains the same, and you try to push from a light and heavy objects. Can you achieve the same speed after the push? Doesn't the lighter object moving away prevent the buildup of elastic energy and hence, maximum force you can get from your push?

I freely admit that I am confused.

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