Khmauv

Weight has nothing to do with allomantic Push/pull strength.

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I have seen a reoccurring theme in these forums in regard to the relationship between steel pushing/iron puling and weight.  I am hoping I can dispel some confusion on the matter. I am hoping you can forgive me if I quote the book incorrectly I am transcribing from the audiobooks(Don't judge me. I drive a lot.) and don't have the texts to reference. 

 

I believe this whole idea comes from when Kelsier was training Vin. After they get in a pushing match. Kelsier Tells  her,

“I would...recommend that you avoid push matches with people who weigh more than you.”

This I think has been interpreted to mean than heavier people have a stronger push. If you look to their first training session Kelsier has already explained quite clearly that is has to do with action and reaction. 

 

“There is something you have to understand about allomancy...every action we take has consequences.”

 


"[Kelsier] pulled something out of his belt. A clip, the smallest denomination of coin, he held it up before [Vin] standing to the side. “Burn steel, the opposite of the metal you burned a few moments ago.” Vin nodded. Again the blue lines sprung up around her. One of them pointed directly to the coin in Kelsier’s hand. “Alright” Kelsier said, “push on it”. Vin reached toward the proper thread, and pushed slightly. The coin flipped out of Kelsier’s fingers traveling directly away from Vin. She continued to focus on it, pushing against the coin through the air until it snapped against the wall of a nearby house. Vin was thrown violently backward in a sudden jerking motion...”What happened?”, Kelsier asked her. She shook her head, “I don’t know. I pushed on the coin and it flew away, but when it hit the wall I was pushed away.” “Why?” Vin frowned thoughtfully, “I guess...I guess the coin couldn’t go anywhere, so I had to be the one that moved.” “Consequences Vin. You use your own weight when you steel push. If you’re a lot heavier than your anchor it will fly away from you like that coin did. However, if the object is heavier than you are, or if it runs into something that is, you’ll be pushed away. Iron pulling is similar, either you’ll be pulled toward the object, or it will be pulled toward you. If your weights are similar, you’ll both move.”

 

After Kelsier tells Vin not to get in a push matches, Vin recalls this earlier lesson and reasons,

"He's right...I'm smaller, I weigh less, and I have a shorter reach than anyone I'm likely fight."

 

 
The reason for not getting into a push match with someone heavier is NOT because they are stronger pushers but because their body is a better anchor.
 
Summary: weight has nothing to do with steel pushing strength.
 
edit: added quote boxes
Edited by Khmauv
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You're wrong.

 

Steris gasped, clinging to him. Wax drew every bit of weight he had left, draining his metalminds completely. That was hundreds upon hundreds of hours of weight, enough to make him crush paving stones if he tried to walk on them. In the strange way of Feruchemy, he didn’t grow more dense—bullets would still cut through him easily if they hit. But with this incredible conflux of weight, his ability to Push grew incredible.

He used that weight to Push downward with everything he had. There were numerous lines of metal below. Nails. Doorknobs. Guns. Personal effects.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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You're wrong.

 

Yes his ability to push grew NOT his strength to push. He made himself a more firm anchor.

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Yes his ability to push grew NOT his strength to push. He made himself a more firm anchor.

No, his strength has been MASSIVELY increased.

Otherwise he could have stood in the middle of the building and Pushed in all directions, accomplishing exactly the same thing.

Similarly

Taking a deep breath, Waxillium flared his steel and tapped his iron metalmind. Filling it made him lighter, but tapping it made him heavier—much heavier. He increased his weight a hundredfold. There was a proportional increase in the strength of his body, or so he’d guessed, as he didn’t crush himself with his own weight.

He raised his guns high over his head to keep them out of the radius, then Pushed outward from himself in a ring. He started carefully, gradually increasing its strength. When you Pushed, it was your weight against that of the object—in this case, the metal screws and bolts in the tables and chairs. They were swept away from him.

He became the epicenter of an expanding ring of force. Tables toppled, chairs scraped against the floor, and people screamed in surprise. Some were caught up in it, shoved away from him. Not so hard that they were hurt, he hoped, but it was better to suffer a few bruises than remain in the center of the room with what was coming.

It's absolutely pointless to tap weight if you're pushing in a ring. You're not going to be moved anywhere - all the reaction vectors cancel.

Waxillium threw himself off the balcony. As soon as his feet were free, he tapped his metalmind and drew forth as much weight as he could. That didn’t tow him to the ground; an object fell at the same speed, no matter its weight. Only air resistance mattered.

However, weight did matter a great deal when Pushing—which Waxillium did, throwing everything he had against the chandeliers. They ripped apart in a line, the metal inside them twisting upon itself, crystal exploding outward in a shower. That gave him plenty of room along the upper portion of the room to jump in an arc toward Wayne.

He only does these super dramatic pushes when he's tapping weight. Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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No, his strength has been MASSIVELY increased.

Otherwise he could have stood in the middle of the building and Pushed in all directions, accomplishing exactly the same thing.

SimilarlyIt's absolutely pointless to tap weight if you're pushing in a ring. You're not going to be moved anywhere - all the reaction vectors cancel.He only does these super dramatic pushes when he's tapping weight.

You're assuming that object around him would balance in weight. What would happen if he pushed out in all directions but one direction has a larger object than any other direction?

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You're assuming that object around him would balance in weight. What would happen if he pushed out in all directions but one direction has a larger object than any other direction?

Then he moves that object a bit less. The force he's outputting in all directions is going to be the same.

The steelpushing match between Vin and Kelsier was one where they were both anchored - Kelsier was against a wall, Vin was against a tree.

One of the coins lurched in the air, hanging directly be-tween the two of them. The rest of the coins disappeared into the mists, pushed sideways by conflicting forces.

Vin flared her steel as she flew, and heard her opponent grunt as he was Pushed backward as well. Her opponent hit the wall. Vin slammed into a tree, but she flared pewter and ignored the pain. She used the wood to brace herself, continuing to Push.

The mass of a human is insignificant compared to a tree or a wall. The difference in weights between Vin or Kelsier braced against the tree would at maximum be the difference between an effective 1045 and 1090 kg. That's well within rounding error, and no reason for Kelsier to be impressed later on.

Kelsier paused thoughtfully. “That’s a good idea, Saze.”

“But?”

Kelsier glanced back toward the door, beyond which Vin was still petulantly getting her haircut. “I’m not sure. Today, when we were training, we got into a Steelpush shoving match. The kid has to weigh less than half what I do, but she gave me a decent pummeling anyway.”

“Different people have different strengths in Allomancy,”

Sazed said.

“Yes, but the variance isn’t usually this great,” Kelsier said

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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Let me pull from your own quotes. they are consistent with my theory. 

When you Pushed, it was your weight against that of the object

However, weight did matter a great deal when Pushing

In each example he is using his weight to anchor his pushes.

 

 

 

Then he moves that object a bit less. The force he's outputting in all directions is going to be the same.

yes the force he outputs is the same but the reaction force from objects is different. Try this. sit in your chair and push as hard as you can against the air. Observe what happens. Now push with the same force against your desk. Observe what happens.

 

The mass of a human is insignificant compared to a tree or a wall. The difference in weights between Vin or Kelsier braced against the tree would at maximum be the difference between an effective 1045 and 1090 kg. That's well within rounding error, and no reason for Kelsier to be impressed later on.

Yes they were pitting their strength against each other. In that regard she is strong. But what decided the outcome of their push match? Vins Anchor wasn't as strong and the tree broke. With similar anchors you are comparing allomatic strength. With only your weight as an anchor you compare anchors.

 

If you push a wall what moves? You do. because the wall is more firmly anchored. Since you moved it doesn't mean the wall pushed you.

Edited by Khmauv
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yes the force he outputs is the same but the reaction force from objects is different. Try this. sit in your chair and push as hard as you can against the air. Observe what happens. Now push with the same force against your desk. Observe what happens.

... reaction force is always equal to input force, dude. That's Newton.

Yes they were pitting their strength against each other. In that regard she is strong. But what decided the outcome of their push match? Vins Anchor wasn't as strong and the tree broke. With similar anchors you are comparing allomatic strength. With only your weight as an anchor you compare anchors.

Kelsier is amazed at her being incredibly strong, allomantically. One of the metrics he judges that by is her ability to steelpush at a level equal to his, while weighing only half as much.

Her weight would have been entirely irrelevant if it only mattered as an anchor. Since, as you pointed out, what they had their backs against was the only thing that mattered, anchor-wise. Kelsier would have said:

"Today, when we were training, we got into a Steelpush shoving match. The kid can't pick the right anchor yet, but she gave me a decent pummeling anyway."

not

"Today, when we were training, we got into a Steelpush shoving match. The kid has to weigh less than half what I do, but she gave me a decent pummeling anyway."

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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... reaction force is always equal to input force, dude. That's Newton.

Exactly. According to Newton Force is equal to the product of mass and acceleration. F=m*a. that means that m1*a1=m2*a2 rearrange and m1/m2=a2/a1 or a1 = m2*a2/m1. Lets say that Wax is object 1 and a train car is object 2. That means that the acceleration of wax is inversely proportional to the the ratio of wax's weight to that of the train. for the sake of aurgument lets say the train car is 20 times the mass of wax. then we can say that m2 = 20*m1. we can then state that a1 = (20*m1)*a2/m1 = 20*a2. In laymans terms wax will acclerate away 20 times faster than the train.

 

If he increased his weight however so that his weight matched that of the train. then we could say m1=m2 therefore a1=m1*a2/m1=a2. meaning their accelerations would be the same. If he made himself heavier than the train, the train would accelerate away faster than he would. 

 

edited: Inversely proportional is more accurate than directly proportional. snide remark redacted 

Edited by Khmauv
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Any other scientific jargon you want to throw at me paraphrased in the wrong context?

Dude, back away from the computer and calm down.

Don't get worked up because you misused a physics term. It really isn't worth getting upset over. Chill out.

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... reaction force is always equal to input force, dude. That's Newton.Kelsier is amazed at her being incredibly strong, allomantically. One of the metrics he judges that by is her ability to steelpush at a level equal to his, while weighing only half as much.

Her weight would have been entirely irrelevant if it only mattered as an anchor. Since, as you pointed out, what they had their backs against was the only thing that mattered, anchor-wise. Kelsier would have said:

"Today, when we were training, we got into a Steelpush shoving match. The kid can't pick the right anchor yet, but she gave me a decent pummeling anyway."

not

"Today, when we were training, we got into a Steelpush shoving match. The kid has to weigh less than half what I do, but she gave me a decent pummeling anyway."

That is entirely my point. Her weight is irrelevant to her strength. Do you mean to tell me that if an allomancer is anchored against a house the mass of the house makes their pushes stronger? The anchor doesn't add strength but focuses the strength into the pushing the object instead of the allomancer.

 

 

Dude, back away from the computer and calm down.

Don't get worked up because I misused a physics term. It really isn't worth getting upset over. Chill out.

Corrected! And you are right it is not worth getting worked up over. But did you follow any of my previous post? I can simplify it for you if want.

 

Let's use the example of you pushing two boxes in opposite directions. One box is twice as heavy as the other. The lighter box will move more than the heavier box. Now imagine if you wanted to keep pushing them. Where would you move? the answer...toward the lighter box. The same would happen to wax if he pushed out in all directions equally. He and the lighter objects would be pushed away from the heavier objects. If they were dispersed around him evenly he would not move because all forces would balance. Outside of that perfect scenario he would be pushed one way. Making himself significantly heavier than the objects he is pushing would make this reaction force on him less significant.  

 

edit: punctuation for clarity

Edited by Khmauv
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I'm with Khmauv on this, although to get a final answer it maybe worth getting WoB.

Additionally, the only relevance I see to Wax tapping weight in the above example (where he stands centre and pushes all around) is so that the body's incidental strength increase (necessary to deal with the extra weight) stops him crushing himself between anchors.

similarly, by tapping before pushing at the ground beneath himself, he's preventing himself from simply flying straight up when he pushes against the nails etc in the floorboards. Without additional weight, he'd not have the anchorage to do so. Again, he could have anchored upwards (assuming there IS a sufficient anchor above him) but his push would have crushed him between anchors then.

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I am unfamiliar with WoB. Care to explain?

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Sorry, shorthand for Word of Brandon. Anything Brandon himself has directly stated, either in-text or at interviews/signings etc.

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I'm with Khmauv on this, although to get a final answer it maybe worth getting WoB.

Additionally, the only relevance I see to Wax tapping weight in the above example (where he stands centre and pushes all around) is so that the body's incidental strength increase (necessary to deal with the extra weight) stops him crushing himself between anchors.

similarly, by tapping before pushing at the ground beneath himself, he's preventing himself from simply flying straight up when he pushes against the nails etc in the floorboards. Without additional weight, he'd not have the anchorage to do so. Again, he could have anchored upwards (assuming there IS a sufficient anchor above him) but his push would have crushed him between anchors then.

This gets me wondering what would happen if you backed yourself against a cliff and steel pushed against another immovable object. Could you theoretical crush yourself? 

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This is all about forces and momentum and the classic formula for force always includes mass in some determined way. The most common being the product of mass and acceleration. But in the case of Allomancy you're really focusing more on the product of mass and velocity (momentum).

 

If one large body with x newtons of force acts on a stationary object of lesser mass then the larger object will be slowed proportional to the amount that the lighter object is accelerated. The same can be observed in many scenes throughout Mistborn where anchored objects are used to accelerate or decelerate the Allomancer. This follows Newton's Third Law of motion where an equal and opposite force is generated in response to any action. Mass is the determiner of how one body is affected more than another, or how quickly momentum is transferred.

 

The house would enhance the strength of a Push at the expense of physically crushing their body, unless they Burned pewter. Imagine trying to push a carriage uphill: the mass of the subject and the object being pushed does not change so the only thing that can is the force applied to the object. This would have to generate an equal and opposite reaction, hence the more energy your exertions cause the more pressure you're putting on your own body to create those extra newtons of force. Even if you had a stable platform to push against you're still creating more work on your body and it will eventually reach a threshold you cannot overcome.

 

Weight - more correctly "mass" since weight is the combination of mass and surface gravity - is in part responsible for Allomantic strength.

Edited by Lyrebon
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This is all about forces and momentum and the classic formula for force always includes mass in some determined way. The most common being the product of mass and acceleration. But in the case of Allomancy you're really focusing more on the product of mass and velocity (momentum).

 

If one large body with x newtons of force acts on a stationary object of lesser mass then the larger object will be slowed proportional to the amount that the lighter object is accelerated. The same can be observed in many scenes throughout Mistborn where anchored objects are used to accelerate or decelerate the Allomancer. This follows Newton's Third Law of motion where an equal and opposite force is generated in response to any action. Mass is the determiner of how one body is affected more than another, or how quickly momentum is transferred.

 

The house would enhance the strength of a Push at the expense of physically crushing their body, unless they Burned pewter. Imagine trying to push a carriage uphill: the mass of the subject and the object being pushed does not change so the only thing that can is the force applied to the object. This would have to generate an equal and opposite reaction, hence the more energy your exertions cause the more pressure you're putting on your own body to create those extra newtons of force. Even if you had a stable platform to push against you're still creating more work on your body and it will eventually reach a threshold you cannot overcome.

 

Weight - more correctly "mass" since weight is the combination of mass and surface gravity - is in part responsible for Allomantic strength.

So...Yes, you could crush yourself.

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This gets me wondering what would happen if you backed yourself against a cliff and steel pushed against another immovable object. Could you theoretical crush yourself? 

 

Assuming you could push hard enough and fast enough, and overcome the body's central governor, I'll say yes.

 

This is all about forces and momentum and the classic formula for force always includes mass in some determined way. The most common being the product of mass and acceleration. But in the case of Allomancy you're really focusing more on the product of mass and velocity (momentum).

 

If one large body with x newtons of force acts on a stationary object of lesser mass then the larger object will be slowed proportional to the amount that the lighter object is accelerated. The same can be observed in many scenes throughout Mistborn where anchored objects are used to accelerate or decelerate the Allomancer. This follows Newton's Third Law of motion where an equal and opposite force is generated in response to any action. Mass is the determiner of how one body is affected more than another, or how quickly momentum is transferred.

 

The house would enhance the strength of a Push at the expense of physically crushing their body, unless they Burned pewter. Imagine trying to push a carriage uphill: the mass of the subject and the object being pushed does not change so the only thing that can is the force applied to the object. This would have to generate an equal and opposite reaction, hence the more energy your exertions cause the more pressure you're putting on your own body to create those extra newtons of force. Even if you had a stable platform to push against you're still creating more work on your body and it will eventually reach a threshold you cannot overcome.

 

Weight - more correctly "mass" since weight is the combination of mass and surface gravity - is in part responsible for Allomantic strength.

 

Thanks Lyrebon.

 

 I'm curious now; weight is a product of mass, correct? So when tapping weight, does Wax become denser? Is there anything in-text to support/contradict? Other than we know he becomes stronger to accommodate the weight, which could be interpreted as an increase in actual muscle density, rather than simply 'magically fuelled' strength. Actually, that would be in keeping with Ferruchemy's end-neutrality, if you also assume storing weight works by reducing muscle mass.

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Taking a deep breath, Waxillium flared his steel and tapped his iron metalmind. Filling it made him lighter, but tapping it made him heavier—much heavier. He increased his weight a hundredfold. There was a proportional increase in the strength of his body, or so he’d guessed, as he didn’t crush himself with his own weight.

this seems to support the idea that it is an increase in muscle mass. though I suspect that the density of everything is increased. you need stronger bones too. It would make sense to me that the entire density of the body would increase proportionally.

Edited by Khmauv
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Assuming you could push hard enough and fast enough, and overcome the body's central governor, I'll say yes.

 

 

Thanks Lyrebon.

 

 I'm curious now; weight is a product of mass, correct? So when tapping weight, does Wax become denser? Is there anything in-text to support/contradict? Other than we know he becomes stronger to accommodate the weight, which could be interpreted as an increase in actual muscle density, rather than simply 'magically fuelled' strength. Actually, that would be in keeping with Ferruchemy's end-neutrality, if you also assume storing weight works by reducing muscle mass.

 

Weight is equal to mass [multiply] gravitational strength at a certain point, so yes. If you increase your weight you have to increase your mass since gravitational strength will remain constant at a fixed point in space. In fact, gravity only starts making a noticeable difference once in orbit. If you increase your mass and not your body size then you will become more dense.

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Weight is equal to mass [multiply] gravitational strength at a certain point, so yes. If you increase your weight you have to increase your mass since gravitational strength will remain constant at a fixed point in space. In fact, gravity only starts making a noticeable difference once in orbit. If you increase your mass and not your body size then you will become more dense.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

Though based on the idea of a Higgs field giving particles their mass, you could theoretically alter the mass of the particles in your body without increasing the density of particles. Though I suspect doing this would have some pretty strange side effects.

 

edit: then again I guess by our definition of density being mass per unit volume, increasing the mass of the fundemental particles would still increase density. Just not particle density... 

Edited by Khmauv
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If I remember correctly, weight in feruchemical terms is actually changing your mass, but doesn't change your density because magic.

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If I remember correctly, actually, it's affecting how the gravity of the planet affects you, not density. Wax is still vulnerable to bullets. I believe the quote about gravity is a Sazed one from Well of Ascension, but I'm not one hundred percent sure on that.

 

This does seem to work with a lot of Wax's shenanigans, though. He stores weight, and he's not as good an anchor as something solid, so he flies farther. Tapping just enough weight to be decently heavier than anything around him makes his circle trick work. It'll be interesting to see if the second Alloy book holds up to this or not.

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If I remember correctly, actually, it's affecting how the gravity of the planet affects you, not density. Wax is still vulnerable to bullets. I believe the quote about gravity is a Sazed one from Well of Ascension, but I'm not one hundred percent sure on that.

Sazed did say something to that effect but it's probably an in-world mistake, Brandon has said before that it does change mass, just not density somehow because as dj said, magic :P although I'm hoping when the next trilogy comes out we can get some more on that.

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That is entirely my point. Her weight is irrelevant to her strength. Do you mean to tell me that if an allomancer is anchored against a house the mass of the house makes their pushes stronger? The anchor doesn't add strength but focuses the strength into the pushing the object instead of the allomancer.

If her weight was irrelevant: Why would Kelsier bring it up?

Let's use the example of you pushing two boxes in opposite directions. One box is twice as heavy as the other. The lighter box will move more than the heavier box. Now imagine if you wanted to keep pushing them. Where would you move? the answer...toward the lighter box.

If I were exerting exactly equal forces on both boxes, and didn't need to stay in physical contact with the boxes, I would stay absolutely stationary. Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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