Adamir

Hoid's Breath

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Do they not? Everyone wears bright colors as a matter of course. Brilliant undershirts, even. On Nalthis, it's also prolly far less common to try to hide your Awakening, when

  • people know what that is, and
  • anyone with 50 Breaths will instantly know what you're doing regardless; even people with less will be able to get an idea. 50 is where your ability to enumerate an aura is perfected, not where you first acquire the ability.
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I probably should have posted this way earlier, but I asked and we managed a WoB on this one:

Q: Why is Hoid’s color aura from his Breaths not noticed by anyone on Roshar? Are the characters just not used to noticing that sort of thing, or does he not have one?
A: There are a mixture of reasons. Not the least is Hoid's control over investiture.

... [in a followup question by someone else] ...

Various methods of detecting investiture would still work, depending on how good a job Hoid is doing of suppressing his.
(source)

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I have a question/observation: 

In the Second Letter it says "I am told that in your current incarnation you've taken a name that references what you presume to be one of your virtues"

Incarnation... could that be referring just to changes that were made as he travelled from Shadesmar to the Physical realm while worldhopping? OR could it be a subtle hint that he is indeed a Returned or at least has a divine breath? in which case he would be able to simply conceal his breath the same way Vasher did/does

Edited by Shadowspren
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When Vasher hides his Breath, he doesn't get the benefit of it. Hoid clearly does. However he's doing it, it's not like how Vasher does it. We know that much for certain.

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I have a question/observation: 

In the Second Letter it says "I am told that in your current incarnation you've taken a name that references what you presume to be one of your virtues"

Incarnation... could that be referring just to changes that were made as he travelled from Shadesmar to the Physical realm while worldhopping? OR could it be a subtle hint that he is indeed a Returned or at least has a divine breath? in which case he would be able to simply conceal his breath the same way Vasher did/does

This most likely refers to Hoid calling himself Wit during the time with the Altehi Royality. Hoid tends to play direffernt roles on all his visits on the wolrd of the Cosmere, so I think "Incarnation" just refers to him inventing a new role for himself.

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This most likely refers to Hoid calling himself Wit during the time with the Altehi Royality. Hoid tends to play direffernt roles on all his visits on the wolrd of the Cosmere, so I think "Incarnation" just refers to him inventing a new role for himself.

You're probably right... but with Brandon you can never be too sure  ;)

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You're correct that he does have access to multiple forms of investiture...but I feel like you're grasping at straws if you're implying that this mix of powers will allow him to maintain a Heightening if he stores his breath in something inanimate. 

 

I don't know if I would say that. I doubt it's that far fetched to say that he could be storing breaths in feruchemy metals, and using them through that. If you can store something as abstract as memory in copper, it would make sense that you can store breaths as well, particularly because we already know that they can be put into objects (as this is the entire premise of awakening). When combined with feruchemy, it would make sense for it to be possible to use the breaths even when they aren't contained in your actual body.

 

 

A completely different argument could be that Roshar is generally pretty dull in colour (being made entirely of stone except for Shinovar), and so it's possibly that people that aren't looking for his biochroma just don't notice, and we can presume that the people of Roshar only have the equivalent of 1 breath, so they would not be able to detect minor colour shifts. When he is in a place with bright colours, the people there would expect them to be bright, so his local colour shift might not be noticed. This is strengthened by the fact that he always wears black clothes, which wouldn't be affected much by his biochroma.

 

Of course with the quote from the AMA, it could be both of these. 

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I have a question/observation: 

In the Second Letter it says "I am told that in your current incarnation you've taken a name that references what you presume to be one of your virtues"

Incarnation... could that be referring just to changes that were made as he travelled from Shadesmar to the Physical realm while worldhopping? OR could it be a subtle hint that he is indeed a Returned or at least has a divine breath? in which case he would be able to simply conceal his breath the same way Vasher did/does

This thread may be of interest. Hoid is not Returned. The question of his incarnation, however, is an interesting one.

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I don't know if I would say that. I doubt it's that far fetched to say that he could be storing breaths in feruchemy metals, and using them through that. If you can store something as abstract as memory in copper, it would make sense that you can store breaths as well, particularly because we already know that they can be put into objects (as this is the entire premise of awakening). When combined with feruchemy, it would make sense for it to be possible to use the breaths even when they aren't contained in your actual body.

 

 

A completely different argument could be that Roshar is generally pretty dull in colour (being made entirely of stone except for Shinovar), and so it's possibly that people that aren't looking for his biochroma just don't notice, and we can presume that the people of Roshar only have the equivalent of 1 breath, so they would not be able to detect minor colour shifts. When he is in a place with bright colours, the people there would expect them to be bright, so his local colour shift might not be noticed. This is strengthened by the fact that he always wears black clothes, which wouldn't be affected much by his biochroma.

 

Of course with the quote from the AMA, it could be both of these.

 

...no, none of this.

 

If Breath were stored in metal, they'd be stored, and he would get no benefit. A feruchemist carrying around a full pewtermind is no stronger than a normal person; to use the strength, he must tap it, which means his muscles would swell. You're using feruchemy as an example of exactly not how feruchemy works.

 

Roshar is not dull. There are plants everywhere, they just retreat a lot. Clothing is brightly dyed, walls are brightly painted. The idea that someone might not notice an aura because Roshar is, as a whole, bland, holds no water. Per Warbreaker, the aura makes fire burn differently. Surely you're not suggesting that fire burns differently on Roshar?

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...no, none of this.

 

If Breath were stored in metal, they'd be stored, and he would get no benefit. A feruchemist carrying around a full pewtermind is no stronger than a normal person; to use the strength, he must tap it, which means his muscles would swell. You're using feruchemy as an example of exactly not how feruchemy works.

 

Roshar is not dull. There are plants everywhere, they just retreat a lot. Clothing is brightly dyed, walls are brightly painted. The idea that someone might not notice an aura because Roshar is, as a whole, bland, holds no water. Per Warbreaker, the aura makes fire burn differently. Surely you're not suggesting that fire burns differently on Roshar?

 

When allomancy was combined with feruchemy, they interacted in a new way, causing an important plot point at the end of Mistborn 1. I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that combining feruchemy with awakening could allow for some other unforeseen result.

 

I did say, "When he is in a place with bright colours, the people there would expect them to be bright, so his local colour shift might not be noticed." 

I don't remember when Warbreaker talked about fire burning differently in the presence of biochroma, but I'm sure you're correct, and so I'd like to point out that when Hoid was telling the story of the crew that sailed through a highstorm, to Kaladin, that fire burned very differently.

 

Sorry if I'm not very good at this. I figured the best way to learn would just be to dive right in.

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And it is good to just dive right in, have an upvote!

 

I do agree with Oudeis on this though, breath wouldn't be accessible if it were stored in metal. Feruchemy and Surges may too interact in different and specatular ways, but I don't think being able to access stored investiture w/o any noticable effect is going to be one of those ways. Yes, you could use them when they weren't in your body (maybe), but they would still be noticible (probably) when tapped. I think more importantly it would be the near infinite amount of investiture available to a surgebinder who could then store it in a Nicrosil metalmind without taping/storing anything else!

 

Really, the only Feruchemy that would result in visible effects should be speed, strength, health (if you're healing), age... i think. But if you were able to store breaths in something other than a Nicrosil metalmind, tapping them should result in gaining the aura of however many breaths you'd stored... I think. 

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When allomancy was combined with feruchemy, they interacted in a new way, causing an important plot point at the end of Mistborn 1. I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that combining feruchemy with awakening could allow for some other unforeseen result.

I did say, "When he is in a place with bright colours, the people there would expect them to be bright, so his local colour shift might not be noticed."

I don't remember when Warbreaker talked about fire burning differently in the presence of biochroma, but I'm sure you're correct, and so I'd like to point out that when Hoid was telling the story of the crew that sailed through a highstorm, to Kaladin, that fire burned very differently.

Sorry if I'm not very good at this. I figured the best way to learn would just be to dive right in.

Compounding made allomancy act very differently, but the feruchemical metalmind itself behaves exactly how it always would, and requires tapping.

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All this Breath/Metal talk has made  me wonder whether it would kill a Returned to burn Aluminium...

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Something that hasn't been explained, and may be the key to this, is whether colors are actually distorted/purified around Awakeners, or whether the perception of them is altered, related to Cultivations innate investiture within Nalthians.  Do Drabs see that effect?  Would Jasnah see it if she was able to Edgecall to Hallandren?  If it's not actually altering the colors, but rather the connection to color brought about by their investiture, that effect might not be visible to anyone not from Nalthis (or at least to anyone without Breath).

 

jW

I'm more leaning toward this theory. And on a more simple, quite basic note: Perhaps BioChroma doesn't manifest visually on planets other than Nalthis. Perhaps we can't see Hoid's BioChromatic Aura simply because of the lack of Endowment on Roshar. Because Shards seem to be tied to the planets they inhabit, I tend to assume that the planet itself starts to adopt some of the investiture of the Shard inhabiting it. Because all planets have been created by the "Power of Creation" That was split-up into what we now know as Shards, I would assume that there is some form of what I like to call "Procreative Resonance". Meaning that the Created things and Procreated (Post Shattering) life forms would feel the presence of the Shards on their world and would be attuned to it. With this theory in mind, we could safely assume that even with Shards being splintered or even removed from their planet a minor level of investiture would still take place. Or there would be the presence of raw power devoid of purpose or intent such as on Sel. We see this type of power with the Dor. 

 

That's my theory at least. 

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I'm more leaning toward this theory. And on a more simple, quite basic note: Perhaps BioChroma doesn't manifest visually on planets other than Nalthis. Perhaps we can't see Hoid's BioChromatic Aura simply because of the lack of Endowment on Roshar. Because Shards seem to be tied to the planets they inhabit, I tend to assume that the planet itself starts to adopt some of the investiture of the Shard inhabiting it. Because all planets have been created by the "Power of Creation" That was split-up into what we now know as Shards, I would assume that there is some form of what I like to call "Procreative Resonance". Meaning that the Created things and Procreated (Post Shattering) life forms would feel the presence of the Shards on their world and would be attuned to it. With this theory in mind, we could safely assume that even with Shards being splintered or even removed from their planet a minor level of investiture would still take place. Or there would be the presence of raw power devoid of purpose or intent such as on Sel. We see this type of power with the Dor. 

 

That's my theory at least. 

 

Perhaps, but Occam's Razor suggests that Hoid just stores his Breaths in his (black) cloak and clothing, when the color aura's conspicuousness outweighs the perks of the Heightening (which beyond perfect pitch includes supernaturally robust health and poison resistance, and better color identification).  

 

As for the rest of the theory: It seems plausible.  However, we've seen a planet that has never had Shards to direct its innate investiture, First of the Sun, and it didn't have nearly the amount of pressure or raw power as we saw on Sel.  

Edited by Landis963
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If Breath were stored in metal, they'd be stored, and he would get no benefit. A feruchemist carrying around a full pewtermind is no stronger than a normal person; to use the strength, he must tap it, which means his muscles would swell. You're using feruchemy as an example of exactly not how feruchemy works.

 

I won't say that I agree with the theory, but consider: compounding is the process of using one type of magic (allomancy) on the fuel type of another system (feruchemy).  Just because feruchemy is the embedded magic system in this one example doesn't mean it always must be so.  

 

Thus, if you view a Breath as a chunk of fuel from a magic system that is always firing, what happens if you tap from a metalmind being constantly fed from this embedded magic system?  To keep out competing investiture, it would make most sense that the metalmind would actually be empty - not truly a metalmind at all.  But as long as it's an object of the type of metal you could tap, and it's your Breath...

 

I can't discuss magic systems within magic systems without throwing in a BWAAAAH for good measure, though.

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Maybe the black outfit he always sports in Roshar has something special that represses the aura visuals.

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Um... Why are we assuming he is always at X heightening just because he is in that scene? In fact, he would likely only have his breaths handy in that particular scene to detect Syl (like Vasher does). And in a dark dungeon, Hoid knows his aura will go unnoticed.

I'm doubting the wisdom in assuming he would always keep them invested in his person.

Edited by Pechvarry
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Um... Why are we assuming he is always at X heightening just because he is in that scene? In fact, he would likely only have his breaths handy in that particular scene to detect Syl (like Vasher does). And in a dark dungeon, Hoid knows his aura will go unnoticed.

I'm doubting the wisdom in assuming he would always keep them invested in his person.

 

Also, if Hoid so desired, the safety catch on his Breaths could be 4 syllables away:  "Your Breath To Mine!"  And from there, all he needs is to find an object that's some color other than grey (a surprising number of which would be at hand, up to and including his cloak).  

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