Ten types of evil?

[HurinThalion]

If no one has posted this before, I would be surprised, but I couldn't find it here, so I'll say it.

 

 

On page 363 (paperback edition, unfortunately) of the Way of Kings, in one of Dalinar's visions (the one on the farm) it says 

 

     The beasts attacked. Dalinar leapt forward--remaining in motion was the essence of Smokestance--and spun between the creatures, striking to the side with his poker. He hit the one on the left, ripping a gash in its too-smooth skin.

      The wound bled smoke.

So the stance that works best against the Midnight Essence, a type of creature that bleeds smoke, happens to be called Smokestance? Probably not a coincidence. Maybe each stance was created to fight a certain type of... well, they aren't voidbringers, but a different type of creature of Odium? Stonestance, for example, could be powerful against thunderclasts? 

 

I know that the stances are based off of the ten essences, but what if they're also good for fighting different creatures? Perhaps Odium made different creatures out of the ten essences? There might not be anything here, but that fact that Smokestance works best against creatures of smoke seems like too big of a coincidence for me.

[Shadowspren]

This is actually pretty interesting...

 

When I met Sanderson a while back I asked him a question and he said "In my books there are more connections than coincidences". This is a very Brandony, vague response but in connection with your theory it can probably be said that something will come of it. 

 

WoR spoilers

In WoR, Adolin is fighting the Parshendi in storm form and he looks down at his plate, smiles that thinks "This plate was made to for this very purpose" [Fighting the Voidbringers] (that was paraphrased btw) so in connection I would think that the fighting forms were made for that purpose as well

 

 

On page 363 (paperback edition, unfortunately) of the Way of Kings, in one of Dalinar's visions (the one on the farm) 

The only problem with this theory that I can see is that in this very same vision ^ after they kill all the beasts the guy turns to him and says something to the effect of "Those techniques are unfamiliar to me, but they look well practiced". Thus the only problem is that it appears the stances used in modern Roshar were not in practice when said beasts were around. 

 

Dalinar says that he is most practiced in Windstance and instinctively assumes this stance at one point during the battle, after which he sustains the most injuries until he falls back into Smokestance...

 

All in all I would like to see this as the reason behind the stances, it would be an awesome foreshadowing to some of the cool creatures that could appear throughout he series... the counter argument above being the only element of doubt

Edited June 19, 2015 by Shadowspren

[Guest]

I thought he picked Smokestance because it was the most compatible with the weapon he was using.

What chapter is this? I want to go give it another read now.

[Oudeis]

I know the title is Starfalls, I can't recall the number at the moment.

[Shadowspren]

He did, he says "Smokestance is ideal when one is using an unfamiliar weapon" 

 

But he wouldn't have known that Smokestance is best for the situation in any other respect, but i would just so happen that the stance was made for it. Assuming the theory is correct,

 

Either way it is a nice coincidence

[HurinThalion]

Erm...chapter 19.

[Kelek's Breath]

Nice find. It may be something or nothing.

To note, the female Radiant in the vision calls the Midnight essence, Ten Deaths.

Fighting, even this fighting against the Ten Deaths...

So, there may in fact be a correlation to the 10 stances.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Kelek's Breath

[natc]

Wonder what works best against a Thunderclast. . .

[Oudeis]

One would assume Stonestance...

[Rockbud]

Maybe a particular stance is synagistic with a specific set of surgebinding skills? I only mean in the sense that they might be developed to work along side those powers and complement them when fighting.

[navybrandt]

This is a great find! +1

 

You're obviously speculating here but it's certainly plausible.

[Moogle]

Maybe a particular stance is synagistic with a specific set of surgebinding skills? I only mean in the sense that they might be developed to work along side those powers and complement them when fighting.

 

I like this thought a great deal and find it makes the most sense to me of all the ideas in this thread.

 

I'll need to go look things up, but for example, I would predict in advance based on this that Vinestance (or whatever it's called) is going to be good for situations requiring high mobility.

 

Smokestance being good for improvised weapons suggests that Skybreakers might have used such when channeling Division (with the downside that the objects they used tended to explode and so become less useful very quickly).

 

I recall Ironstance (Willshapers), but I don't recall the exact specifics...

 

Edit: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6670-fighting-stances-in-wor-spoilers/ reading this, working on a better list.

 

Edit2:

• Flamestance is 'quick and flexible', which fits Edgedancers/Dustbringers flying around the battlefield with Abrasion. It is 'good with a shorter Shardblade', which may suggest Dustbringers barely bothered with Shardblades and just touched things with their hands to explode them.
• Ironstance: Not enough info in the books, and I don't have enough knowledge of swordfighting on whether to trust the thread's analysis.
• Smokestance is a "sword and knife" form, which suggests simultaneously using a Shardblade and using your hand to explode things to me. It is fluid and remains in motion, which may or may not suggest lots of Lashings. (This is a kinda weak explanation.)
• Stonestance is "immobile". Stonewards sound very defensive with Tension and Cohesion and based on their name, but there's little enough to go on here. (I have always liked the idea of Tension and Cohesion being a way to quickly raise barriers of super-strong stone, which is super defensive.)
• Vinestance: “[Relis] preferred Vinestance, slow and steady, but with sudden, quick lunges" and “The man attacked quickly, using what Kaladin could now identify as Vinestance— a style of fighting that focused on defensive footing and flexibility" are less in line with my prediction. Still, this seems like it would work well enough with Abrasion, depending on what 'flexibility' is supposed to mean - if it means high mobility like my original prediction, maybe I wasn't too far off.
• Windstance: Bad at parrying, good against many foes. Fits well enough with a Windrunner dropping into the middle of combat with a Lashing. Depending on whether or not they can do mini-explosions via Adhesion, it might fit the many enemies thing. Parrying is less important, which you might expect when you can just fly away as a defensive mechanism, but that feels weak to me.

On the whole, the theory doesn't fit super well in my opinion, but it may work. I still like the idea a lot, and the descriptions don't seem to disprove it at a first glance.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Moogle

[DreamEternal]

Wasn't ironstance based on brutaly pounding your opponent with overhead attacks and gappling with them if the opportunity arrised? From this it is possible to assume that it was made to fight human sized, and probably human shaped enemies. Maybe the grappling is connected to the surge of transportation, sending your foe to shadesmar and crushing it with thousands of beads controlled by you?

[navybrandt]

This is actually pretty interesting...

 

When I met Sanderson a while back I asked him a question and he said "In my books there are more connections than coincidences". This is a very Brandony, vague response but in connection with your theory it can probably be said that something will come of it. 

 

WoR spoilers

In WoR, Adolin is fighting the Parshendi in storm form and he looks down at his plate, smiles that thinks "This plate was made to for this very purpose" [Fighting the Voidbringers] (that was paraphrased btw) so in connection I would think that the fighting forms were made for that purpose as well

 

 

The only problem with this theory that I can see is that in this very same vision ^ after they kill all the beasts the guy turns to him and says something to the effect of "Those techniques are unfamiliar to me, but they look well practiced". Thus the only problem is that it appears the stances used in modern Roshar were not in practice when said beasts were around. 

 

Dalinar says that he is most practiced in Windstance and instinctively assumes this stance at one point during the battle, after which he sustains the most injuries until he falls back into Smokestance...

 

All in all I would like to see this as the reason behind the stances, it would be an awesome foreshadowing to some of the cool creatures that could appear throughout he series... the counter argument above being the only element of doubt

Speculation: The stances have evolved over the centuries and that's why they looked unfamiliar. They may even have changed so much that they are no longer as effective against their original targets. If I had a stance that was effective against a giant stone monster called a Thunderclast, it might change quite a bit after 1000's of years with no Thunderclasts.

Edited June 19, 2015 by navybrandt

[Tyson]

Was there any confirmation that Radiants used the sword stances? Or was sword stances based on the Radiants different fighting styles?

 

Also, if I remember correctly, some of the orders didn't fight. They had other duties, so why would they develop a unique 'stance'.

 

Great theory though. Sounds plausible.

[maxal]

Was there any confirmation that Radiants used the sword stances? Or was sword stances based on the Radiants different fighting styles?

 

Also, if I remember correctly, some of the orders didn't fight. They had other duties, so why would they develop a unique 'stance'.

 

Great theory though. Sounds plausible.

 

In Dalinar's visions, he does witness fighting and it says it didn't look like any fighting he has seen. The Radiant who talks to him state Dalinar's fighting style was different, but effective. So I'd say Radiants of old had not divided their fighting into stances. It may be the stances came later.

 

It is never states some orders never fight, but that a fair number of Radiants were scholars, dixit Jasnah (and I strongly question Jasnah's numbers in the matter). Whereas there must have orders with a higher number of scholars and others with a higher number of soldiers, I believe we would have find soldiers and scholars into all orders. Elsecallers, for example, would not have had many soldiers, just like Dustbrigners would not have had many scholars, but I see no reason to believe both orders could not have representatives for each skill.

 

Therefore, I would say it is safe to assume each orders would have had fighters and a given fighting style.

 

Moogle, do we have picture for each stance? I can't remember which one is Flamestance or Windstance or whatever. They are hard to tell. 

[Rockbud]

This might be even more tenuous, but off the top of my head I remember shardblades being described as being like flames or vines. Another link to the stances?

[Moogle]

Moogle, do we have picture for each stance? I can't remember which one is Flamestance or Windstance or whatever. They are hard to tell. 

 

This link seems to have the pictures organized and labeled.

[maxal]

This might be even more tenuous, but off the top of my head I remember shardblades being described as being like flames or vines. Another link to the stances?

 

Good guess, but no. The description of the Shardblades are linked to their order. For example, we know Adolin's Blade which materialized via a network of vines is an Edgedancer Blade. We can assume the Blades with flame-like motives such as Sunraiser of Firestorm are Dustbringer Blades.

 

 

This link seems to have the pictures organized and labeled.

 

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

Edit: Symbolism 101, I can't help but point the fact Brandon chose to draw Adolin little icons with him brandishing his Blade in Flamestance.... Just saying.

Edited June 20, 2015 by maxal

[Emerald101]

Wow, this thread derailed quickly.

 

Edit: Capitalization

Edited June 20, 2015 by Emerald101

[kaellok]

Wow, this thread derailed quickly.

 

Edit: Capitalization

Thank Harmony we had you come along and helpfully add to the conversation getting it back on track!  Also, no, it didn't.  

 

It makes perfect sense to spend a post or two talking about what various Order's Shardblades looked like and differed when you're also speaking about how they used these same Blades to fight various creatures of evil.

 

Speaking of these stances, I can't find mention of it in the books, but the Coppermind wiki states that a stance is based more on a philosophy of fighting or combat, and not necessarily on specific moves and combos.  This is a little ridiculous from a real-world perspective (look at various real-world fighting styles), but still neat and interesting to think about being true for in-world.  

 

This would also lend weight to the idea that various Orders developed fighting styles that suited their Surges, as well as the way that they would be employed in a battle.  Edgedancers would have to fight differently than, say, Stonewards or Windrunners, if they wanted to maximize capability in combat (this is true of literally every Order; I'm not picking on Edgedancers.)

 

Really, the only question to ask is whether the modern stances that Dalinar is familiar with evolved from ones created by the Orders, or were created post-Recreance.  I guess another question would be whether the modern stances are specific to Shardblades, or if people using normal weapons use them as well--and when they started.  Because if the stances did evolve from the Orders, there's potential for some interesting history.