Religions?

[Jedal]

1 hour ago, ThirdGen said:

The insistence on "1=3, don't ask how, it just is" was one of the first easy steps in my journey from Catholic to atheist.

Yeah. While some of the stuff the Church says does not make obvious sense, people excuse that as us being human. I'm not telling you to reconvert, however. The one thing I do hope is that you still think about the more ethical Catholic values, as those really helped strengthen my moral compass early on in life.

[StrikerEZ]

I answered the poll a long time ago, but I haven't said what I chose yet, mainly because I'm still fairly uncertain myself. I put Atheist/Agnostic because that's close to what I believe. 

I was raised Christian, and we went to church every Sunday, except for a few exceptions (but those were few and far between). I always kind of hated it, but I thought I was Christian. I'm not really sure when exactly it happened, but within the past 2/3 years, I've drastically changed my belief. I don't think that there's simply enough evidence for anything in the Bible to be accurate, if you aren't assuming that God is real. If you assume God is real, then the Bible makes perfect sense. Of course, there's also not enough evidence for the idea that God isn't real, but, in my opinion, there's less evidence for the Bible being real. You can argue with me if you want; I'd actually be open to changing my viewpoints if you do it well enough.

However, part of me feels like all I can really know is that which I experience. I'm told that all these things (such as events, wars, etc.) go on around the world, but if I don't witness them, do they really happen? Our brains are very good at deceiving us, and they can comprehend our complex world; why couldn't they make it up to begin with? As far as I know, my experiences are all there is.

Of course, I like to believe that's not the case, but I can never really know that any of you are actually sitting in front of a computer/phone/tablet and reading this post and that you aren't just a figment of my imagination.

[Orlion Blight]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

However, part of me feels like all I can really know is that which I experience. I'm told that all these things (such as events, wars, etc.) go on around the world, but if I don't witness them, do they really happen? Our brains are very good at deceiving us, and they can comprehend our complex world; why couldn't they make it up to begin with? As far as I know, my experiences are all there is.

Of course, I like to believe that's not the case, but I can never really know that any of you are actually sitting in front of a computer/phone/tablet and reading this post and that you aren't just a figment of my imagination.

To quote Mark Twain extensively and, therefore, in spoiler form:

Spoiler

You are not you--you have no body, no blood, no bones, you are but a thought. I myself have no existence; I am but a dream--your dream, a creature of your imagination. In a moment you will have realized this, then you will banish me from your visions and I shall dissolve into the nothingness out of which you made me

In a little while you will be alone in shoreless space, to wander its limitless solitudes without friend or comrade forever—for you will remain a thought, the only existent thought, and by your nature inextinguishable, indestructible. But I, your poor servant, have revealed you to yourself and set you free. Dream other dreams, and better!

Strange! that you should not have suspected years ago—centuries, ages, eons, ago!—for you have existed, companionless, through all the eternities.

Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane—like all dreams: a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell—mouths mercy and invented hell—mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites a poor, abused slave to worship him!

You perceive, now, that these things are all impossible except in a dream. You perceive that they are pure and puerile insanities, the silly creations of an imagination that is not conscious of its freaks—in a word, that they are a dream, and you the maker of it. The dream-marks are all present; you should have recognized them earlier.

"It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream—a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought—a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!

 

[Erunion]

@StrikerEZ - I'm a man of history and of science; those are the fields I'm trained in and am passionate about. To me, facts are crucial. To me I've talked with others, and it is clear that they are complex, independent sentient persons. They are independent as I am independent. Thus, I can trust that they perceive things as I perceive things. They tell me of what they have perceived, then I test their perception with my own, and find that it is good. 

The idea that reality is an illusion is far from a new idea. It is, in fact, very, very old. Ancient. Which should give you a hint. Things have history beyond you.
It also can be a dangerously unhealthy idea. What if the world is an illusion? Then nothing matters. If everyone else is a figment of my imagination, why should I care about them? Why should I be anything other than unutterably selfish if I am, in fact, the center of the entire universe. If I am all that exists, then I am all that matters. 

Ethically and morally, this is an abhorrent position. I, as an independent agent who has a will of his own, urge you not to take this fallacious position. 

Because it IS false. 
Or you are a figment of my imagination. Because I assure you, I exist. (Either that, or I am a particularly stubborn figment! Isn't this a fun philosophical rabbit hole!)


TL;DR - If reality is an illusion, then live a completely selfish hedonistic life. Or change your illusion. Not sure? Then forget about it. There's no point in treating reality as an illusion unless you're going to test its bounds. You are already acting as if reality is not an illusion. As it is literally impossible to tell if reality is fake or not, decide that it is real and act accordingly. 

If you're interested in the facts, history and reality of my Christian faith, PM me
I love talking about history, and history is the strongest evidence of my Christian faith. 


A lot of people talk about faith as if it's something that they must blindly enter into - they have to believe in something despite the facts. 
This doesn't make sense. It' is, to my mind and way of thinking, a ridiculous position. I have faith because of the facts. 
I have faith in my chair because I've examined its design and materials. I believe in it because I've sat in it before. I have faith based on experience, on history, and on facts. 
I trust my family because I know them. I've dealt with them all my life. I know how they act, how they react. I know that they are trustworthy - I have faith in them. I have faith in them because I know them. 
Now, I also have faith that extrapolates - I've seen my brother doing a certain thing. Having seen this, I believe I can trust him in a greater, more challenging thing. 
I know my friend, I know him to be a man of character, morals and high ethics. Knowing this, I believe that I can trust him with a secret, even though I have never done so before. 

It is this faith, this practical, solid faith, that I have in God. I know Him. I have read what he left for us, and understand some of how He thinks. I have seen how He has acted in my life and that of my family, and I begin to understand Him. I have examined His teachings and the founding of His faith in History, and can find no explanation for it save the miraculous. 

[Darkness Ascendant]

I've never heard you this passionate before @Erunion. And I must say, this conversation is quite interesting (Although I cannot participate as I am severely lacking in the field of Cristian religion)

But I agree, "I think therefore I am" as Descartes would say.

[Delightful]

1 hour ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

I've never heard you this passionate before @Erunion. And I must say, this conversation is quite interesting (Although I cannot participate as I am severely lacking in the field of Cristian religion)

But I agree, "I think therefore I am" as Descartes would say.

I mean I kinda *started* the conversation with little Christian theological knowledge  

[Erunion]

@Darkness Ascendant - That's because nothing matters to me this much. If my faith is true, then it is the most important thing in the world. If false, then it's only meaning is in how it affects me. Obviously, I believe it to be true, so there is nothing in my world more important (although there are many things that are important to me and that I am very passionate about).

 @Deliiiiiightful (and Darkness too!) - Lack of background doesn't preclude you from discussion  , as long as you know what you do know and what you don't! 
(So, for example, I could talk a lot about ancient Judaism, but very little about its modern practice. I could also talk a lot about the history of Islam, but only a little about the faith itself and its practice). 

[Darkness Ascendant]

7 hours ago, Deliiiiiightful said:

I mean I kinda *started* the conversation with little Christian theological knowledge  

haha, know what you mean

[Delightful]

1 hour ago, Erunion said:

@Darkness Ascendant - That's because nothing matters to me this much. If my faith is true, then it is the most important thing in the world. If false, then it's only meaning is in how it affects me. Obviously, I believe it to be true, so there is nothing in my world more important (although there are many things that are important to me and that I am very passionate about).

 @Deliiiiiightful (and Darkness too!) - Lack of background doesn't preclude you from discussion  , as long as you know what you do know and what you don't! 
(So, for example, I could talk a lot about ancient Judaism, but very little about its modern practice. I could also talk a lot about the history of Islam, but only a little about the faith itself and its practice). 

Huh. I wonder how your knowledge/info on ancient Judaism compares to mine. 

[Erunion]

34 minutes ago, Deliiiiiightful said:

Huh. I wonder how your knowledge/info on ancient Judaism compares to mine. 

Hard to say! 
I don't speak Hebrew, which is a shame, so I have to rely on translations, but most of those are excellent. I've read what we call the 'Old Testament' (the content is the same Jewish Tanakh, although the arrangement is different) at least a dozen times (more for some sections like the books of history, less for the minor prophets). 
As a history geek, I always delved into and thoroughly enjoyed the books of history, as a Christian we examine the whole for information about the nature of God, His character, and the nature of the messiah (and the prophecies of His coming/etc.). 
Also, as a Christian, it is important to know and understand our God - we consider Him to be the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (which should be self-evident; if God created the universe, then He must exist outside of spacetime - as such He is independent of time). 

Naturally, a Christian perspective will be different from a Jewish perspective, but the historical understanding is the same - history is history, after all. 




Note: I use the male pronoun He when referring to God, as that is the traditional usage. Although Yahweh revealed Himself only as 'I Am', and 'I Am that I Am', he is generally characterized as a Father, so the traditional usage is male. 
I am NOT saying that God the Father has a physical, corporeal masculine body.
Generally, when people are said to be made in the image of God, it is believed to be referencing sentience and reasoning, not physical characteristics.
I believe that Mormons believe that God has a physical, corporeal body (apart from Jesus)? If so, then this is a belief that is non-standard to general Christendom.

[Elenion]

On 3/1/2017 at 2:04 PM, Erunion said:

I believe that Mormons believe that God has a physical, corporeal body (apart from Jesus)? If so, then this is a belief that is non-standard to general Christendom.

The LDS belief is that God the Father and Jesus Christ have separate, physical, tangible bodies, and that the Holy Ghost has a form but has no tangible body, which is indeed not a standard belief of general Christendom.

 

On 2/28/2017 at 6:38 PM, Jedal said:

Yeah. While some of the stuff the Church says does not make obvious sense, people excuse that as us being human. I'm not telling you to reconvert, however. The one thing I do hope is that you still think about the more ethical Catholic values, as those really helped strengthen my moral compass early on in life.

While I am not Catholic, you have a great point. Even if we don't agree on the exact interpretation of scripture, what we can agree on is to follow the example of Christ: give to the poor, honor thy father and thy mother, do not commit adultery, and so on.

[Darkness Ascendant]

You know what I never understood? How Christianity could affiliate Jesus with God. (I'm not trying to flame btw). It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Erunion]

14 minutes ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

You know what I never understood? How Christianity could affiliate Jesus with God. (I'm not trying to flame btw). It just doesn't make sense to me.

He made some pretty explicit statements regarding his own deity - specifically a series of 'I Am statements' - like John 8:58: ' Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.” '
This is pretty clearly him claiming to be the same 'I Am' of the burning bush; certainly that's what the people there thought he was saying as they immediately tried to kill him for saying it.

Now, someone saying they're God usually means they're crazy. If they back it up with clearly miraculous acts? By multiplying food? Healing the sick? With raising people from the dead? Then you start to give them more credence. 
(All this is, of course, presupposing the accuracy of the Gospels. Which is an entirely different discussion that I am more than willing to undertake, but I don't think this is the right place for it?)

Edited March 3, 2017 by Erunion

[Darkness Ascendant]

1 minute ago, Erunion said:

He made some pretty explicit statements regarding his own deity - specifically a series of 'I Am statements' - like John 8:58: ' Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” '
This is pretty clearly him claiming to be the same 'I Am' of the burning bush; certainly that's what the people there thought he was saying as they immediately tried to kill him for saying it.

Now, someone saying they're God usually means they're crazy. If they back it up with clearly miraculous acts? By multiplying food? Healing the sick? With raising people from the dead? Then you start to give them more credence. 
(All this is, of course, presupposing the accuracy of the Gospels. Which is an entirely different discussion that I am more than willing to undertake, but I don't think this is the right place for it?)

Hmmm. I guess people back then would believe it. But why do people still believe it? Surely God wouldn't approve of his creation attempting to get to his level.

[Erunion]

Just now, Darkness Ascendant said:

Hmmm. I guess people back then would believe it. But why do people still believe it? Surely God wouldn't approve of his creation attempting to get to his level.

Because we don't think Jesus is God's creation in the same way you and I are (although certainly his corporeal form was), we think of Him as being God. Literally God Made Flesh, and dwelt among us. 
The Apostle Paul says it better than me:
 

Quote

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,^a 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,^b 7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,^c being born in the likeness of men.8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10  - Phillipians 2: 5-9

 

[Darkness Ascendant]

1 hour ago, Erunion said:

Because we don't think Jesus is God's creation in the same way you and I are (although certainly his corporeal form was), we think of Him as being God. Literally God Made Flesh, and dwelt among us. 
The Apostle Paul says it better than me:
 

 

huh, I thought he was the son of god.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Darkness Ascendant

[Mestiv]

1 hour ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

huh, I thought he was the son of god.

Yeah, that's very confusing and I don't get it too. Why make it so complicated and say that there is one God, but in three separate beings and one of them is a son of another, but they are still the same thing. That's so confusing and doesn't seem to serve any purpose. 

[Darkness Ascendant]

12 minutes ago, Mestiv said:

Yeah, that's very confusing and I don't get it too. Why make it so complicated and say that there is one God, but in three separate beings and one of them is a son of another, but they are still the same thing. That's so confusing and doesn't seem to serve any purpose. 

I reckon our religion is good at making things clear. Though it's very vague about other things...like homosexuality.

[Erunion]

@Mestiv - Because reality is sometimes complex

Seriously though, it's hard for us to expect to completely understand God. In order to describe Him, we have to use tons of imperfect language to describe perfection, an incomplete tongue to describe completion, and a temporal, mortal mindset to comprehend the Immortal and Eternal One. 

A God that is easy for Man to understand is always suspect in my mind  

(This being said, I am neither theologian nor a great philosopher. Theologian's and Philosophers have devoted thousands of pages to these very questions. Hrmmm.... I guess I have more reading to do!) 

[Delightful]

5 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

huh, I thought he was the son of god.

 

4 hours ago, Mestiv said:

Yeah, that's very confusing and I don't get it too. Why make it so complicated and say that there is one God, but in three separate beings and one of them is a son of another, but they are still the same thing. That's so confusing and doesn't seem to serve any purpose. 

Yeeaaah I'm also confused here. Is it a different sect thing or is there a unifying belief here?

4 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

I reckon our religion is good at making things clear. Though it's very vague about other things...like homosexuality.

LOL yup. And.....slavery and so much else. I identify very strongly with that statement. 

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

4 minutes ago, Deliiiiiightful said:

Yeeaaah I'm also confused here. Is it a different sect thing or is there a unifying belief here?

Like Erunion said more eloquently, it's a case of using imperfect language to describe something beyond our understanding. Basically: Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, because (as it was explained to me; others might have heard differently) it's one way for humans to wrap their heads around the concept of God existing in two places, in two forms (spirit and human being) at once. 

I read one book that dramatized it this way: These researchers had, against all odds, created computer simulations that had minds, personalities, and wills of their own. One of the programmers decided he had to go into the simulation to show them how he wanted them to treat one another, to lead by example, so he had his personality and mind copied into a simulation that looked like him. The simulation had a will and mind of its own, but its will and mind were still in harmony with that of its creator, because they were (for all intents and purposes) the same person; they just existed in two forms at once. It's not a perfect metaphor, but that's one way of explaining it. 

[Erunion]

@Deliiiiiightful - belief in the Trinity is fairly universal to mainstream Christianity, so believed in by roughly a quarter to a third of the humans on the earth. 

That being said, most don't care too much to delve into the theology of it. 

 

@TwiLyghtSansSparkles - another good metaphor  (if, like all metaphors to describe the indescribable, imperfect). 

One I've heard as well this: God is like water, in that he exists in three forms - water, ice, vapour. Each form is distinct, it has its own characteristics, its own 'personality', yet each remains fundamentally the same (H2O). 

That, of course, is another imperfect metaphor - it misses a lot. But I think it helps. 

[Kaymyth]

The idea of multiple entities being basically the same thing is hardly a new concept; the ancient Egyptian (Kemetic) pantheon syncretized deities together all the time. 

Basically, there is this overarching concept called "Netjer" which is the source of Divinity as a whole.  The gods were often referred to as the Names of Netjer, or "Netjeru" - basically all the different names that Divinity could be called.  They were both separate and distinct from each other and the same at once, and the ancient Egyptian people didn't really have a problem with that.  In fact, they would often stick two gods together and declare a new one - this is how you get gods like Amun-Ra, and how you can explain that Hathor and Sekhmet are the both the same goddess and totally different ones at the same time.

The Christian Trinity and the Names of Netjer are different takes on the same concept.  It's just that Kemetic tradition has a much bigger trunk of divine Legos to play with than Christians do.  So the Kemetic gods tend to specialize more heavily than the Trinity does.

[Orlion Blight]

Keep in mind, the Judeao-Christain God has also been a burning bush, cloud of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night! Being an alleged omnipotent being, it can wear however many hats it wants!

[Miyabi]

I'm one of two Buddhists? lol.  xD