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Hello Everyone,

 

For a School project that i am doing i have to make a presentation to my Librarian on seven books that i have read, and in the presentation i must recommend whether the book should be added to the library's collection, or i can recommend that it be removed.

 

The decision to add or remove must be based on the gender stereotyping found in each book and what people will learn about the role of gender from reading it

 

I am basically done with the presentation but i feel like i am repeating myself throughout the presentation and i have run out of good ideas/examples. So i thought that i would turn to the community that i know best and that i have found to be extremely intelligent and fair in regards to discussion/argument of a topic. Which is why i humbly come to you now.

 

The seven books (Note that i can use an entire series as a single book) that i have chosen to analyse in terms of Gender stereotyping are as follows:

1) Stormlight Archive

2) Mistborn

3) warbreaker

4) Elantris

5) The Painted Man (Peter V. Brett)

6) The Name Of the Wind (Patrick Rothfuss)

7) The Black Prism (Brent Weeks)

 

I look forward to the discussions we will have around this sensitive topic. if i do use any ideas or comments from our discussion i will reference it completely.

Edited by Unknowingly
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For example, something that i found really interesting about the Final Empire was the lack of both Major and Minor Female Characters.

 

Sure Vin is a strong female character that doesn't really conform to any of the stereo types, even when she is at Balls in a dress. she is independent and strong and even though Brandon does use romance, its function is more to advance the story and the focus on the romantics is not so strong.

 

But how many other female characters are there? in the Kelsier's Crew, none. In the Skaa thieving crew? Only Vin if i remember correctly. 

 

Elend is engaged to another Female mistborn(i cant remember her name right now) and she does feature in the scenes at Balls. She is the only other female character that i can think of that gets any substantial screen time.

 

This creates a weird contrast in that Vin is not the stereotypical female character, but then there are almost no other Female Characters in the book, which is a common stereotype that is used, unknowingly, by male authors

Edited by Unknowingly
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I'd suggest Warbreaker Stormlight Archive.

 

Yeah, Warbreaker is my "go to" for things... but Stormlight might be a more interesting novel to look at, particularly if you are giving a presentation to people who haven't read it. After all, there is a strong cultural divide between Masculine and Feminine roles in Rosharan society; you could look at how those roles are (ultimately) inadaquete, by contrasting female scholars with the likes of Lift or Eshonai, or comparing Renarin's inability to fight in context of masculine social norms but in- and out- of universe.

 

Heck, with Stormlight, you could contrast how different cultures impose different gender constraints, such as the female king in the Reishi Isles, or the female warriors in the Parshendi.  

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you forget tyndwyl, or how was spelled her name. the terris keeper who taught elend to be a leader.

and spook's love interest, she seemed a stereotypical damsel in distress, but she was a coinshot.

 

I'd say in all of sanderson books there are societies that are strongly gender stereotyped. but the characters are not.

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You are Right about Tyndwyl, and admittedly i did forget about Spooks Love interest, but i was originally referring to Mistborn one, The Final Empire. 

 

With regards to the entire Mistborn Series it does get better, but not much.

Edited by Connor the Shardholder
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In regards to Stormlight i actually found it really hard to talk about how Brandon used Gender stereotypes because he didn't really exploit them to further the story and he didn't seem to use them by accident either.

 

What i did end up doing was looking at the contrast between the Parshendi and the Rosharan societies. In Rosharan societies everything is based on Gender and it is too a very extreme level(which makes it very hard to judge since it makes the roles of gender seem idiotic, such as men being illiterate). However in the Parshendi society they seem to not care at all about Gender specific roles and only take notice when in mating form and even then it is not based on gender so much as a need to procreate. 

 

Just looking from the Rosharan side, it is actually really good at showing how Gender Stereotyping and Gender Specific roles can be very misguided and detrimental to the advancement of a society. 

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Something I loved about vin is that she follows neither stereotype of 'tomboy' or 'air headed damsel in distress'. Her Mistborn powers are awesome and BA, And I also love that she struggles with being feminine, wearing dresses etc throughout. That being said, very very few other female characters. I'm

SA, You could also talk about women controlling information and history as the ones who write.

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Just in case you've overlooked her, I think our resident pink puff Allrianne is one of the best female characters you can talk about in a presentation like this.  ^_^

 

Allrianne isn't the most representative of the female characters in Mistborn - that would be Vin, of course - but I think it would be easier and quite interesting to talk about her. She conforms to female stereotypes, yes, with her love of pretty dresses and her girlish cheer, but (and this is important, so go ahead and emphasise it) it makes her no weaker. In fact, it forms a good portion of her strength. We know that she's strong-willed and very capable; this implies that she conforms to stereotypes not because that is what she is told to do, but because that is what she enjoys anyway and because she can use it to her advantage.

 

It would be good, I think, to discuss a character who can show people that being girly is not a bad thing. Allrianne may be relatively weak on her own, but she doesn't live in isolation; at any given moment, her strength is equal to the sum total of the strength of everyone who she can bring to fight for her sake. She has this strength because of her girlish mannerisms, because she can present herself as someone worthy of protection.

...And this would be a good place to cut to a discussion of the social advantages given to women, or a contrast of male and female leadership styles, or how unfair it is that men aren't allowed to wear pretty dresses or whatever.  :lol:

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Just in case you've overlooked her, I think our resident pink puff Allrianne is one of the best female characters you can talk about in a presentation like this.  ^_^

 

Allrianne isn't the most representative of the female characters in Mistborn - that would be Vin, of course - but I think it would be easier and quite interesting to talk about her. She conforms to female stereotypes, yes, with her love of pretty dresses and her girlish cheer, but (and this is important, so go ahead and emphasise it) it makes her no weaker. In fact, it forms a good portion of her strength. We know that she's strong-willed and very capable; this implies that she conforms to stereotypes not because that is what she is told to do, but because that is what she enjoys anyway and because she can use it to her advantage.

 

It would be good, I think, to discuss a character who can show people that being girly is not a bad thing. Allrianne may be relatively weak on her own, but she doesn't live in isolation; at any given moment, her strength is equal to the sum total of the strength of everyone who she can bring to fight for her sake. She has this strength because of her girlish mannerisms, because she can present herself as someone worthy of protection.

...And this would be a good place to cut to a discussion of the social advantages given to women, or a contrast of male and female leadership styles, or how unfair it is that men aren't allowed to wear pretty dresses or whatever.  :lol:

 

 I LOVE this. I am somewhat uncomfortable in knowing the right way to be for girls nowadays is to not be girly. Could there be one more lasting prejudice than the dumb blond one? Or because a girl loves make-up and dresses, she is stupid, vapid, useless and an empty shell? The kick-chull girl is awesome, I love the kick-chull girl, but what is wrong with the regular girl? 

 

Is Vin a better character because she evolved outside the standard prejudice? Is Alrianne a lesser character because she is a walking prejudice? 

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I've put down a book before because the kick-Chull girl was literally a guy with the female pronoun (and I don't mean transgender, I mean in the way she was written). The only distinguishing feature that she was female was that some guy she hated liked her and made trouble, and she was attracted to one of the main charcters. Or they were attracted to her, I don't remember? Otherwise she was "not like other girls and learned to fight and was tough and jeisiabwjeidlabwrlw".

So yeah that was just a particularly strong example of that phenomenon for me.

The reason I love Elsa and Anna is that they're kick-Chull while being princesses in long girly dresses! Same with Jasnah and Navani actually.

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I've put down a book before because the kick-Chull girl was literally a guy with the female pronoun (and I don't mean transgender, I mean in the way she was written). The only distinguishing feature that she was female was that some guy she hated liked her and made trouble, and she was attracted to one of the main charcters. Or they were attracted to her, I don't remember? Otherwise she was "not like other girls and learned to fight and was tough and jeisiabwjeidlabwrlw".

So yeah that was just a particularly strong example of that phenomenon for me.

The reason I love Elsa and Anna is that they're kick-Chull while being princesses in long girly dresses! Same with Jasnah and Navani actually.

 

This is interesting.

 

I have been giving this some more thoughts. It has lead me to believe the characters I typically end up liking the most are those who starts up following generic mold but are proven to be more. For example, the girly bubbly girl or the handsome sports jock who turns out being quite smart once you push them to work on their intellectual skills. The rich kid who turns out being rather nice and generous, instead of an arrogant pompous jerk. The nerdy smart kid who turns out being athletic once you give him a chance to, because he (or she) underestimated how much training his regular solitary jogging was given him (or her). Or the same nerdy kid who ends up being quite a strong orator once you give him the chance to: just because he is nerdy does not mean he has to be socially awkward and bad at sports.

 

I love these, but the kick-chull girl who is nothing more than a boy with a girl's name? Not so much. I love tropes that acknowledge a character's gender, a character's personality, but also the fact people rarely are just one thing. You can like sports AND be smart. You can dress well by day AND run in the mud by night. Or you can simply hate sports, be a book worm, but have social skills. 

 

What I do not like? Tropes who has become cliches... for me. The beaten under-dog who ends up becoming a hero, not because it is as bad trope, but because I found it overused. The kick-chull girl as you described would be another one, though I tend to love the kick-chull girl, but in the way you describe her. The nerdy socially awkward kid who ends up saving the world or getting the girl (or the boy). The nice girl ending up with the bad boy. The rich kid who is just a mean jerk and dismiss anyone below him (or her). 

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This thread is interesting to me because I've recently been giving this topic in fantasy some thought after reading the Powder Mage books. One thing I really like about these books is how the typical gender rolls are somewhat absent. The characters are distinctively male or female and there is some typical male and female interaction like romance but females play an active roll in what typically would be male dominated rolls. Women fight in the army along side men hold high ranks like General. There are several other strong female characters in the books not just the ones involved in the military. Don't want to spoil anything so I wont give more details. In fantasy I am use to the damsal in distress or the heroine that is unsure of herself compared to her male counterparts. I found it pretty refreshing for a change. 

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One thing I've noticed about the Stormlight books is that Sanderson plays with gender stereotypes in a very unusual way: As most characters are Alethi, they are forced into Alethi gender stereotypes, but very few of them recognize those stereotypes as such. Kaladin, for instance, expresses horror at the thought of learning to read, while Jasnah—who has publicly rejected the highly gender segregated Vorin religion—still conforms to Vorin standards of modesty and conduct without complaint or comment. If there is any commentary on Vorin gender stereotypes, it's likely to come through interludes, which cast characters from non-Vorin societies as foils for the Alethi characters; or through Dalinar's visions, which plunge him into scenes from a more egalitarian past. 

 

Subtle as it is, I think Stormlight offers one of the best commentary on gender stereotypes I've seen in fantasy literature. We not only see how deeply segregated Alethi society is along gender lines—to the point where men eat spicy food while women dine on sweet vegetables—but we see how natural it is for the Alethi characters to conform to this segregation. We as readers see their stereotypes for what they are, but the characters have been brought up in that segregation and have come to see it as normal, if not natural. It's a fascinating look at how insidious stereotypes can be, once they've been firmly ingrained into a society. 

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  • 2 months later...

NECROMANCY!

 

One thing I've noticed about the Stormlight books is that Sanderson plays with gender stereotypes in a very unusual way: As most characters are Alethi, they are forced into Alethi gender stereotypes, but very few of them recognize those stereotypes as such. Kaladin, for instance, expresses horror at the thought of learning to read, while Jasnah—who has publicly rejected the highly gender segregated Vorin religion—still conforms to Vorin standards of modesty and conduct without complaint or comment. If there is any commentary on Vorin gender stereotypes, it's likely to come through interludes, which cast characters from non-Vorin societies as foils for the Alethi characters; or through Dalinar's visions, which plunge him into scenes from a more egalitarian past. 

 

Subtle as it is, I think Stormlight offers one of the best commentary on gender stereotypes I've seen in fantasy literature. We not only see how deeply segregated Alethi society is along gender lines—to the point where men eat spicy food while women dine on sweet vegetables—but we see how natural it is for the Alethi characters to conform to this segregation. We as readers see their stereotypes for what they are, but the characters have been brought up in that segregation and have come to see it as normal, if not natural. It's a fascinating look at how insidious stereotypes can be, once they've been firmly ingrained into a society. 

Darn it, why does everyone have to make me feel incompetent at stuff I love? 

I kinda saw that, but that idea didn't come into fruition until I read this.

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