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What Happened in the Rest of the World?


Blackhoof

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We all know how the United States fared after Calamity and the rise of the Epics (so very badly), but what about elsewhere?

 

Mostly, I'd say pretty much the same, although even worse in many cases (as most nations don't have the military and technology of the US, meaning that their people would have less success fighting the Epics and be worse off afterwards), but there would be exceptions.

 

Asia: would be oh so destroyed. I think population density is directly proportional to how much damage the Epics inflict on a nation's people, environment and cities. And Asia has the highest population density in general. Assuming one in a thousand people became Epics (which is the ratio I like, it feels right to me) and one in a thousand Epics are High Epics, that would mean that there are (at the beginning) one million Epics and ten thousand High Epics in China alone. And the high population density means that thousands upon thousands of them appear in every city, ready to tear them apart in their Rendings and subsequent battles for dominance. Every issue the US and then the FSA has, the Epic's Republic of China has it over twice as bad.

 

Europe: Europe would fare as well as the US, I think.

 

Africa: Much, much worse than the US in some areas, and better in others. Its huge size and relatively small population would mean that some tribes in the Sahara might not have much idea of what has even happened, beyond seeing Calamity. Butwith low level of development and high poverty already, a million Epics across the continent would only make things worse. 

 

Australia: Australia would probably fare the best of any country or continent, I think. Low population density, relatively high level of wealth and development, an elite military force. The only problem is high urbanisation, with a huge proportion of the populace concentrated in the capital cities of each state and around the east coast. But seriously, there would be a tiny amount of Epics in Australia. 22 million people means 22 thousand Epics, mainly in cities along the east coast, as I said. People living on the other side of the country, and in the north, would have relatively few Epics to deal with. 

 

South America: The rain forests would make good hiding spots for people, that Epics would never find people in. Chances are certain Amazonian tribes may never encounter any epics, or hear more than rumours about the collapse of society. I predict a 110% chance that communist Epics are running around, creating "utopias" for whatever humans they can corral.

 

Middle East: given a higher population density than the US, and a lower level of organisation, wealth and military power, it would fare much worse than the US.

 

 

What do you guys think?

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We all know how the United States fared after Calamity and the rise of the Epics (so very badly), but what about elsewhere?

 

Mostly, I'd say pretty much the same, although even worse in many cases (as most nations don't have the military and technology of the US, meaning that their people would have less success fighting the Epics and be worse off afterwards), but there would be exceptions.

 

Asia: would be oh so destroyed. I think population density is directly proportional to how much damage the Epics inflict on a nation's people, environment and cities. And Asia has the highest population density in general. Assuming one in a thousand people became Epics (which is the ratio I like, it feels right to me) and one in a thousand Epics are High Epics, that would mean that there are (at the beginning) one million Epics and ten thousand High Epics in China alone. And the high population density means that thousands upon thousands of them appear in every city, ready to tear them apart in their Rendings and subsequent battles for dominance. Every issue the US and then the FSA has, the Epic's Republic of China has it over twice as bad.

 

Europe: Europe would fare as well as the US, I think.

 

Africa: Much, much worse than the US in some areas, and better in others. Its huge size and relatively small population would mean that some tribes in the Sahara might not have much idea of what has even happened, beyond seeing Calamity. Butwith low level of development and high poverty already, a million Epics across the continent would only make things worse. 

 

Australia: Australia would probably fare the best of any country or continent, I think. Low population density, relatively high level of wealth and development, an elite military force. The only problem is high urbanisation, with a huge proportion of the populace concentrated in the capital cities of each state and around the east coast. But seriously, there would be a tiny amount of Epics in Australia. 22 million people means 22 thousand Epics, mainly in cities along the east coast, as I said. People living on the other side of the country, and in the north, would have relatively few Epics to deal with. 

 

South America: The rain forests would make good hiding spots for people, that Epics would never find people in. Chances are certain Amazonian tribes may never encounter any epics, or hear more than rumours about the collapse of society. I predict a 110% chance that communist Epics are running around, creating "utopias" for whatever humans they can corral.

 

Middle East: given a higher population density than the US, and a lower level of organisation, wealth and military power, it would fare much worse than the US.

 

 

What do you guys think?

 

Well, according to this recent answer in an AMA, nukes were used in fighting Epics. Not so much in the US, I gathered, but I think there would definitely be some in China, perhaps Europe, and parts of the Middle East, as well as Australia. If it's all you've got to throw at an invincible god, and that invincible god is killing people left and right….well, evacuate the area and pray for forgiveness, I guess. :mellow: 

 

One thing I'd disagree with so far as your analysis goes is that isolated tribes of indigenous peoples wouldn't hear of the Epics at all. Calamity is visible anywhere in the world, so it's probably safe to assume it (his?) range of effectiveness is the entire globe—urbanized and undiscovered parts alike. From Prof's remarks in Firefight, we learn that people living between the cities occasionally gain Epic powers and slaughter their fellow scavengers. We also learn in the same book that fear—more specifically, trauma—is the one prerequisite for becoming an Epic. Who's to say a member of an isolated Amazonian tribe hasn't had some traumatic experience that allowed Calamity to transform them? Who's to say that person didn't gain terrifying powers, kill most of their tribe, and enslave their neighbors? I can definitely see Epics enslaving whoever they can corral (those people being natives and city refugees alike) but I see no reason why those Epics can't be former members of isolated tribes whose pasts made them prime targets for Calamity. 

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Well, according to this recent answer in an AMA, nukes were used in fighting Epics. Not so much in the US, I gathered, but I think there would definitely be some in China, perhaps Europe, and parts of the Middle East, as well as Australia. If it's all you've got to throw at an invincible god, and that invincible god is killing people left and right….well, evacuate the area and pray for forgiveness, I guess. :mellow:

 

Australia doesn't have nukes, but certainly China, Russia, most nuclear states probably would have tried at least once.

 

 

One thing I'd disagree with so far as your analysis goes is that isolated tribes of indigenous peoples wouldn't hear of the Epics at all. Calamity is visible anywhere in the world, so it's probably safe to assume it (his?) range of effectiveness is the entire globe—urbanized and undiscovered parts alike. From Prof's remarks in Firefight, we learn that people living between the cities occasionally gain Epic powers and slaughter their fellow scavengers. We also learn in the same book that fear—more specifically, trauma—is the one prerequisite for becoming an Epic. Who's to say a member of an isolated Amazonian tribe hasn't had some traumatic experience that allowed Calamity to transform them? Who's to say that person didn't gain terrifying powers, kill most of their tribe, and enslave their neighbors? I can definitely see Epics enslaving whoever they can corral (those people being natives and city refugees alike) but I see no reason why those Epics can't be former members of isolated tribes whose pasts made them prime targets for Calamity. 

 

 

Well its more about numbers- if you have isolated tribes around, with small populations, they aren't going to get many Epics, maybe less than 1 per tribe on average. If one particular tribe doesn't have any contact with anyone else, and they don't manifest any Epics, then they wouldn't have any idea what is happening, other than seeing Calamity. That said, there probably aren't many of those.

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Australia doesn't have nukes, but certainly China, Russia, most nuclear states probably would have tried at least once.

 

Look, I'm no expert on Australian politics, but from what I know of human nature, I know that when people face something that scary, they're going to resort to desperate measures to stop it. Maybe they didn't, wouldn't, would never try for nukes, but why wouldn't they try going after an Epic with conventional explosives? Even if there aren't any irradiated areas in Australia, there are bound to be at least a few that are uninhabitable due to the large-scale property damage. 

 

Well its more about numbers- if you have isolated tribes around, with small populations, they aren't going to get many Epics, maybe less than 1 per tribe on average. If one particular tribe doesn't have any contact with anyone else, and they don't manifest any Epics, then they wouldn't have any idea what is happening, other than seeing Calamity. That said, there probably aren't many of those.

 

It could come down to numbers, yes, but so far the key ingredient seems to be fear. Calamity preys on the fearful. Who's to say there aren't two, or three, or ten people in the same isolated tribe who suffered different traumas? Calamity is definitely more selective by the time Steelheart begins, but my impression was that in the early days, he wasn't so picky. I doubt he'd look at a tribe, say "Oh, I already got my quota on this continent; I'm going to pass on that perfectly viable candidate because numbers" and move on. I think it's too generous to assume that everyone in an isolated tribe leads an idyllic life with absolutely no chance of encountering anything traumatic. The world is a dangerous place, and human nature is awful enough that people, no matter where they live, are inclined to hurt one another. 

 

I could be wrong, but at the moment, it seems like some small, isolated place is just as likely to manifest Epics as any other. 

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Asia: would be oh so destroyed. I think population density is directly proportional to how much damage the Epics inflict on a nation's people, environment and cities. And Asia has the highest population density in general. Assuming one in a thousand people became Epics (which is the ratio I like, it feels right to me) and one in a thousand Epics are High Epics, that would mean that there are (at the beginning) one million Epics and ten thousand High Epics in China alone. And the high population density means that thousands upon thousands of them appear in every city, ready to tear them apart in their Rendings and subsequent battles for dominance. Every issue the US and then the FSA has, the Epic's Republic of China has it over twice as bad.

 

The semi good news here is that once they run out of  ordinary people for their initial killing rampage they go after other epics I imagine that there was a devastating Epic war that destroyed out most of Asia soon after calamity rose.

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The semi good news here is that once they run out of  ordinary people for their initial killing rampage they go after other epics I imagine that there was a devastating Epic war that destroyed out most of Asia soon after calamity rose.

 

Pretty much. And considering China has nukes, they probably used them to try to get rid of as many Epics as possible, probably wiping out a number of cities. Beijing and Shanghai probably aren't there anymore, sadly.

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Look, I'm no expert on Australian politics, but from what I know of human nature, I know that when people face something that scary, they're going to resort to desperate measures to stop it. Maybe they didn't, wouldn't, would never try for nukes, but why wouldn't they try going after an Epic with conventional explosives? Even if there aren't any irradiated areas in Australia, there are bound to be at least a few that are uninhabitable due to the large-scale property damage. 

 

 

Yes, but conventional explosives can't render an area uninhabitable--if a city is completely leveled by conventional explosives, there's nothing stopping anyone from building new houses over the powdered remains of the old should they so choose to. Whether or not they would is a different matter altogether, but conventional explosives don't have the same poisoning effect on the environment that nukes do.

 

Even nukes couldn't make an area seriously uninhabitable forever; Hiroshima and Nagasaki have bustling populations today, for instance, despite the tragedies of 1945. From what I can gather, this is mostly because a nuclear bomb doesn't leave behind nearly as much radioactive material as a reactor like the ones in Chernobyl or Fukushima. Even fallout can be mostly prevented by detonating the bomb high in the air as opposed to on the ground, but even in the worst case scenario, as long as a city isn't continually pulverized with dozens of nukes, the area will become habitable after about a decade. (Albeit with slightly higher chances of cancer or leukemia, but these chances too dissipate after another decade.)

 

So overall, some cities would be destroyed, and some of their ruins would run a slight risk of giving you leukemia, but we're talking about nothing as dramatic as enormous glowing fields of lethal radiation. Conventional explosives certainly wouldn't cause an area to become permanently uninhabitable, unless we're talking about an enormous number of mines being hidden in an area.

 

On a side note, Oregon too, from Megan's description, shouldn't exactly be uninhabitable. As long as none of the Epics there managed to poison the landscape, plants would start growing there again immediately, with animals close behind them. In an ironic turn of things, the wasteland of Oregon could become green and lush again within a few years, with the ashes left behind by the old battles nourishing new generations of trees. And that's assuming Megan wasn't giving in to hyperbole when she spoke of the entire state being equally demolished.

 

 

 

I could be wrong, but at the moment, it seems like some small, isolated place is just as likely to manifest Epics as any other. 

 

 

In this I am in full agreement. Calamity doesn't seem to use statistics as a base for his decisions; while we don't understand his criteria for choosing Epics, it seems very likely that these criteria do exist. While cities such as New York or Shanghai would obviously have a higher number of people to choose from, isolated tribes would be just as likely to manifest Epics, as would isolated research teams at the South Pole or the crews of submarines deep underwater.

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Yes, but conventional explosives can't render an area uninhabitable--if a city is completely leveled by conventional explosives, there's nothing stopping anyone from building new houses over the powdered remains of the old should they so choose to. Whether or not they would is a different matter altogether, but conventional explosives don't have the same poisoning effect on the environment that nukes do.

Even nukes couldn't make an area seriously uninhabitable forever; Hiroshima and Nagasaki have bustling populations today, for instance, despite the tragedies of 1945. From what I can gather, this is mostly because a nuclear bomb doesn't leave behind nearly as much radioactive material as a reactor like the ones in Chernobyl or Fukushima. Even fallout can be mostly prevented by detonating the bomb high in the air as opposed to on the ground, but even in the worst case scenario, as long as a city isn't continually pulverized with dozens of nukes, the area will become habitable after about a decade. (Albeit with slightly higher chances of cancer or leukemia, but these chances too dissipate after another decade.)

So overall, some cities would be destroyed, and some of their ruins would run a slight risk of giving you leukemia, but we're talking about nothing as dramatic as enormous glowing fields of lethal radiation. Conventional explosives certainly wouldn't cause an area to become permanently uninhabitable, unless we're talking about an enormous number of mines being hidden in an area.

On a side note, Oregon too, from Megan's description, shouldn't exactly be uninhabitable. As long as none of the Epics there managed to poison the landscape, plants would start growing there again immediately, with animals close behind them. In an ironic turn of things, the wasteland of Oregon could become green and lush again within a few years, with the ashes left behind by the old battles nourishing new generations of trees. And that's assuming Megan wasn't giving in to hyperbole when she spoke of the entire state being equally demolished.

In this I am in full agreement. Calamity doesn't seem to use statistics as a base for his decisions; while we don't understand his criteria for choosing Epics, it seems very likely that these criteria do exist. While cities such as New York or Shanghai would obviously have a higher number of people to choose from, isolated tribes would be just as likely to manifest Epics, as would isolated research teams at the South Pole or the crews of submarines deep underwater.

True. I admit I hadn't considered all that; I think what I meant to say is that, nukes or no nukes, Australia wouldn't automatically be better off than the rest of the world. Sure they don't have nukes, but who's to say whole cities wouldn't be bombed by conventional means? And then there are Epics. As I said before, I really don't think Calamity uses numbers and numbers alone to guide his selection process, or at least he didn't back in the early days. There are people with traumatic pasts all over the world, and they--not to mention the efforts used to contain them--would do serious damage.

And I am no suddenly terrified at the thought of an underwater research team suddenly having one of their own gain Epic powers. :wacko:

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True. I admit I hadn't considered all that; I think what I meant to say is that, nukes or no nukes, Australia wouldn't automatically be better off than the rest of the world. Sure they don't have nukes, but who's to say whole cities wouldn't be bombed by conventional means? And then there are Epics. As I said before, I really don't think Calamity uses numbers and numbers alone to guide his selection process, or at least he didn't back in the early days. There are people with traumatic pasts all over the world, and they--not to mention the efforts used to contain them--would do serious damage.

And I am no suddenly terrified at the thought of an underwater research team suddenly having one of their own gain Epic powers. :wacko:

 

True. And I think we can all agree that...

 

f85abfb5dd302817fd2820ddcfea7835.jpg

 

That said, there would be definite advantages to living in Australia. Of all the continents, only Antarctica is more sparse of human habitation; while the Outback is undoubtedly a dangerous place to live on its own merits, vanillas could conceivably survive out there for years without having to worry about Epics, provided none of their own turn. In any kind of social upheaval it's better to be in a sparsely inhabited countryside than in a major city, and if you can set up a self-sufficient homestead in the middle of one of the Australian deserts, you're in a much better position than the average American.

 

 

Being trapped in confined spaces with an Epic mid-Rending would suck. Especially if he had the ability to summon giant squids to attack your submarine, just for added horror value. :blink:

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True. And I think we can all agree that...

f85abfb5dd302817fd2820ddcfea7835.jpg

That said, there would be definite advantages to living in Australia. Of all the continents, only Antarctica is more sparse of human habitation; while the Outback is undoubtedly a dangerous place to live on its own merits, vanillas could conceivably survive out there for years without having to worry about Epics, provided none of their own turn. In any kind of social upheaval it's better to be in a sparsely inhabited countryside than in a major city, and if you can set up a self-sufficient homestead in the middle of one of the Australian deserts, you're in a much better position than the average American.

Being trapped in confined spaces with an Epic mid-Rending would suck. Especially if he had the ability to summon giant squids to attack your submarine, just for added horror value. :blink:

Australians would definitely have all those advantages. What I quibble with (and I said I poorly) is the implication that Australia's government would handle the disaster better than other governments. I'm a real cynic where government is concerned, and while wealthy nations would have more resources to spend on the Epic problem, I'm of the opinion that every government would panic just as much when faced with an Epic like Steelheart. Just look at the US. Our government balks at any mention of giving a greater measure of power to the states, yet what do they do when Steelheart takes Chicago? They pass the Capitulation Act. That they called it the Capitulation Act and not something like the Cooperation Act or the Exemption Act shows just how scared they were. I think other politicians around the world would have similar reactions. The people in Australia would definitely have advantages, but governments would face similar problems no matter where they were.

Not to mention polar regions. Everyday conditions at the top and bottom of the world can kill an exposed human in seconds. Now imagine running from a veritable god with nothing but the gear you managed to grab on your way to the door.

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Australians would definitely have all those advantages. What I quibble with (and I said I poorly) is the implication that Australia's government would handle the disaster better than other governments. I'm a real cynic where government is concerned, and while wealthy nations would have more resources to spend on the Epic problem, I'm of the opinion that every government would panic just as much when faced with an Epic like Steelheart. Just look at the US. Our government balks at any mention of giving a greater measure of power to the states, yet what do they do when Steelheart takes Chicago? They pass the Capitulation Act. That they called it the Capitulation Act and not something like the Cooperation Act or the Exemption Act shows just how scared they were. I think other politicians around the world would have similar reactions. The people in Australia would definitely have advantages, but governments would face similar problems no matter where they were.

Not to mention polar regions. Everyday conditions at the top and bottom of the world can kill an exposed human in seconds. Now imagine running from a veritable god with nothing but the gear you managed to grab on your way to the door.

 

Hmm. I didn't pick up that kind of implication. I just think the average Australian would have higher prospects for survival than a person stuck in densely populated America or Asia.

 

(Was it officially called the Capitulation Act? All this time I've been assuming it was called something different but earned the nickname of "Capitulation Act." :huh:)

 

 

I'm... trying to imagine the horror there, and I see what you mean, but I get stuck when I imagine a crazed supervillain trying to chase you outside, only having to stop by the door to put on his own warm weather gear before he can step outside. And then trying to chase you through thick snow only to keep falling over in the snow, too padded up with thick weather clothes to get up easily. :P

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Hmm. I didn't pick up that kind of implication. I just think the average Australian would have higher prospects for survival than a person stuck in densely populated America or Asia.

(Was it officially called the Capitulation Act? All this time I've been assuming it was called something different but earned the nickname of "Capitulation Act." :huh:)

I'm... trying to imagine the horror there, and I see what you mean, but I get stuck when I imagine a crazed supervillain trying to chase you outside, only having to stop by the door to put on his own warm weather gear before he can step outside. And then trying to chase you through thick snow only to keep falling over in the snow, too padded up with thick weather clothes to get up easily. :P

The OP pointed out things like "a high level of wealth" and "an elite military force." Other countries have those too, albeit in different geographical conditions. I'm inclined to believe that precious few governments would survive the Epics, save for in a vestigial state. People would fare better in different locations, but Steelheart's first targets included the Chicago government.

Unless Calamity knew where they were and gave the Epic immunity to extreme cold. :o

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Most of the population here is clustered though, we have a low population density but mostly that's because the entire center of the country is a massive desert. So I don't know that there's necessarily less risk of running into an Epic.

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The OP pointed out things like "a high level of wealth" and "an elite military force." Other countries have those too, albeit in different geographical conditions. I'm inclined to believe that precious few governments would survive the Epics, save for in a vestigial state. People would fare better in different locations, but Steelheart's first targets included the Chicago government.

Unless Calamity knew where they were and gave the Epic immunity to extreme cold. :o

These "better" condition might actually make the destruction of the place worse. Sure you can put up a fight against Epics for longer but guess what happens if you fight against powerful Epics like Obliteration, Steelheart or even Regalia. They cause massive destruction.

You fight them for longer? Congratulations, you just gave them even more reasons to blow stuff up. As cynical as it may sound, a fast and decisive victory causes less damage to infrastructure and civilians. So if Epics win anyway, and they have, let them win fast.

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Australians would definitely have all those advantages. What I quibble with (and I said I poorly) is the implication that Australia's government would handle the disaster better than other governments. I'm a real cynic where government is concerned, and while wealthy nations would have more resources to spend on the Epic problem, I'm of the opinion that every government would panic just as much when faced with an Epic like Steelheart. Just look at the US. Our government balks at any mention of giving a greater measure of power to the states, yet what do they do when Steelheart takes Chicago? They pass the Capitulation Act. That they called it the Capitulation Act and not something like the Cooperation Act or the Exemption Act shows just how scared they were. I think other politicians around the world would have similar reactions. The people in Australia would definitely have advantages, but governments would face similar problems no matter where they were.

Not to mention polar regions. Everyday conditions at the top and bottom of the world can kill an exposed human in seconds. Now imagine running from a veritable god with nothing but the gear you managed to grab on your way to the door.

 

i don't think our wealth or military would help much, but what country is going to be slightly more able to kill Epics before collapsing? Australia or, say, Somalia? That's all i meant.

 

The OP pointed out things like "a high level of wealth" and "an elite military force." Other countries have those too, albeit in different geographical conditions. I'm inclined to believe that precious few governments would survive the Epics, save for in a vestigial state. People would fare better in different locations, but Steelheart's first targets included the Chicago government.

Unless Calamity knew where they were and gave the Epic immunity to extreme cold. :o

i think it would help, but not a great amount. In Steelheart it was mentioned that the US government still held sway in a few small areas, barely. If they can do it while in a densely populated nation (and thus surrounded by Epics), then Australia could do it by pulling back to Darwin or Western Australia, where there are much less Epics to kill. The east coast would be screwed of course, but few Epics would bother crossing the huge desert in the middle unless they can fly.

I'm not saying that Australia is fine and dandy and has its epic population under control, but looking at all these factors they should be at least a bit better off than the FSA, although still an Epic-ridden, post-apocalyptic wasteland.

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What really interests me is thinking about what non-American Epics might be like. Considering Firefight shows us at least two major Epics that seem to practice a twisted version of Christianity, are there any Muslim Epics ruling in Africa or the Middle East? Hindu Epics claiming to be the final avatar of Vishnu? Epics from areas that predominantly practice shamanistic religions, believing that their powers are gifts from nature spirits?

 

How many Epics would continue conflicts from pre-Calamity days? Might a militant Palestinian Epic be inclined to teleport into Israel and start slaughtering Israelis? Would some ongoing wars in the Middle East and other turbulent areas halt immediately, or would they drag on as soldiers from both sides become Epics and seek to violently put an end to the fighting?

 

And of course, my personal favorite question to ponder: are there any animals that can gain powers? Gorillas have been shown to not only be capable of experiencing traumas and fears, but also of remembering them for years afterward. Is it not possible that Calamity's fear-seeking sense might pick up on the trauma of a gorilla and drive him to grant the poor ape powers and the corruption that goes along with them?

...

OK, probably not. I just like the mental image of a superpowered gorilla flying out of the jungle and dispensing simian justice on bushmeat hunters. :P

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What really interests me is thinking about what non-American Epics might be like. Considering Firefight shows us at least two major Epics that seem to practice a twisted version of Christianity, are there any Muslim Epics ruling in Africa or the Middle East? Hindu Epics claiming to be the final avatar of Vishnu? Epics from areas that predominantly practice shamanistic religions, believing that their powers are gifts from nature spirits?

 

How many Epics would continue conflicts from pre-Calamity days? Might a militant Palestinian Epic be inclined to teleport into Israel and start slaughtering Israelis? Would some ongoing wars in the Middle East and other turbulent areas halt immediately, or would they drag on as soldiers from both sides become Epics and seek to violently put an end to the fighting?

 

And of course, my personal favorite question to ponder: are there any animals that can gain powers? Gorillas have been shown to not only be capable of experiencing traumas and fears, but also of remembering them for years afterward. Is it not possible that Calamity's fear-seeking sense might pick up on the trauma of a gorilla and drive him to grant the poor ape powers and the corruption that goes along with them?

...

OK, probably not. I just like the mental image of a superpowered gorilla flying out of the jungle and dispensing simian justice on bushmeat hunters.  :P

 

I think some would, especially people who are already hard-line like Obliteration probably was. But mostly Epics seem too selfish to worry about causes or their nations. Obliteration seems a bit of a special case, although probably not a unique one.

Ongoing wars and turbulence would probably devolve into more widespread and chaotic fighting as Epics fight amongst themselves and with human servants. Most causes probably disappear, but I'm picturing some radical ISIS leader getting powers and taking over, leading them on an even more radical and cruel crusade, with Epics and a High Epic at their head.

 

 

 

I think there is the ratio is less than 1 : 1000, maybe more like 1 : 5000

 

Because in Firefight they say there's only a few new epics a ear in the huge city of Newcago.

 

yeah, but it also says that the vast majority of Epics manifested throughout the first year they started appearing.

 

Maybe 1:1000 is off, in fact probably it is. But there are thousands of Epics in Newcago, and dozens of High Epics. With Steelheart taking over it at the end of the Epic rush period, most Epics in the city and state probably went to Newcago, where they were relatively safe and there was little fighting. So the Epic numbers should be similar to pre-Annexation times, as opposed to severely depleted like more war-torn areas. So it just feels right to me.

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I think there is the ratio is less than 1 : 1000, maybe more like 1 : 5000

 

Because in Firefight they say there's only a few new epics a ear in the huge city of Newcago.

David said there are thousands of Epics in Newcago, which if it has a roughly similar amount of people as it does today means that 1:1000 seems pretty accurate.

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David said there are thousands of Epics in Newcago, which if it has a roughly similar amount of people as it does today means that 1:1000 seems pretty accurate.

 

And, if we're basing the 1:1000 ratio off of the current population, this almost certainly means the ratio at the time of the series might be lower. Regalia killed tens of thousands when she flooded Manhattan. Obliteration killed tens of thousands when he destroyed those cities. Steelheart, by the time the first book begins, has 17,000 deaths to his name. Other Epics killed fewer, true, but those deaths do add up, so by the time Steelheart begins, Epics' tendency to treat non-Epics as expendable has most likely lowered the Epic-to-human ratio. 

 

Of course, if we're basing the 1:1000 ratio off the population in the books, ignore me. 

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And, if we're basing the 1:1000 ratio off of the current population, this almost certainly means the ratio at the time of the series might be lower. Regalia killed tens of thousands when she flooded Manhattan. Obliteration killed tens of thousands when he destroyed those cities. Steelheart, by the time the first book begins, has 17,000 deaths to his name. Other Epics killed fewer, true, but those deaths do add up, so by the time Steelheart begins, Epics' tendency to treat non-Epics as expendable has most likely lowered the Epic-to-human ratio. 

 

Of course, if we're basing the 1:1000 ratio off the population in the books, ignore me. 

 

 

Yeah, but the current epic population would correspond to the pre-Calamity vanilla population better than it would correspond to the current vanilla population. Vanillas have died far far more than Epics have. so while Newcago might have only a few tens of thousands (which is what Prof implies in Firefight when he says "tens of thousands of lives will be on your head" to David) or hundreds of thousands, there were roughly 3.6 million (and thus 3600 Epics) in Chicago before Annexation. Therefore, the "thousands of Epics" remark makes sense. So we have little idea how much the human population of Newcago has been reduced/increased by immigrants, but the Epic population should have decreased much, much less (given their protected status, and immigration of Epics to Newcago).

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I do remember them mentioning Germany when talking about their guns.

 

I would like to argue that Africa might ended up being the best place live. Some of those people are used to the kinds of things that the epics do, so they would already be somewhat used to it? Just an idea.

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I don't think humans can ever "get used to" things like child soldiers and constant war. I mean, you can find ways of adjusting society around them--I guess some schools in war-torn areas have "war days," where school is cancelled because it's too dangerous to attend--but that sort of horror isn't something people get used to.

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Africa tends to not be as bad as people make out. But compared to the US in terms if resources and military power, they are going to have a much worse time handling epics and will likely collapse much sooner, killing fewer Epics first.

Of you think about it, lots of Epics would have been killed before the government passed the capitulation act. Consider Deathpoint: no defensive powers, but was acting like a High Epic. If Steelheart hadn't of shown up, either David's dad or the swat that arrived soon after would have killed him, although he would have taken a few down first. How many Epics died during or soon after their Rendings? At the beginning, probably a decent amount, if they weren't invincible.

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Brandon answered in an AMA recently, and confirmed a few things:

 

1) Newcago has a current population of 250'000

2) there are 1000 Epics in Newcago at the start of Steelheart

 

and biggest of all

 

3) the Epic/human ratio is 1:10'000 at the beginning.

 

I am honestly quite surprised, its taken me a few days to grapple with the idea. This is less Epics than I had thought by an order of ten. 

 

This implies a few things to me.

 

1) there are less "minor Epics" than I, at least, thought.
I was thinking that a large amount of Epics had minor, or even useless abilities (like Curveball, but potentially no combat application). But if there are 31'890 Epics in the US roughly, and a large amount were useless, how on earth was it destroyed? We know Steelheart killed 17'000, so he makes up for only one useless Epic. Obliteration and Regalia probably make up for a few each as well, but what about the rest? How could the Epics kill so many people if so many Epics have barely any extra combat ability than humans? Therefore, I surmise that the number of useless/minor Epics is relatively small, perhaps 20-30% of all Epics.

 

2) There are more High Epics than I thought. 

I was thinking that High Epics are 1:1000 with normal Epics. But if there are a thousand normal Epics in Newcago and a dozen Epics with a Prime Invincibility, perhaps the ratio is more like 1:100. This means that out of 31'890 Epics, there were 318 High Epics. Imagine 318 invincible gods (although not all of them with offensive powers to match their invincibility, like Fortuity who lacked offensive powers) running around the country, destroying everything and claiming cities for their own. The alternative is 32 High Epics which seems very unlikely. 

 

So 1% of Epics are High, 20-30% are useless, 10% are (as confirmed in another question) possessed of both useful and unique powers, that leaves 59-69% of Epics left. Now, these Epics do not have Prime Invincibilities, and they don't have useless powers. That is between 18'800-22'000 Epics with potentially very destructive powers and limited (not perfect) defensive abilities. Regalia for one had no defensive powers, but killed many, many people. Earthquake Epics who could destroy cities were mentioned, chances are they did, in their rendings especially. The tragedy in Nepal has shown us how bad an earthquake can be in the wrong place. Weather Epics causing tornadoes, fire Epics creating city-sized infernos, super-strong and tough Epics smashing everything around them. 

Its easy to see both how the government lasted only a year with Epics popping up in greater numbers. They could kill some

 

 

Now I'm curious who the first Epic was. Who was the very first person to manifest powers? What were their powers? Useful? Powerful? I think they would have been mid-level, without a PI. That way everyone can be confused, scared, baffled, but eventually kill him/her. Everyone is a flutter. Then it happens again. And again. And again. Each time a worse massacre than the last. Soon entire towns or cities are being destroyed in Rendings, not to mention the destruction the Epics do if they survive the response. Then High Epics start appearing, impervious to bullets. And THEN, people get really worried.

I'm just imagining the early days, before the Collapse, where the media is only talking about the latest Epic massacre until they are too frequent to mention. The internet, filling with bloody memes about Epics.... 

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