Vin and Elend - Why?

[oak253]

I just finished reading the Mistborn trilogy one week ago, and what a ride it was. After I reached the last page, I put my Kindle down and just sat there, stunned. Fantasy is filled with epic tales, to the point where one can get easily jaded, but few deliver in raw emotion and impact like Mistborn did. At least, it did for me.

And the primary reason why I found the story so riveting? It wasn't the magic (although very cool) or the world ending or the fantastical creatures or the battle scenes. It was the human relationships with all their shining moments, quirks, and flaws. The relationship that stands out on top is the bond between Vin and Elend. Their story alone is epic in and of itself. They are one of my favorite, if not THE favorite, couples in fiction.

Which is why I'm so baffled at the relative lack of fandom surrounding this couple. When I finished the books, I went online and eagerly searched for fandoms, fan clubs, forums where I could find similar fans who share my passion. To my surprise, there is very little out there. Even for the trilogy itself, there seems to be a smaller fanbase than I expected.

So my (somewhat rhetorical) question is: Why??

[Voidus]

Well we mostly talk about the mechanics of the cosmere, interesting pieces of information, magic systems, etc. most of the time, but I think if you asked most of us would probably be quite big fans of Vin and Elend, although I do agree that usually there'd be a bigger fanbase of it, someone should get started organising that.

[Aethling]

Easier to do for a couple that still has books in the pipe or that didn't pass away

For Vin and Elend, there is no "what's next." Richard and Kahlan still have that. Major characters from WoT have it, but others don't. Garion and Ce'Nedra still have it. Percy and Annabetha still have it. Sarene and Raoden still have it. Lawhead intentionally separates a lovingly married couple in the last book of one of his series, and there is absolutely no way they will even get back together.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Aethling

[cleric]

This is a good question. They were amazing characters and my favorite of the Sanderson romances. I have to agree that their story being finished may be a part of it. That and the fact that with how much Brandon writes and how amazing his characters are, you just get hooked on the next ones.

Have to say my reaction was different than yours. When I finished the mistborn trilogy first thing I did was throw the book across the room. I was pissed that they died. Then I picked it up and re read the book. Became iconic in a way that they both died and how they died. You do get that little nod at the end that they are happy together in the after life though so that was nice.

[Aethling]

Exactly, Cleric. I swore off of reading any further of his books for quite a while after what happened. I think he explained it in an annotation as his way to prove that none of his characters were ever safe. Indeed, the only fantasy books of his that I have read where he did not kill off a major character were Kings and Alloy. Both of those are the start of something, so he just hasn't had time to get there.

[oak253]

Thanks to all who responded, for humoring me. I suppose that the fact they die at the end has something to do with it -- their story has been told, and there's definitely a sense of finality.

I love bittersweet endings, and Mistborn is no exception. I think if Sanderson somehow made it so that Vin and Elend survived, he would not have done justice to the ending. To paraphrase Theodore Roosevelt, nothing worth doing is ever easy.

That said, I do kind of hate the fact that Elend (and therefore Vin) dies. I've re-read the books, but I stopped before reaching Vin's final battle with the Inquisitors in Luthadel. I can't bring myself to read the ending again, at least not so soon. When I eventually do, it'll have to be in a quiet place where I won't be interrupted

[Observer]

I've seen a few threads with some quiet speculations about Harmony finally figuring out how to bring back the dead and giving Vin and Elend a nice, far-away hut to actually live a decent life in for once. I guess it's always nice imagine.

[Yados]

Which is why I'm so baffled at the relative lack of fandom surrounding this couple. When I finished the books, I went online and eagerly searched for fandoms, fan clubs, forums where I could find similar fans who share my passion. To my surprise, there is very little out there. Even for the trilogy itself, there seems to be a smaller fanbase than I expected.

There's a growing Tumblr fandom if you look hard enough. This place is mostly for turbo-nerds who want to talk magic shop and cosmere theories.

If I had to guess, I'd say that part of this is is because a sizable portion of Mr. Sanderson's readership comes from his finishing of Wheel of Time, the author of which was *very* against fan fic, the basis of most fandoms. But that's probably only a part of it.

As is the best response to these sorts of things, if it doesn't exist you should make some!

I know there's some little initiative to write cosmere fanfic on tumblr. Join in! Or at least encourage it.

[cleric]

Exactly, Cleric. I swore off of reading any further of his books for quite a while after what happened. I think he explained it in an annotation as his way to prove that none of his characters were ever safe. Indeed, the only fantasy books of his that I have read where he did not kill off a major character were Kings and Alloy. Both of those are the start of something, so he just hasn't had time to get there.

Not quite, He said he hates it when people kill of characters just to raise the stakes or to show they can. While it is a shock when they die they both die awesome heroic deaths that really mean something to them and the story. I dont mind when characters die, it adds to the world. as long as it has meaning.

[firstRainbowRose]

I'll come from the other side and give some insight into why I dislike this couple so much. For me, (and mind, I haven't read these in a while so this is subject to change) I dislike them as a couple because you never really see them fall in love. It's very obvious they will end up together, but most of the time that they spend at the balls is shown off screen. So, for me I dislike them because it doesn't seem real. Either that, or else I'm also drawn to the topic that was either here or TWG (I get them mixed up) that said they were rather passionless, and I rather agreed with it. It's true that it's a bit more realistic in that it's not over the top gush, but it also seems rather more like friends than potential lovers for a lot of their time together. (At least from Vin's side. From Elend's side, I remember that being a lot more emotional.)

[Dutch Wives]

Have to say my reaction was different than yours. When I finished the mistborn trilogy first thing I did was throw the book across the room. I was pissed that they died. Then I picked it up and re read the book. Became iconic in a way that they both died and how they died. You do get that little nod at the end that they are happy together in the after life though so that was nice.

I'll come from the other side and give some insight into why I dislike this couple so much. For me, (and mind, I haven't read these in a while so this is subject to change) I dislike them as a couple because you never really see them fall in love. It's very obvious they will end up together, but most of the time that they spend at the balls is shown off screen. So, for me I dislike them because it doesn't seem real. Either that, or else I'm also drawn to the topic that was either here or TWG (I get them mixed up) that said they were rather passionless, and I rather agreed with it. It's true that it's a bit more realistic in that it's not over the top gush, but it also seems rather more like friends than potential lovers for a lot of their time together. (At least from Vin's side. From Elend's side, I remember that being a lot more emotional.)

This was more along my thoughts and reaction as well. I thought the love blooming in The Final Empire was quite believable, but after that I only saw flashes and as a whole wasn't moved by them as a couple.

I suppose this was influenced by me finding Elend increasingly distasteful (which I do lament) through the books. Far too self-righteous for my liking. He is a very very good character though.

Vin on the other hand I connected with immensely, and it wasn't the fact she died that made me angry, still makes me angry (I'm burning up right now phwoarrrr haha :P/>/>/> ), is that I thought she would make a perfect god (Especially for Preservation) with all that compassion and goodwill and belief in others.

And suddenly she was gone, and it fell to Sazed. Sazed, who who had hardly felt or understood love or relationships until Tindwyl (Which I found very believable :D/>/>/> ). I guess you could say the same for Vin but I believe she had much more of a sense for this.

But I suppose it's all in my opinion on what would make a good god. Scadrial couldn't be remade without Sazed's metal minds, I know, and he's probably going to figure into things in the future but.... maaaaaaaaan! :lol:/>/>/>

Please excuse my semi-rant lol. I'm new here. Hi! I've never actually felt so strongly about a character dying in a book. Emotions are supposed to be irrational, right? :D/>/>/>

Edited January 31, 2013 by Dutch Wives

[Lady_Yasha]

Easier to do for a couple that still has books in the pipe or that didn't pass away

For Vin and Elend, there is no "what's next." Richard and Kahlan still have that. Rand, Min, Aviendha, and Elayne still have that. Garion and Ce'Nedra still have it. Percy and Annabetha still have it. Sarene and Raoden still have it. Lawhead intentionally separates a lovingly married couple in the last book of one of his series, and there is absolutely no way they will even get back together.

APPLAUSE FOR YOU AND YOUR WoT SPOILERS! Dangit.

Personally I don't bother with fan-fiction, purely because I don't think anyone can write the characters as good as the author himself. Fan-fiction set in the world, yeah, that's why I'm a member of MBI, but I've never searched out fan material around the main characters before; mostly I wouldn't agree with the perspective anyone wrote.

I imagine there's not a lot of FF for this relationship for what RainbowRose says: people might not have been affected by the romance as much as you were. I found the dynamic between the two interesting but it wasn't developed as obviously as some romances I've read.

[Senor Feesh]

I actually find it quite shocking at the reaction a lot of people seem to have to Vin Elend's death at the end of the trilogy. Personally, I find 'Happily Ever After' endings immensely distasteful and unsatisfying, as I just don't believe them. Maybe I'm just a cynic, or a sucker for tragedy, but I honestly can't see how any ending where the two of them end up living in bliss would have been more satisfying than the pair laying down their lives for the greater good of everyone on Scadrial.

(Off-topic) Also, don't get me started on the movie ending for Stardust *puke* read the book, that's the REAL ending.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Senor Feesh

[Oudeis]

I am very much in love with the Vin/Elend relationship, with the ending, with their fate, and all of it. I don't talk about it here a lot because, as has been mentioned, this is more a metaphysics crushing forum. But I consider their relationship to be the most 'real' relationship I've read in a book, ever.

Clearly, some people would prefer fairy-tale romance where they live happily ever after, or bodice-ripping romance where it's crazy irrational passion and love at first sight. If that's what you prefer, that's a valid preference, but I've seen a lot of people dissing this love story just because it's not their personal preference. Please try to be civil.

I saw in this what you'd see in real life; two people meet, they find each other intriguing, they have some silly moments (look at Elend's scene where he first learns that Vin is probably trying to rob him), there's no greater obstacle to their own happiness than themselves. They get over it, they get over the insecurities and the fear, and they commit because of how much they have in common.

They are both heroes. They are both people who would sacrifice everything to save the people of Scadrial, and it was powerful and meaningful that they did.

Harmony finding a way to "bring them back" would absolutely cheapen their sacrifice to the point of meaninglessness, the way death in DC or Marvel comic books has lost all meaning because they don't even pretend it's anything other than temporary.

[oak253]

If I had to guess, I'd say that part of this is is because a sizable portion of Mr. Sanderson's readership comes from his finishing of Wheel of Time, the author of which was *very* against fan fic, the basis of most fandoms. But that's probably only a part of it.

You're probably right. I was getting that vibe when browsing for fan material.

Thanks all for replying with your points of view. I can see why some people feel that Vin and Elend's relationship is lacking in passion, but I agree the most with Darnam--it's the most realistic relationship that I've read in fiction, and as a result the most moving. I think it's pretty clear that there is a very strong bond between the two, especially when you consider the type of person Vin is. She's far less emotionally expressive than Elend, but when you look at her actions, you can see her feelings for him are quite profound. She spent the first 17 years of her life enduring abuse and betrayal, and less than a year learning to trust people and build friendships. Even with Kelsier's crew, the only people she really trusted with anything important were Kelsier and Sazed--Kelsier first, with some difficulty, and Sazed later, after he saved her from her first encounter with the Inquisitors at Kredik Shaw. It's notable that when she first meets Elend, she feels comfortable enough with him for the "real" Vin to come out, and she had a strong desire to trust him after that. For Vin, trust = love, and the people she does trust are rather special. Elend was particularly special because he didn't have to do anything specific to earn her trust--it was an instant connection between them. And in Book 2, obsessively guarding him against assassins and worrying about his safety all the time was how she showed her love. She would never have acted that way for anyone else. Unfortunately, that also meant she was well on her way to co-dependency until she figured out her own personal issues and learned the part of being able to love was also being able to trust enough to let go.

I think Sanderson did a great job with Vin - few men write the female perspective well, especially with the more complex characters.

@Senor Feesh: I also agree that the ending was perfect, and shouldn't be any other way. It's just that I became attached to the main characters and it was hard to see them die. Elend especially, since he was my favorite character. Sanderson is a genius for writing him the way he did--a normal man who played a vital role in shaping the post-TLR world, and even having Mistborn powers didn't make him invincible, only somewhat less vulnerable.

Darnam said "this is more a metaphysics crushing forum." Does that mean that's the main purpose of this forum? Or that most forum discussions happen to be more about Allomancy and world mechanics?

[Rubix]

Darnam said "this is more a metaphysics crushing forum." Does that mean that's the main purpose of this forum? Or that most forum discussions happen to be more about Allomancy and world mechanics?

That is absolutely not the main purpose of the forum. Many forum discussions have leaned towards the realm of the theoretical lately, but that's never been the intent.

We're looking into possible solutions.

[LessThanGeorge]

The Mistborn-Vin series ends in a similar fashion to how it begins. Brandon said he found the concept of a fantasy story where the promised hero fails and the world plunges into chaos to be highly intriguing. This meaning Alendi's downfall, and the rise of the oppressive Final Empire. Thus, Vin and Elend's deaths brought the trilogy full circle, except that the series ended on a higher note than it began, for the simple fact that their deaths meant something.

Additionally, their deaths were completely in character; one of the recurring themes in the series is sacrifice. Vin and Elend spent much of the series fighting to save Scadrial, and are absolutely the type of people who would not hesitate to give up their lives if it meant saving the world; the sacrifice was completely in line with their morals.

The Mistborn-Vin series had an ending that was happy, yet imperfect. Vin and Elend's deaths were necessary; Scadrial was in such dire peril that defeating Ruin without sustaining major casualties would have been too convenient, and would have diluted the ending had Vin and Elend survived. I would say that, objectively, the main characters' deaths were finely done and a vital element of the series' greatness.

[king of nowhere]

to me the ending is happy. the mention of an afterlife makes all the difference. ok, they died, but with a verifiable afterlife that's not that bad. I picture them in the afterlife with kelsier and mare, a happy family.

plus, their deaths were necessary to the story.

I can see some people not liking the way they fall in love, but I disagree with them.

True, in the first book it felt rather artificial. But in book 2 I really got the impression that they would make a fine couple. even when they were growing apart, even if they have nothing in common. sometimes I feel two people are made for each other, and vin and elend gave me that feeling. They complete each other pretty well.

also, the way they come to like each other is pretty believable when you come to think of it. both were young, and both had little experience in relationships. To Vin, elend was the first boy she ever met that she could think of as a romantic interest. Before, she only had to worry about not being raped. To elend, Vin was the first girl he met that was intersted in him as a person and not as a way to power or money. it make sense that they are attracted, even if they were horribly matched. many couples among teenagers start with much shakier bases, and break down after a while.

So now I think it makes a lot of sense that they fell for each other just for being there, and that they were just lucky to be actually good for each other.

Also, I read plenty of books, and sanderson is the only one who writes romance that makes sense from my point of view. Look at the wheel of time. Why the hell elayne, min and aviendha love rand? because the pattern says so. elayne confess falling for rand just after meeting him; just that. Also faile with perrin was basically a taveren influence and very hard to believe otherwise. The only couple I can see as real in the whole series is Bryne and Siuan, and even them not very much.

And, while being a fan of terry pratchett, I have to say his way of handling romance is even worse. in his books characters seem to date just because they are supposed to. I'm thinking in particular of moving pictures: for all the book I had no idea what the main characters found attractive in each other. to me they just sounded plain wrong.

And plenty of other books I read where the hero and the girl got together at the end of the story just because. quite unsatisfying.

Maybe because sanderson has a mind quite similar to mine in many ways, but his books are among the very few fictions where I see people falling in love and can understand why.

[happyman]

Well, this forum has been expressing my thoughts beautifully.

I would like to add a thought that I first expressed back on the now-defunct time-waster's forum.

In the course of trying to save the world, Vin and Elend both made the hard decisions, allowing people to die for what they saw as the greater good. The reader often agreed with them that this was the right decision, but morally and emotionally, it was still hard. By having the two of them show that they meant it, deep down where it really, really matters, by giving their own lives, they proved that their decisions were, in the end, truly moral. They did what they had to.

[little wilson]

I agree with most of what's been said. I absolutely adore Vin and Elend. Elend himself is one of my all-time favorite literary characters. He's just fantastic....and it broke my heart a little when he died (not to mention how he died. I mean, really. Decapitation? Via Marsh? It still pains me think about that). I flew through the end of the book in shock. When I finished it, I didn't even know what to think. I hated it, but at the same time, I knew it was a good ending. I just didn't like it. And then I re-read the ending and noticed something I'd missed--Sazed reconnecting Elend's head, and them holding hands in the field. And that made me feel a little better, since the image I'd had in my mind was of a headless Elend, and I can't even describe how I felt about that.

After that, and through some discussions at TWG about this, I understood that their deaths had to happen, and I realized that it wasn't really their deaths then that bugged me. It was that there was nothing more for them, just like someone above mentioned. Their story was over. Completely. I mean, at least if they'd had a kid, it would've felt a little like their story was still continuing, through their child. But no. There was nothing.

A part of me still wishes they had've had a child. But at the same, I know that wouldn't have worked. Their priorities were saving Scadrial; not having children. Children would've thrown off the whole story. Even the characters who survived who had kids didn't start on that until after the world was remade.

So yeah. For me, the ending is very bitter-sweet. It's great, but it's terrible. I love it, but I hate it too. And for all of that, I wouldn't change one bit of it. The story is phenomenal, and the ending is perfect for the story.

[Vortaan]

Personally I never really felt drawn to either Vin or Elend as characters, so their relationship was something I wasn't particularly interested in. I honestly was more interested in the relationship between Breeze and Allriane, Sazed and Tindwyl, and the Marsh/Mare/Kelsier triangle. Particularly that last one, as it set a lot of attitudes in the story, both between Marsh and Kelsier, but also Marsh towards Vin. I'm actually also really liking Steris/Wax and Dalinar/Navani, and maybe that's because both are relationships that either challenge or uphold societal norms.

[Arachiel]

Which is why I'm so baffled at the relative lack of fandom surrounding this couple. When I finished the books, I went online and eagerly searched for fandoms, fan clubs, forums where I could find similar fans who share my passion. To my surprise, there is very little out there. Even for the trilogy itself, there seems to be a smaller fanbase than I expected.

So my (somewhat rhetorical) question is: Why??

You have a DeviantART page? Let's start a VinxElend fan group!

[thecatinthehat]

After all, there already is Vin hentai.

Well, it is only one image, but it is.

[Athelia]

I had the raging tearful reaction too... Elend is one of my favorite characters of all time, along with Sam Gamgee and Faramir (he rather reminds me of Faramir, actually) in LotR, because he's just so GOOD. The only thing that kept me from throwing the book was that it belongs to my boyfriend (kinxer on 17th Shard!), who got me hooked on Sanderson in the first place, and I didn't want to mess up his book.

I just really wanted them to have children. Maybe I can just pretend they were able to do so in the afterlife somehow?  Like how the Greek gods had children, since Vin at least was a god for a little while...

 

Also, we need a much larger fanbase here. I'm thinking couples' t-shirts and things for Sanderfans that relate to Vin and Elend. And mugs with quotes. And lots of web graphics and things. And fanfic. Let's get to it!

[killersquirrel59]

They are both heroes. They are both people who would sacrifice everything to save the people of Scadrial, and it was powerful and meaningful that they did.

Harmony finding a way to "bring them back" would absolutely cheapen their sacrifice to the point of meaninglessness, the way death in DC or Marvel comic books has lost all meaning because they don't even pretend it's anything other than temporary.

For me it is somewhat similar to this sentiment. I loved them as a couple, mostly because from the beginning to the end they were so absolutely real. They were larger than life figures who did amazing things, but at the same time they were two deeply damaged individuals in their own ways. The scenes in Well of Ascension where both of them are coming to Sazed for relationship advice were absolutely pure atium (far more valuable than gold  ).

 

However I think it's something like what actually happened to the people of the world. They became far more than themselves. They became their own legends, far beyond the actual people. When something is deified, it loses a lot of that personal touch. I'm speaking of the fan base as well as the people of New Scadrial. We saw the whole process from without, but we saw both Vin and Elend become so much more than the two people they were originally. They truly became The Kind Emperor and The Ascendant Warrior. And I tend to think of them more in that role now than as the people they were, just like the Survivors, kind of like how even the Crew members who knew him started to think of Kelsier as The Survivor after he was gone. 

 

Side note however: it is worth noting that an afterlife of some kind is confirmed in Sazed's note to Spook, and he speaks of "our friends" which I can't imagine means anyone other than Vin and Elend given the context.

However, be assured that I have spoken with our friends, and they are quite happy where they are. They deserve a rest, I think.