Turos

Odium's Strength

44 posts in this topic

So here's some loose conjecture:

We have been told that Odium is the most power Shard of Adonalsium, correct?

We have been told that Rayse, the apparently current mortal holding the Shard of Odium was already a good fit for it as a rather bad dude, correct?

Is there a reason Odium is more powerful? I'm sure. I am wondering if the mortal acts as a sort of conduit for the Shard, allowing it to actually use its powers. In this assumption, a Shard can do nothing, or not nearly as much, without a body to inhabit.

If this is the case, would it not make sense that having a mortal as a host, being tied to the three Realms, who's spiritual attitude and determinations are aligned with that Shard's aspect thus allow the Shard to use its power to a fuller potential?

Translation: Is Odium stronger because his host is more like him than any other Shard's host is to those Shards?

Here's another thought. In the Way of Kings, the person in Dalinar's visions (I'm assuming it's Honor) mentions something interesting in reference to fighting Odium:

“You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain."

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 997). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

The thing about the champion is interesting, but I'm more interested by the "bound by some rules" thing. What ideas do you have as to what that implies?

Edited by Turos Stoneward
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I guess Realmatic Theory? We know Brandon prefers world-building with defined rules and structure. The champion bit may be tied into it as well somehow though - after all, look at Vin and Marsh.

I wonder if Raoden might be considered Devotion's champion. Or does a Shard need a holder to make that choice? If so, Honour would be without a champion as well, and I feel Kaladin is heading in that direction.

Sorry, no answers here, just more musings ^^

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So here's some loose conjecture:

We have been told that Odium is the most power Shard of Adonalsium, correct?

We have been told that Rayse, the apparently current mortal holding the Shard of Odium was already a good fit for it as a rather bad dude, correct?

Is there a reason Odium is more powerful? I'm sure. I am wondering if the mortal acts as a sort of conduit for the Shard, allowing it to actually use its powers. In this assumption, a Shard can do nothing, or not nearly as much, without a body to inhabit.

If this is the case, would it not make sense that having a mortal as a host, being tied to the three Realms, who's spiritual attitude and determinations are aligned with that Shard's aspect thus allow the Shard to use its power to a fuller potential?

Translation: Is Odium stronger because his host is more like him than any other Shard's host is to those Shards?

Here's another thought. In the Way of Kings, the person in Dalinar's visions (I'm assuming it's Honor) mentions something interesting in reference to fighting Odium:

The thing about the champion is interesting, but I'm more interested by the "bound by some rules" thing. What ideas do you have as to what that implies?

We have not been told he is the most powerful of shards. Brandon has explicitly said all of the shards are equal in power.

Rayse is especially deadly because his shard is "frightening and terrible" and because he is "loathsome, crafty, and dangerous" not because of any special power.

Odium is likely deadlier than other shards because he has a very offense oriented intent and because the man holding the shard is intelligent enough to use it well and manipulate people.

Harmony is, by far, the most powerful of the shards as he holds two shards. Harmony could likely defeat any shard with ease.

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We have not been told he is the most powerful of shards. Brandon has explicitly said all of the shards are equal in power.

Rayse is especially deadly because his shard is "frightening and terrible" and because he is "loathsome, crafty, and dangerous" not because of any special power.

Odium is likely deadlier than other shards because he has a very offense oriented intent and because the man holding the shard is intelligent enough to use it well and manipulate people.

Harmony is, by far, the most powerful of the shards as he holds two shards. Harmony could likely defeat any shard with ease.

Except that Ruin and Preservation oppose each other, which would make controlling both of them at the same time them difficult.

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Thought this would be useful to bring in this quote.

Source

Q: Is Harmony more powerful than other Shards?

Brandon: More powerful or more potent?

Me: Um, powerful.

Brandon: Harmony is two shards in one.

Me: Could he take Odium?

Brandon: His two shards are at odds with one another.

(This was interesting to me, from his name being Harmony I had assumed Ruin and Preservation merged seamlessly. Brandon seems to be implying that while Sazed can utilize the power of both shards, he can't simply add them together)

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The thing about the champion is interesting, but I'm more interested by the "bound by some rules" thing. What ideas do you have as to what that implies?

Well, presumably one of the rules is:

"Cannot manifest directly and lay waste to the planet"

otherwise he probably would have done so on Sel...

Maybe the Shards cannot mess with free will in mortals... (although Parshendi = Voidbringers would make that unlikely)

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Just a little more to add to why Odium might be more powerful.

Q: The fact that Odium has bested other shards implies he is more powerful. Is Odium inherently a more powerful shard or is it a matter of his nature?

Brandon: Both factors play a role.

edit: chopped the post

Edited by Elwynn
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^First of all, here's the link for that quote. As a rule, it's always good to make sure that there is a trail of breadcrumbs, so that people who haven't seen that quote can also see the (presumably new to them) interview it came from, as well as cite it directly in the future. :)

EDIT: Yes, it's from the same interview as Flash cited, but the principle remains.

Second, I would hazard that Odium has refrained from placing any of his power into anything, or at least any significant amount of it. Honor and Cultivation caused Spren (this may or may not have cost power in the long run), Ruin and Preservation created humans and animals (though it could be the case that the only thing that actually "cost" anything was Preservation specifically investing Humans with a "divine spark"), Endowment endows Returned, and Aona and Skai were probably doing something too.

So far as we know, Odium has not invested his power into anything. If he is directly responsible for the Voidbringers, then that is probably to a relatively small degree, as opposed to planet-wide investment of Investitures that do not directly benefit the ability of a Shard to combat other Shards.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Think about how easy it is to invest and nurture hate in humans. Odium's intent is one that doesn't require much effort to bring forth. If Odium has an advantage, it's because of that.

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Think about how easy it is to invest and nurture hate in humans. Odium's intent is one that doesn't require much effort to bring forth. If Odium has an advantage, it's because of that.

I agree completely and was just going to say that! :)/>

I wonder who could defeat Odium based on that principle? Devotion? Wasn't Devotion splintered?

Edited by Teegs
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Think about how easy it is to invest and nurture hate in humans. Odium's intent is one that doesn't require much effort to bring forth. If Odium has an advantage, it's because of that.

Ah, but that's because Odium's shardworld was modern Earth all along.

You maniacs!

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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Also, I was just reminded (by Nepene's new thread) that all the Shards were of equal power when they started out. So Odium either gained something or everyone else lost something in the intervening years.

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Also, I was just reminded (by Nepene's new thread) that all the Shards were of equal power when they started out. So Odium either gained something or everyone else lost something in the intervening years.

Sweetness 2. Just after the Shattering (but before they started created humans or something), did all Shards have roughly the same amount of raw power?

Brandon Sanderson Yes. Good question.

Technically that allows for some to be stronger than others from the start (if not hugely so).

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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They all have the same power but over differing domains. Preservation has as much power as Odium but could never use that power to kill a shard (without killing itself in the process). Odium, on the other hand...

There's also.existing.investitures that others have that Odium isn't saddled with. Odium may be able to actually use the investitures of other shards against them. How hard is it to turn a devoted man against Devotion itself when you ARE Hate?

Edited by Leuthie
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I haven't seen much speculation about the getting Odium to choose a champion line, but its always been of interest to me. Its not the kind of thing I'd expect Brandon to throw out there without reason - I really expect we will see Odium choose a champion at some point. And while there's every likelihood we haven't seen or met that character yet anyway, I wonder if there are any candidates from WoK. It could be very interesting if it turns out to be Szeth, for instance.

Just a random thought, we have way too little information to speculate about that in earnest yet. *Shrugs*

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I maintain that Szeth has to either die or join up with Kal pretty much in the next book, he'll be arriving at the same time as Shallan and Jasnah, and one Windrunner versus 3 (Possibly 4) other Surgebinders is not good odds for him. My money's on the return of KRs removing his Truthless status somehow.

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I maintain that Szeth has to either die or join up with Kal pretty much in the next book, he'll be arriving at the same time as Shallan and Jasnah, and one Windrunner versus 3 (Possibly 4) other Surgebinders is not good odds for him. My money's on the return of KRs removing his Truthless status somehow.

How hard could it be for Szeth to defeat an amateur Windrunner and 2 Soulcasters ?

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I'd say pretty difficult. Let's break it down like this.

Szeth's Assets:

  • Shardblade
  • Skillful Windrunner

Dalinar's Assets:

  • Kaladin - Novice Windrunner, possibly more efficient with Stormlight due to Second Oath. Master spearman, has defeated a Shardbearer before
  • Shallan - Novice Soulcasting abilities and a Shardblade
  • Jasnah - Skillful Soulcaster, can be used from a distance
  • Renarin - Plate, novice fighter
  • Adolin - Full Shardbearer, master duelist
  • Elite squad of former bridgemen
  • Cobalt guard

I think Dalinar's got a fighting chance, espeicially considering that he's no slouch himself, and has a few battalions of extremely loyal soldiers, some of which are also defending their families. To be fair, these guys won't be expecting him, and Szeth's killed hundreds of soldiers before.

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Keep in mind also that Kaladin hasn't just been lying idle while Szeth, Shallan and Jasnah arrived, they were going to start testing and exploring his abilities, as would Shallan and Jasnah. And against Jasnah Szeth's just going to get zapped into smoke three seconds after entering the room.

But more than anything else, they have 3 Surgebinders to absorb Stormlight, he is only one, which means he'll have 1/4th as much Stormlight as he thought he'd have.

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But more than anything else, they have 3 Surgebinders to absorb Stormlight, he is only one, which means he'll have 1/4th as much Stormlight as he thought he'd have.

Only Kaladin so far absorbs stormlight like Szeth does. The other two only use it up when they use there powers. That is significantly less advantage for Kaladin and co.

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But they use a lot more a lot faster, plus we don't know that they can't hold Stormlight, Jasnah wouldn't want to look to suspicious and Shallans only just started using her abilities, it took ages for Kal to glow noticeably.

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Odium's champion will end up being someone we don't expect. 10 books, Brandon likes his twists and turns. 

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I'm going to guess that odium's champion will be kaladin. 

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haha! good guess. Dalinar as honors and Kaladin as Odiums. Kaladin sure does hates him some lighteyes :)

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Szeth hates himself, hates his masters, and still serves dutifully. He's practically custom-built to be an Odium champion, enough that I wonder if Odium corrupted the Shin religion.

What human could come up with a punishment as nasty as Truthless? I know some people believe Cain was punished similarly by God, although more as a folktale than as a doctrine. (I'm clueless as to which religions it's most popular in; I only encounter it when an author uses it in fiction.) Brandon is probably drawing on that as a mythological parallel. But even then, no human punished Cain that way; it was a divine punishment for the first murder. I can't see human Shin ever coming up with something so horrible either, but a divine entity that's only Odium and nothing else -- that sure could. And since we know Odium is selfish and a schemer, he'd need a motive. Grooming Shin culture to produce a perfect champion could be the motive.

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