20130114 - Mandamon - The Seeds of Dissolution - Chapter 1

[Mandamon]

Hello all,

This is the first chapter of a book I'm rewriting from the ground up. It's got a sort of steep learning curve, so I'm trying to balance that with good character introduction. This is a rough-ish draft, so I'm not as worried about grammar, unless you see something glaring. Mostly I'm looking for understanding of the worldbuilding, excitement in the story, and interest in the characters. Let me know what you think.

[Syme]

Your world seems interesting with the interactions between the various species and the interplay between magic and technology. With the steam punkesque setting and the many different sentient species, your world reminds me a bit of Perdido Street Station, which is one of the books I'm currently reading.

There are two main problems I see with this beginning.

Number one, things are very confusing. You throw around invented words left right and centre, often without sufficient context to glean their meaning. I suggest trying to cut down on that as much as you can. Also there's some uproncouncable words(the most glaring offender is "Sasthssn"), which are almost always a bad idea.

The second thing is that it starts really slowly. For the first five or so pages, nothing happens, there is no real conflict. There's a small hint of conflict when Origon thinks that he would be better suited as pilot(?), but you don't really do anything with it here. I think you should focus more on this at the start and condense everything else.

Once we have the gunman in the picture, things start to get more interesting, but if I were an editor considering your manuscript or a potential customer browsing a bookstore or reading your sample chapter online, I'd have put down the book by then. However, I still think this story has a lot of potential and I'm looking forward to reading your next chapter.

[Esperzoa]

First off, I apologize in advance. I'm not exactly the most skilled at critiquing stories. I'm more of a reader than a reviewer, much less an editor.

I see what you meant by the steep learning curve. I feel like it's a bit too steep. Too much information is given all at once. It would be better, methinks, if you introduced information one bit at a time.

On a related note, I feel that the steep learning curve interferes somewhat with your characterization. It's hard to understand a character when I'm still trying to understand the setting in which he lives.

On a positive note, I can tell you put a solid effort into developing the setting, and I want to see more if it, and understand it better.

I like the work you did with the linguistics. I think it adds to the alien setting of the story.

You also did a nice job with making the different creatures feel alien without making then so different from humans that they're hard to understand.

On a personal note, I feel the concluding sentence is a bit weak. Just my opinion, but it feels a bit too wordy for a chapter ending.

Overall, I like the story. The setting seems very detailed. I'd love to see what happens next.

[Mandamon]

Thanks for the feedback!

I see what you meant by the steep learning curve. I feel like it's a bit too steep. Too much information is given all at once. It would be better, methinks, if you introduced information one bit at a time. On a related note, I feel that the steep learning curve interferes somewhat with your characterization. It's hard to understand a character when I'm still trying to understand the setting in which he lives.

There are two main problems I see with this beginning. Number one, things are very confusing. You throw around invented words left right and centre, often without sufficient context to glean their meaning. I suggest trying to cut down on that as much as you can.

Right. so I need to fix this. I think if I take out some of the new words, that might help. Did anything specifically confuse you the most?

For the first five or so pages, nothing happens, there is no real conflict. There's a small hint of conflict when Origon thinks that he would be better suited as pilot(?), but you don't really do anything with it here. I think you should focus more on this at the start and condense everything else. Once we have the gunman in the picture, things start to get more interesting, but if I were an editor considering your manuscript or a potential customer browsing a bookstore or reading your sample chapter online, I'd have put down the book by then.

I can shorten up the beginning a bit to get into the story quicker (and take out some of the invented words at the same time). I'm aiming for epic fantasy length, which always seems to take a lengthier view, showing the setting. Would you have the same opinion if you picked up a 500-page book in a bookstore and read this first chapter?

On a personal note, I feel the concluding sentence is a bit weak. Just my opinion, but it feels a bit too wordy for a chapter ending.

You caught me here. I split the chapter in two, as I realized it was twice as long as the other ones I was writing. ;-)

Also there's some uproncouncable words(the most glaring offender is "Sasthssn"), which are almost always a bad idea.

Yeah, that's a darling I need to kill. Oddly, I've never had problems with "Sasthssn," compared to some of the other names I created. Any others particularly rile you?

With the steam punkesque setting and the many different sentient species, your world reminds me a bit of Perdido Street Station, which is one of the books I'm currently reading.

That's been on my list to read. I haven't read any China Meiville yet, but that one just got moved to the top!

On a positive note, I can tell you put a solid effort into developing the setting, and I want to see more if it, and understand it better. I like the work you did with the linguistics. I think it adds to the alien setting of the story. You also did a nice job with making the different creatures feel alien without making then so different from humans that they're hard to understand.

Your world seems interesting with the interactions between the various species and the interplay between magic and technology.

Thanks for this. I think this is one of the parts I worked on longest and hardest in this book and I'm glad to see others picking up on it.

[Syme]

I can shorten up the beginning a bit to get into the story quicker (and take out some of the invented words at the same time). I'm aiming for epic fantasy length, which always seems to take a lengthier view, showing the setting. Would you have the same opinion if you picked up a 500-page book in a bookstore and read this first chapter?

Yes, I would. If the book were highly recommended to me or it's by an author I like, I'd be willing to slog through a slow beginning, but with a new writer I've never heard of before, I definitely would put down the book.

In the past you could get away with starting your fantasy epic with a birthday party, but fantasy has come a long way since then and readers rightfully expect a book to be interesting from page one.

Now if you're Brandon Sanderson, you can get away with having a book with three prologues, but until you have a few bestsellers under your belt, you probably shouldn't try that.

Yeah, that's a darling I need to kill. Oddly, I've never had problems with "Sasthssn," compared to some of the other names I created. Any others particularly rile you?

Well, "Sureriaj" is a bit problematic as well. If you read it very carefully, you can make out how it's probably pronounced, but it sort of breaks up the flow of reading.

That's been on my list to read. I haven't read any China Meiville yet, but that one just got moved to the top!

It wasn't really meant as a recommendation, merely an observation. Im about 60% into the book now and I'm not quite sure if I actually like it. To me, it's one of those books that you really want to like, but that for some reason fall short of being genuinely enjoyable. One of those books that you very much like having read but not necessarily like reading all that much.

[cjhuitt]

Unlike the others, I didn't think this story had so steep a learning curve that it would throw me off. I freely admit that I skipped a lot of the names, however, intending to note them more thoroughly if they became important later. While I'm thinking about it, however, the names of Sureriaj and Sasthssn, both (presumably) for species and both in the same sentence were a little too similar for my taste.

I do agree with Syme, however, that there needs to be more conflict earlier in the chapter. One possibility, other than just trimming down the beginning (always a good option if you can swing it) would be to have Origon sense some disturbance but not be able to track it down. That might give him some conflict, leading to the reveal of the gunman, and also show one aspect of his powers. If he fails, or fails to find them quickly enough, it might also show some of the limitations of the powers.

Some of the confusion I had with this was the setting, and in particular how the species found each other and interact. For example, references were made multiple times to this being the Methiemum homeworld, and yet nobody had made it to the stars yet? This apparent contradiction is presumably covered with the Nether, but near the end of the chapter I learned that Maji can make portals to where they had been. How, then, had the species ever started interacting? I realize there are an abundance of ways to cover this, and perhaps you don't want to have it in the first chapter, but it disturbed my sense of how this whole thing could be set up. One solution might be to simply trim the part about anyone being able to make portals and the knowledge propagating, and instead just state that the maji were going to the moon to make a portal, which would then allow them to bypass the costly and dangerous travel from the surface.

I was also confused at the idea that the Methiemum would somehow have a monopoly on some metals and minerals by being the only ones to get to their solar system. If the other races are from other systems, or even other planets in the same system, couldn't they do the same thing? Maybe not right away, but it would hardly be a complete monopoly.

Also in the mix at the beginning was the reference to Rilan being up there somewhere, and a brief reminisce that really doesn't have much effect. I think that part could probably be cut, and have Origon's reaction when he meets up with her later cover the fact that they knew each other before. Another aspect that could (probably) be withheld until later is the relationship between the colors and the personality of the user -- depending on how quickly it becomes important. I'd leave the statement of the colors themselves, just hold off on the further information.

As a throwaway line, you mention Origon knew generally what he would see of the shuttle, but don't explain how he was able to do this.

Near the end, the Captain refers to Origon as Kirian. That threw me at first, until I realized it must be his species name (referenced earlier, no doubt, but forgotten amongst all the other names).

A final note about the worldbuilding, Origon considers himself one of three or four maji who could do what he is able to do, both sensing the air and the other forms of power for it. However, he appears to have abilities in communication also. To me, that seemed like either he has more than two abilities, or if both air and power relate to the same house of magic, there should be more than just a handful who have the same abilities as he does. I presume for the setup of your story that his thoughts are more or less correct, which makes me think that perhaps it just needs to be phrased a little differently in the story, or perhaps a bit less detail on what exactly he can do is needed until some of the intricacies can be more fully explained?

My last bit of discussion is for when you get to revision. I noticed quite a few "as Origon saw it" and "he knew". Since this is all from Origon's POV, those probably aren't necessary, and in fact started to distract me. I also think they will subtly distance the reader from Origon's POV if there are too many of them in the text, since it means the narrative is thus somewhat distant from his POV as well.

[Mandamon]

Glad to see you reviewing again cjhuitt! Thanks for all the feedback.

The general editing notes are good. I'll keep those around for the first edit. Aside from that, it seems like you had two major issues:

1) You say you weren't bothered by the learning curve, but then skipped a lot of names and were confused later with Sureriaj, Sasthssn, Kirian, the colors, etc. This tells me I need to tone it down a lot, or make it clear these things will be explained later.

2) Questions for the future. A lot of the points you bring up are addressed as the book progresses. I want to just say RAFO, but I'm wondering if I need to tone down the questions some. Are you still interested enough to keep reading and find out, or have I asked too much without answering? With the amount of worldbuilding for this books, I was aiming for answering a lot of the basic questions within 50 pages or so.

The questions being:

-Species not having space flight yet (answered soon)

-How species from different planets met the first time (answered in ch 6 or 7)

-Methiemum being the only ones with spaceflight, thus having a monopoly on space minerals (I don't think I specifically addressed this? I meant to say they were the most technologically advanced...might need to edit that)

-How Origon knows about the shuttle (hinted at soon, answered ch 9, I think)

-How the Houses of magic work and connections to air/communication. (answered through the book as magic is explained)

[cjhuitt]

1) You say you weren't bothered by the learning curve, but then skipped a lot of names and were confused later with Sureriaj, Sasthssn, Kirian, the colors, etc. This tells me I need to tone it down a lot, or make it clear these things will be explained later.

[A] I thought the learning curve was steep, but not enough to put me off the story.

The things I mentioned were ideas for helping trim the learning curve some, if desired. In this case I think it would be a good idea to trim it some, because in general the more accessible a work is, the better.

2) Questions for the future. A lot of the points you bring up are addressed as the book progresses. I want to just say RAFO, but I'm wondering if I need to tone down the questions some. Are you still interested enough to keep reading and find out, or have I asked too much without answering? With the amount of worldbuilding for this books, I was aiming for answering a lot of the basic questions within 50 pages or so.

The questions being:

[c] Species not having space flight yet (answered soon)

[d] How species from different planets met the first time (answered in ch 6 or 7)

[e] Methiemum being the only ones with spaceflight, thus having a monopoly on space minerals (I don't think I specifically addressed this? I meant to say they were the most technologically advanced...might need to edit that)

[f] How Origon knows about the shuttle (hinted at soon, answered ch 9, I think)

[g] How the Houses of magic work and connections to air/communication. (answered through the book as magic is explained)

(I edited to add letters)

[c] I'd be willing to RAFO

[d] I'd be willing to RAFO, but the first two are quite intertwined. In particular for this one, however, the bit about needing (if I recall correctly) to have visited somewhere to make a portal raised a whole lot of questions in my mind, and a lot of them caused apparent contradictions in the worldbuilding. I'm not saying they are contradictions (or that they aren't), but that many causes me to wonder if the author really has everything together when they aren't addressed right away. My suggestion to remove most of the portal stuff other than "so we can put a portal on the moon" would, in effect, remove most or all of the contradictory questions from the first chapter, and give you more time to establish the world and its rules before raising the apparent contradictions. Alternately, some rephrasing might work two -- something as simple as calling it a level 1 portal, rather than a portal, implies there are others that are more capable, and thus isn't inherently raising as many questions for me.

[e] My problem with this was more that I don't think there are so many space minerals that aren't available on worlds as well (although potentially harder to obtain). In combination with the question about multiple species and no space flight, it started bothering me. A fairly simple fix here would also probably be to tweak the wording so that they have, not a monopoly, but an effective control due to the vast amounts and cheaper extraction possibilities.

[f] Not a big deal, but threw me for a bit. I'd actually suggest that a better way might be to have him be over-confident, and assume he knew what would be under there and thus have a bit of surprise, rather than be modest and not make assumptions and be correct. The whole thing about flaws being interesting and all.

[g] I'd be willing to RAFO, but as I mentioned in above, you could potentially reduce a smidge the learning curve by tweaking smaller parts of it. In essence, I'm not suggesting removing this, but focusing more on 1 or 2 important RAFOs about the magic, and minimizing the rest.