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aMoL full book discussion


Brendan

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I found the book to be really satisfying. It explained so many things, brought all the lines that seemed seperate together, all the explanations for the prophecies were great. There is just one thing that really bothered me, although it is a very small thing: The Tuatha'an. I really wanted to know about the song they are looking for and when Matt heard Rand sing in the garden I thought that this must be the song they mean. Sadly though, There was no conclusion to their search. And I was really disappointed when that Tuatha'an womans POV came and went without mention of the song. At least the Ogier seem to have discovered the same song or one very much like it, so perhaps that will help the traveling people find rest and stop searching.

Oh, and of course all of this may be baseless musing on my part and the song that Rand and the Ogier sing is completely unrelated to the one the Tinkers wish to find.

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Reread it already, and while I liked Egwene more in this book, her death is seem more and more deus ex machina.

We've never seen that weaves have opposites. Not once in the entire series. There is not a single water ball that negates the fireballs being thrown in near every battle.

A friend put it that Gawyn deserved the death Egwene got, and vice versa. I'm not sure I'd go that far, I liked her far more than ever before and really felt like she had some redeeming dialogue. But her death was a total deus ex machina device by the authors.

Still, no else thinks that a balefire-gateway infinite paradox would be possible?

I agree with those who feel that the Fain/Matt ending wasn't built up as well as it could have been.

Then I find myself wondering, when, exactly, such a buildup would be possible? I conclude that, with what RJ had left, there really wasn't any place to put it without throwing off the rest of the pacing, so I'll just have to take one climax which is a little too fast. What else could have been done?

How much more horrifying would the Shayol Ghol last battle have been if it wasnt just millions of more trolloc mooks, but evil mists and more of the channeling and vicious Aiel? I've liked Rodel Iturlade since he was introduced and think that this would have been a spot of Great Captain, out of the box thinking. It would have lent more urgency to that battle if the non-channelers were facing something that they could not fight, could not cope against instead of more trolloc mooks and the surprisingly non-scary red veiled Aiel. Why were the redveiled aiel used more to cause dissension, to drive wedges between the factions as tenuous Last Battlie Allies thought they were turning on one another.

Also Graendal was a little too disruptive against Amys, Aviendha, but most especially Alivia. Alivia the half-a-millenia-old, battle-tested former damane. The same Alivia who drove away Lanfear at Shadar Logoth. Graendel was ended well, I thought, but there was too much chaos from just her.

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Rand and the pipe just seemed to me more of him affecting the pattern directly. After all, it did come after he had some major instances of changing the pattern. His tav nature always seemed to manifest itself, but now he has a conscious ability to affect it without being a tav. How needs to weave when you can just will something into existance.

I have always felt that Sanderson and Jordan channeled a little Eddings. Sanderson moreso, and that seems like Rand's reward for allowing himself to be subject to the prophecies.

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  • 2 weeks later...

CAUTION: SPOILER ALERT! (I don't know how to do that Spoiler button I've seen in the other posts)

Just read through AMOL and BRAVO to Brandon Sanderson - very well done! I love his writing, and I am very happy with the ending of WoT. I do have a few questions:

1. Did Mandarb really die? He never explicitly writes Mandarb's supposed death. Perhaps he was deliberately ambiguous and leaves it for the reader to decide? On the one hand, to die displaying such heroics during the Last Battle would be honorable for this warrior of a horse. On the other hand, I REALLY wanted him to be able to live out that dream of retirement with Lan and Nynaeve's future kids riding on his back! And he was such a resourceful and badass horse - surely he could have made it out?

2. So Rand has entered the ultimate witness protection program. Does that mean he won't get to be a father to his kids? I mean, how is that gonna' work? If nobody is supposed to know his identity, and he starts hanging out with his kids, eventually people will put it together. It would not have bothered me when I first started reading the series 20 years ago, but it does now that I have kids of my own. That completely sucks if he can't see his kids. Is that the price to pay for being the ex-Dragon Reborn? Or maybe I should just accept that the hero rides off into the sunset and stop worrying about it too much.

3. Last, for a person who has very limited free time but devotes most of it to reading (and who ended up loving Sanderson's writing even more than Jordan's by the end of the series) what suggestions do other people have for similar series?

Edited by time traveler
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Rand himself wonders when they will try to catch up, so that is probably just going to be a few weeks or days. They can still follow him, and it should be fairly quick with gateways which two of the three can create. I don't see him being a father to the children to be all that much of an issue.

As for other books, nothing really compares to WoT. Sword of Truth is way more graphic, but it is fairly contemporary. Pretty much anything by Sanderson is good. I like him because all of his are fairly clean and suitable for all ages. If you read Eddings, you can start with either the Belgariad or the Elenium. The are two completely non-related series of his. Sullivan's Riyria Revelations books are good, but not up to the same epic quality. All six of those books combined are smaller than the AMOL trilogy. Some swear by Martin's series, but I didn't care too much for it and never finished the first 60 pages. If you want an interstitial series for use between major epics, Fablehaven is a nice quick YA read. Chima's Seven Realms series is good, but again YA. The Eragon books are good reads, though some do say it is too much LoTR and Star Wars. Kate Elliott is a good writer, but she seems fascinated by rape so much that she seems to include it is pretty much all of her books.

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I started reading this series about 16 years ago. I thought the ending was phenominal. Because of Sanderson's good work I read the Stormlight first book and loved it. Maybe I will read some of his other series. I digress. This finale made me feel an undescribable ball of of mixed emotion that may rival an international incident. I thought it was marvelous.

I am new so I will not get too deep but I will say to the doubters; To understand the dark one and his absolute necessity, you must only look at the Aes Sedai symbol and it's implications. Also, think of the wheel of time itself and what turns it. To understand that thing in the backs of the peoples eyes in Rand's "Perfect world," one word comes to mind. A theme introduced throughout the series. Hope. Without dark what is there to hope for. What do we teach our children about if everyone has everything they need. What kind of hope can we have without some kind of force driving us.

I do want to know about the pipe. My theory is that he may become a hero of the horn and straddle the World of dreams as they do. I'ts ok. Thank you Mr. Sanderson for this and I feel that by all rights you have no questions to answer as you did well finishing a masterpiece and probably didn't want to flower it up too much with what may become absolute drivel.

Once again, from progress POV, WoT is stuck in eternal loop - new stuff gets discovered, then war comes and everything is forgotten. That is the very point of the Wheel. Without war, the discoveries would persist and build up. With constant war, probably similar, only for weaponry. As it is, the world is doomed to repeat the same war until one side wins, rendering all their achievements in the lifetime moot

Sorry to post 2x but this caught my eye. How did any technology or weaves or anything for that matter get lost as the world continues on as it was at the end of this book. The new age starts seemingly without incident.

please dont double post, use the edit button - Joe

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Nothing says that an age has to end in fire & brimstone. I can't recall if this is absolutely correct, but from the 1st age to the Age of Legends (2nd age) I think it was a peaceful transition. Probably became the Age of Legends when they figured out how to channel.

We don't actually know how the first age transitioned into the second, but the most popular fan theory is thermonuclear war. I tend to agree with it.

So I was almost---almost---disappointed by how "smooth" the transition was into the fourth age. The best explanation I can think of was Moiraine's: A world that had been imbalanced by war for an entire age, and broken in the last one, would be balanced by having peace in the next. I personally suspect that the Dragon had an influence on how the world changed at the last battle-he may not have a lot of choices, but that one is his, and he chose peace.

Edited by happyman
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Finished it after four days of reading.

What a triumphant conclusion.

Androl was my favourite character - along with Logain.

Of course I loved all of the main characters, they tell the story, but it is the minor characters, the details, the embelishments that really make a masterpiece.

Only last year, I purchased the (at the time) complete set of the Wheel of Time on amazon. For £85. Eleven books.

I burned through them in a couple of months.

It has been a wonderful experience, and I shall oneday reread the entire series from start to finish.... But I can't face such a daunting task now.

I loved it. After Gawyn, I was convinced Galad would kill Damodred. Then Logain. Then Egwane, then Lan.

And even then I thought Lan had perished in the attempt.

I mean - wow. Compared to Be'lal who barley gets a look in.

When he appeared with the Sharans, my first thought was: Oh. Damodred. You little ****. And was hitting my head on the table for not seeing it coming.

Perhapes my own regret was that Rand never knew Graendal murdered Asmodean - or that Asmodean Genuinly defected to Rand's cause after being freed from the Dark One. I seem to rememebr Rand spent much of the next book, doubting his jugement, thinking Asmodean had betrayed him.

I had also been looking forward to seeing the fight between Shaidar Haran and Moridin - which I believe happened off-screen.

Still it was an amazing book, which I enjoyed, dispite being an absolute wreck the next day.

Ah the price one must pay.

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  • 1 month later...

I am, an ever have been, late to the party. Don't think that'll stop me from posting here now. :)

 

List of things in this book I loved:

  • Moiraine showing up in the middle of the parley at Merrilor and laying a prophecy smackdown on everyone.
  • Androl. Holy crap, Androl. I wonder how much of a hand Brandon had in that one, because he's a perfect example of Sanderson's Second Law (limitations are more interesting than abilities). Give the man a ton of limitations, and suddenly he's the most interesting channeler in the book.
  • The Wind showing up in the middle of the book, and feeling like it had gone full circle. (I was literally shouting "The Wind! THE WIND!" when that happened.)
  • The way it squeezed in resolutions for characters we had forgotten about, like Raef and Ila.
  • The Hinderstapians!
  • Talmanes. Every time he showed up.
  • Perrin, becoming the ultimate master of the wolf dream.
  • The Flame of Tar Valon. Now, THAT would have been a useful weave to have in prior books.
  • How Olver grew. I was having serious worries about his future.
  • Birgitte, standing over her own beheaded corpse.
  • Lan. Oh my GRAVY, Lan. I always knew he was awesome, but this book took him to new heights. The moment when he Sheathed the Sword took him to heights of badassery that I have seen from few other characters in all of fiction.
  • Mat, grumbling in his head about how even dead women treat him like Nynaeve.
  • Thom Merrilin, composing a balad while the world ends.
  • The voice of the Creator, right before Rand enters the pit of doom, and finally, at long last, we get an explanation for the voice in Eye of the World.
  • Rand's realization that there must be opposition in all things, that removing that opposition would remove free will and the purpose of life. Color me surprised that he could have killed the Dark One had he wanted to; I honestly didn't think he'd be able to pull it off.
  • Rand's impossible pipe. I strongly suspect that it was made possible by his having woven the Pattern itself. He's still able to manipulate it directly.

One thing I REALLY wish would have been explained is why entering Tel'Aran'Rhiod in the flesh is supposed to be so evil, and what part of yourself you lose by doing it. Dangerous, reckless, foolhardy, yes, but evil? And losing a part of yourself? It was never shown to have had any adverse effects at all on the people who did it.

 

A final note: I don't see how Mat's death in Fires of Heaven could have unbound him from the Horn. Supposedly Balefire undos all consequences of the actions of those it burns. Why was the link to the Horn an exception?

 

But, well, whatever: this book was incredible. I have waited 17 years to read it, and it truly lived up to that buildup. It was...exquisite. (Thanks for that one, Thom.)

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Androl. Holy crap, Androl. I wonder how much of a hand Brandon had in that one, because he's a perfect example of Sanderson's Second Law (limitations are more interesting than abilities). Give the man a ton of limitations, and suddenly he's the most interesting channeler in the book.

Ding ding ding!

 TEREZ

There was a signing table report on Reddit where you mentioned some research RJ had done on leatherworking, and how you worked it into Androl's character. Anything else you can tell us about that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I'm not sure what I can say here that will be all that interesting. While I was working on the outline for the book (what eventually became the books) Harriet found something she'd forgotten about until then. It was a photocopied stack of sheets from what appeared to be a magazine about craftsmanship. In it, a leatherworker went into depth about what he did in his art. Harriet had written across it "Jim planned to use this somewhere." We didn't know where.

Previously, in visiting Team Jordan, I'd suggested that I would enjoy having an Asha'man character who had previously been a side character that I could make into a main character. I wasn't planning to add any other characters in significant roles, but I did want an Asha'man to add some viewpoints in the Black Tower. Beyond that, I wanted as a storyteller to have a character I could use that had very little baggage, one I could develop fresh. It's something you will often find me doing in my own books, something Jim himself did, in expanding a side character in later books of a series.

They'd suggested Androl, who was basically a blank slate in the notes. I took him and made him my gateway-Talented Asha'man, and the leatherworking sequence seemed to work very well with how I'd been developing him. And that's how the Androl of these later three books came to be.

Source

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Glad you liked it! I think, despite stylistic differences, Brandon did an amazing job at concluding it.

Androl was mostly Brandon's creation, as far as I know. A lot of the things he did, in RJ's notes, weren't attributed to any specific character, IIRC.

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I think Androl is an interesting break-out character.  I've said it before:  Androl is what you get when you let Brandon Sanderson play with gateways.  And it is awesome.

 

It's always interesting to see some of the more hard-core fans complain about the lack of new weaves in the book.  Somebody inevitably pipes up that that means that Brandon would have to invent them, and surely he did a better job by adapting ones he already knew in creative ways?  I see Androl as the ultimate answer to that objection.

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I think Androl is an interesting break-out character.  I've said it before:  Androl is what you get when you let Brandon Sanderson play with gateways.  And it is awesome.

 

It's always interesting to see some of the more hard-core fans complain about the lack of new weaves in the book.  Somebody inevitably pipes up that that means that Brandon would have to invent them, and surely he did a better job by adapting ones he already knew in creative ways?  I see Androl as the ultimate answer to that objection.

 

My response would be to simply point out that there are several new weaves in this book:

  • The Flame of Tar Valon
  • The True Power Shield
  • Rand, weaving *reality itself*
  • Rand, weaving a three-power hand to manipulate the Dark One
  • Rand, using the One Power at a lower level than previously seen, perhaps the power of the Creator himself, to seal the Bore.
  • Horizontal gateways, which is one that astounded Demandred
  • The two-way double-bond

And probably a few more that I'm forgetting. :)

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My response would be to simply point out that there are several new weaves in this book:

  • The Flame of Tar Valon
  • The True Power Shield
  • Rand, weaving *reality itself*
  • Rand, weaving a three-power hand to manipulate the Dark One
  • Rand, using the One Power at a lower level than previously seen, perhaps the power of the Creator himself, to seal the Bore.
  • Horizontal gateways, which is one that astounded Demandred
  • The two-way double-bond

And probably a few more that I'm forgetting. :)

 

Yeah, but given the kind of fighting going on, I would expect more combat-oriented weaves to have been created/invented/introduced, especially by Demandred or the Shayad.  Most of the ones you list were all plot-critical, and probably were created by RJ.  I'm not sure about the double-bond.

Given the difficulties inherent in creating new weaves, and that from a meta-fictional standpoint, no other weaves would have turned the tide of the battle, I can see why Brandon chose to leave such things to the reader's imagination/used cool, sensible limitations on his characters instead.

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Yeah, but given the kind of fighting going on, I would expect more combat-oriented weaves to have been created/invented/introduced, especially by Demandred or the Shayad.  Most of the ones you list were all plot-critical, and probably were created by RJ.  I'm not sure about the double-bond.

Given the difficulties inherent in creating new weaves, and that from a meta-fictional standpoint, no other weaves would have turned the tide of the battle, I can see why Brandon chose to leave such things to the reader's imagination/used cool, sensible limitations on his characters instead.

 

To be fair, given the amount of OP Demandred was drawing on, his "balefire everything" strategy makes more sense than using any fancy new weaves. Especially since he was deliberately trying to mess up the Pattern as badly as possible. 

 

But yeah, I do wish we'd seen a bit more in that department.

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Despite the series having so many books, despite it taking so many years, this last book still felt rushed. I loved it, no doubts there, but there were so many plots ending all at once that it didn't feel like there was time to end most of them properly.

 

Given how many balls Jordan threw into the air, I'm not sure if was possible to have a book end it without making it feel rushed. That said, Sanderson was definitely the man to step in and keep those balls in the air, and end it all with a proper, gleeman flourish.

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I agree with the feel of everything abruptly ending, but a lot of that was inevitable. When Jordan started writing the series, he didn't think it would grow to the size that it did. He even acknowledged that it had run away on him to a degree, in length and complexity. 

 

Overall, I was satisfied with how all the various plot lines were wrapped up, but yeah, the series easily could've stretched another 2-3 books in wrapping up everything. And it still would probably feel rushed in places  :P

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  • 2 weeks later...

I read it a bit late cause I had to complete my third reread first.

Awesome book, maybe the best of the saga. Totally epic, but in a justified way. I don't like in fiction when characters go badass just for the sake of it, for showing off to the public. I like people to do it for sound plot reasons, and in amol you only have to pick. "I didn't come here to win, I came here to kill you" is so great!

And everything androl does. Many of those things I already thought on my own (like opening a gateway in front of the enemy with the exit behind him, so that he would shot himself), some I wondered about but wasn't unsure would be possible (like opening horizontal gateways), but opening one to the middle of a volcano is something I failed to imagine.

Every chapter involving mat or tuon was  so funny, I rarely laughed that much.

 

However, it also felt like it's not finished at all. There's just so much still hanging in the air! Will tuon consider good the token agreement she had with egwene, that any channeling woman could choose to be aes sedai or damane? Could the seanchan coexist peacefully with the other people? What did hawkwing told tuon? Was he pissed because of the slavery? Did he approve of it? After all, he sent a big army across the ocean just on the offchance that there may be some island to conquer, and besieged tar valon for 20 years. he wasn't a nice guy. How much change will mat and min bring? I expect the seanchan culture will never be the same again after those two had heir chance to meddle in it. And what about the wise ones kept damane?

What of shara? What of the poeple there? will they be conquered? are they still in turmoil for the dragon? will they remain an oppressive system? How long will the dragon peace hold? What will happen in andor, with the two rivers now being ruled by the husband of the queen of saldea? what will the windfinders do with their square mile of land? Will their ships still matter now that there's traveling? What about the shaido?

Will elayne find birgitte again? What will olver do? what will rand do? will it be known he survived? what will happen when his harem start looking for him? will the aes sedai be strong or will they divide again? Admittedly, the answer to that depends on how long cadsuane lives (and nice to see someone getting the better of her for once! "find some fool to raise amyrlin - oh crap!"). Well, moiraine would also do very well. Will Setalle find out that someone managed to heal severing? And annoura? will she be all right again, or she will cut open her veins with nynaeve and damer flinn in the next room?

And who was nakomi anyway?

 

And then I have plenty of technical question about gateways. How do they relate to perpetual motion? What happens to gravity when you can drop an item throught a hole in the floor and have it reapper high in the sky? What happens to the potential energy function there? can you open one to space or to another planet? Or to the core of the heart? Given it's mostly iron, with a smattering of noble metals, opening one for a few seconds at a time would be a great way to extract resources.

 

I know, the world goes on, there are neither beginnings nor endings, but still I would have liked more resolution. This has definitely NOT quenched my thirst for more wheel of time books. I would want to read more, MORE, MORE!

Too bad it won't happen.

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While I sympathize with many of the questions you have, and would love to see the answers (I'm hoping that some of these smaller details will be answered in the encyclopedia such as Setalle and Annoura), I have two opinions on the matter:

1. Any good series leaves questions open. The future is always unknown, and leaving us with that unknown lends a completeness and feeling of reality to character and world arcs.

2. Robert Jordan just had too many balls in the air for anyone else (perhaps not even him) to catch properly and do everything justice. I've always been of the opinion that if Robert hadn't had any health problems, we probably would have ended up with a 15-20 book series. Though we did see signs of Robert pulling his plotlines toward resolution in KoD, he had a history of ballooning his story arcs wider and longer than he originally intended. He had 15 balls in the air, and when Brandon took over he pulled a Thom and gave us a satisfying finish (though it wasn't what we had originally expected, and perhaps not as complete)

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Reading AMoL again, was anyone else let down by Moraine's appearance? I guess I expected much more from her. For me it seemed like the last few books were building to this awesome return of Moraine to the story, but then it kind of fizzles. Sure with her help the Dragon's Peace was made, but I expected so much more.

I still loved this book, though. The garden scene with Rand and Mat is my absolute favorite in the entire series. Sad to see it end. There is now an empty split in my life. It's alright though. I am sure it can be filled by Words of Radiance when it comes out.

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I also expected more from moiraine, even if, honestly, if it wasn't for her the armies of the coalition may have started to kill each other. so she played an important part. I still don't understand how egwene can be so honorable when among aes sedai or wise ones while behaving like a spoiled brat with anyone else.

And thom merrilin is the most badass guy ever! he don't have any special power, yet alone he killed the prince consort of andor, the king of cairien, at least a couple of tairen high lords and at least 5 trained channelers in battle. and we don't know how many else. with no channeling, fancy terangreal, or tar access.

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Reading AMoL again, was anyone else let down by Moraine's appearance? I guess I expected much more from her. For me it seemed like the last few books were building to this awesome return of Moraine to the story, but then it kind of fizzles. Sure with her help the Dragon's Peace was made, but I expected so much more.

I still loved this book, though. The garden scene with Rand and Mat is my absolute favorite in the entire series. Sad to see it end. There is now an empty split in my life. It's alright though. I am sure it can be filled by Words of Radiance when it comes out.

 

A bit, yeah.  But given the list of things that could have been brought back in a way which was awesome, and the amount of actual time available, I didn't complain.  Every fan has a list of things that should have been done in more detail.  They make for a very long list, all together, and it would take roughly the entire length of the series to do them all justice.  Just not possible.  Sigh.

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Meh, I thought that Moiraine was handled fine. After all, Rand and the others had grown too much to really need her anymore. This is the classic "you can never go back" element. Children grow up and beyond the protection of parental figures. By Moiraine helping in the Dragon's Peace, we get a hint that a parent can still be useful, even after their children are all grown. For her to have had a more important role would have been to undermine Mat, Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve, and Egwene.

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