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aMoL full book discussion


Brendan

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Did Rand actually accomplish anything? Was the use of the True Power different to how it was prior to the Bore? If not, what did he do? He feels much like an unknowing Herald, sent by the pattern to prepare the world to fight, rather than to do anything himself.

There are two major things Rand did that really mattered for the Last Battle. One of them was, yes, preparing the rest of the world to fight. The other, which I would say is about equal in importance, is sealing the Bore. In that, Rand's success may have been aided by the continuing resistance of everyone else, but the actual act of doing it was done by Rand himself.

As for the True Power, one of Lews Therin's lines from before Veins of Gold revealed that the most important problem with the way he sealed the Bore was that it required touching the Dark One directly with the One Power - with the heavy implication that doing so is what made it possible for the DO to taint Saidin. This time, all the One Power used was protected by a sheath of the True Power, so the only thing the DO could reach during the sealing to be able to try to taint was his own power. This was made possible by the combination of Callandor's unique abilities and flaws with Moridin, which is why Callandor was so specifically singled out in the Prophecies despite there being other sa'angreals of equal or greater power.

One question though, doesn't this seem like an Aes Sedai lying outright?

page 131

Not quite. There are two ways to interpret Pevara's reply. 1) No, he cannot hear what we say. 2) No, your assumption that he can't hear us is incorrect. It's a bit of a stretch to think option 2 is what she really meant, but it is a technically valid interpretation and exactly the sort of word-twisting that Aes Sedai have been using for millennia.

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Yeah, I still can't believe Bela was killed by something as minor as some nameless Trollocs. I hadn't expected her to die at all. I wanted to see her do more besides shuttle the Horn of Valere back and forth a few thousand feet and impress Faile and Olver with her amazing speed and endurance. She didn't even reappear when the Horn was blown.

That reminds me of another thing, does anyone think Jain Farstrider was a Hero of the Horn before this lifetime, or was Jain Charin his very first incarnation? It seems like it must have been his first, but does anyone besides the authors and assistants know for sure?

Also, I wouldn't have suggested the building-sized gateway that Androl used with Dragonmount to be used with the Sun, just a small gateway created distantly, facing away from him.

And I hope at some point Rand teaches the whole "Songs of Growing" thing to the Tinkers, because there's not a whole lot of point to him being the only one knowing them. Besides impressing random farmers, kings, queens, and Empresses of entire continents.

Edited by Cheese Ninja
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Also, I wouldn't have suggested the building-sized gateway that Androl used with Dragonmount to be used with the Sun, just a small gateway created distantly, facing away from him.

It wouldn't really matter which direction you face it in, pressure on the sun could go as high as billions of atmospheric pressures, that is going to pump through a gateway of any size fast and expand even faster, assuming that it doesn't just ignite the atmosphere that is, I don't think that that's probable but even so, gateways onto the sun = bad.

Definitely agree that the tinkers need their song again though.

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It wouldn't really matter which direction you face it in, pressure on the sun could go as high as billions of atmospheric pressures, that is going to pump through a gateway of any size fast and expand even faster, assuming that it doesn't just ignite the atmosphere that is, I don't think that that's probable but even so, gateways onto the sun = bad.

Definitely agree that the tinkers need their song again though.

Earth's Air density: 1.225 kg/m³

The Sun's photosphere has a temperature between 4500 and 6000 K[3] (with an effective temperature of 5777 K) [4] and a density of about 2×10^(−4) kg/m3;

The density of the chromosphere is very small, it being only 10^(−4) times that of the photosphere, the layer just below it, and 10^(−8) times that of the atmosphere of Earth.

The sun doesn't start getting denser than our atmosphere until you go well beneath the visible layers.

It seems he'd have to go pretty far beneath what we think of the 'surface' of the sun in order to actually get expansion from it, instead of stuff being sucked into the gateway.

Edited by Cheese Ninja
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I doubt you'd be able to accurately make a gateway into the sun, it could come out anywhere really, and there's no telling how gravity would act through a gateway either so you'd either all get sucked in or all get pushed out depending on where you placed it. fatally in both cases, still if you were really commited to killing a lot of trollocs, gateway into the middle of their army then again into the sun, or make a gateway into their army from as far away as possible, make and loosely tie another one without going through the first, as it's forming close the first one.

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First, can we stop talking about the sun now? I don't mean to insult the guy who started it since it was an honest question but its just completely implausible. Second, Bela as a mount for one of the Heroes of the Horn would have been awesome, but i feel it would have made a better end if she walked up to Rand as he was walking away from his funeral. A full circle kind a thing if you will. She started with him at the beginning of his journey and it would have been awesome if she took him to his next. If at all possible then I would love if Brandon made something of companion books to The Wheel of Time. Something like what happens when Mat and Tuon return to Seanchan, or when Oliver grows up. Just a thought but they're can be so many more stories in this land and I think it would it would be awesome if the land continued to grow.

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First, can we stop talking about the sun now? I don't mean to insult the guy who started it since it was an honest question but its just completely implausible. Second, Bela as a mount for one of the Heroes of the Horn would have been awesome, but i feel it would have made a better end if she walked up to Rand as he was walking away from his funeral. A full circle kind a thing if you will. She started with him at the beginning of his journey and it would have been awesome if she took him to his next. If at all possible then I would love if Brandon made something of companion books to The Wheel of Time. Something like what happens when Mat and Tuon return to Seanchan, or when Oliver grows up. Just a thought but they're can be so many more stories in this land and I think it would it would be awesome if the land continued to grow.

Oh no, I accidentally introduced an implausible concept to a thread about a magic filled fantasy series...

Harriet and Brandon seem pretty clear at this point about the "no outrigger novels" thing.

If I'm being entirely realistic, then it would have been tacky to see Bela come back with the Heroes of the Horn, I just didn't want her to die in the first place.

I also liked the references to the fan theories and fan criticisms of the series.

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Maybe playing with the fabric of reality gave him the power to treat the waking world as if it were Tel'aran'rhiod? Either that or Rand just became god.

By the way, anyone else notice the fact that Perin is now the world's most deadly assassin if he wants to be?

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When Fain's new name showed up, I burst out laughing. Someone needs to be more careful carving her Essence Marks.

Demandred and Graendal were seriously impressive in this book. It's like the entire collection of legends about the Forsaken's power and skill were secretly about the two of them. Actually, impersonating twelve other people just to provide alternate targets for people gunning for him seems exactly like something Demandred would do. Of course, there is the question of where the prophecies about the Dragonslayer came fr- He planted them, didn't he. I would not put anything past that man.

I also loved how, after everyone slowly struggled to come to the realization that the Great Captains had been subverted, Mat looked at the battlefield for maybe thirty seconds and said, "Huh. Gareth Bryne is a darkfriend."

I also totally called Demandred being in charge of Shara at least two books in advance. I am proud.

Edited by name_here
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Lan. I mean...Lan.

I really did see a lot things coming, at least in a general way.

Knew Perrin would kill Slayer, somehow.

Knew Mat would lead the forces of Light at the LB, somehow.

Knew Rand would beat the DO, somehow.

Knew Egwene would do something cool, somehow.

Knew the Heroes of the Horn would turn the tide, somehow.

But Lan. MFing Lan, baby. Did not see him sticking his sword into Demandred's throat. I thought, yeah, he'll kill a lot of 'em and do some badass things, but really didn't see that coming. Actually, during the book, I really thought it was going to be Mat who whooped up on him with the Ashanderei, especially after Gawyn AND Galad went down, and we had a little foreshadowing of Mat besting them both the qaurterstaff way back in the day.

Lan. Could be one of my favorite parts of the whole thing.

* And this is weird because I never thought Lan was that cool of a character. He was alright and did some cool stuff, but nothing really, really epic. He served Aes Sedai, period. Until now.

Skip if you don't like the Sun discussion.

Oh, and the Sun thing...wouldn't that kinda set off a thermonuclear explosion on Earth's surface, since the Sun is one big thermonulclear fusion reaction going absolutely out of control? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Edited by Droz
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Oh, and the Sun thing...wouldn't that kinda set off a thermonuclear explosion on Earth's surface, since the Sun is one big thermonulclear fusion reaction going absolutely out of control? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Nah. Only a small part of the sun near the center is actually a thermonuclear reactor. The rest is just really, really hot.

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Also, was it really necessary for Rand to let everyone but his girlfriends assume that he was dead? Sure the dude deserves a break, but couldn't he show some sympathy for his friends and his dad who were mourning him?

I was thinking something similar, but then I realized that the Dragon's Peace hinged on Rand giving his life during his battle with the DO, and the more who know a secret...

I loved the book. There were some scenes that blew my mind. Others I was nodding with respect and pleasure. Still others I was shocked. Probably my favorite scene in the book is the conversation between Rand and Mat in Ebou Dar about their respective adventures. Next has to be the epilogue. The impossible pipe had me grinning from ear to ear.

The saddest death to me was Rhuarc. He was a rock for Rand for most of the series and the way he was compulsed and turned made it hard for me.

Perrin learning how to enter the Wolf Dream(aka Tel'Aran'Rhiod) was awesome and continued his arc of awesomeness.

I started "The Last Battle" thinking to myself "I'll just finish this chapter and read the rest in the morning." Didn't happen. By the time the chapter was over you couldn't have pried that book out of my hands with anything short of the Jaws of Life. I was absolutely mesmerized.

Thank you Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson for crafting such an amazing series. The last 22 years have been amazing!

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OK, my impressions...

Overall, a good book and a satisfying ending :) However, reading the book made me feel like ranting about a few points. I realize that most people don't share my particular worldview, and the rant is purely my opinion, so I'll hide it with spoiler tags.

Before that: Gateways, woot :) At last somebody using them properly.

As for the sun... Not healthy, that. The gateway itself shields you from thermal bloom from lava, so a small one to the sun would probably roast your army as well as your opponent... Not to mention the gravity efects, which nobody seemed to consider - and gravity works through gateway just fine, or you wouldn't fall through it.

So... Caution rantVV

Let's see, my gripes and impressions. First, deaths...

Gawyn: At last your stupidity caught up with you. Idiot.

Bashere - eh...

Suian - another idiot not listening to the warnings. Much help you were, too.

Egwene - ok, that was kinda awesome. Let's hope somebody noticed what weave you used.

Bela - hm. She might be faking. Strange death.

Rand's fake death - well, I am relatively sure enough people will figure it out. Already, Nynaeve suspects and Cadsuane knows. Let's hope they blab in due time. Also, apparently Rand use TP to switch bodies, and planned in advance - nifty.

Next, one of the greatest gripes -DO is a **** wimp. Really, DO? Mindscrew? That is all you can do? With the person standing in your very own domain? You are pathetic. Whatever respect I had for you is gone. As Rand said, insignificant mite. Your power is the only use for you, and given that it can be accessed without your say so... Eh.

Next one is will probably be the greatest one of contention. Rand, whom henceforth I'll cal Procrastinator, got scared of unknown and decided to reset to factory settings. What was wrong with either world he saw? (I refer to the world without evil and compassion, respectively).

First the world of DO.

The point where that thieving orphan was shot was probably one of the few most.. resonant points in all the books. That action, that world, just felt so.. right to me. It felt like home. This is how I would act if I wasn't afraid of the repercussions, if the price of evil wasn't so high, for evil and good ever had the same gain for me. Sure, for somebody like Rand it might have been scary, but really... Compassion is (for me) a learned trait, and not really the one that sat well with me, so the world without... Still, it is not the ideal world -alas, they still lie and cheat, but not much worse (and maybe a little better) than the one they already have. Apparently, the humans still survive, and form society, and military research blossoms and prospers. For the people in it, it is just a world, and only for those outside it may seem off - since for that world, they are off.

But fine, evil and whatnot.

So what was wrong with the second one, Rand? So your girlfriends get mellower -what do you expect, with evil half of their souls missing? You didn't like it? You think they lost free will? Half of it, maybe. The average got shifted to the positive, but they can still choose the gradations of good. They can still invent, the progress is still there, just concentrated on medicine and peaceful weaves rather than military. The world wouldn't change? That is a lie, Father of Lies. It is now, with you present that the world does not change, ever oscillating around the same values. With DO alive, he will be free once again, and trollocs will kill people once again, and you will be sealed once again. The good will be followed by the bad, ever the zero sum game. With no negative, however, the world will get better as the time progresses. It won't be able to repeat... and maybe that is why the Pattern, by one of its threads which is Procrastinator, keeps you alive. For eternal, abhorrent balance, never stable. Maybe one day, the dragon will kill DO, or vice versa... it would be nice.

Also, the bit about DO winning while dying? While the world shown was true, that bit, IMO, was a lie :) He just didn't want to die, do pulled one over on Procrastinator.

End rant :) Yay.

Kudos to Brandon! Stormlight, next :)

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I personally found Rand's second world outright creepy. Aviendha and Elayne are not like that. Elayne seemed, well, airheaded, like a self-absorbed party girl. And I can't imagine Aviendha being up for nursery duty. If there's no one to fight and no pressing responsibilities, I'd expect her to take up mountain climbing, deep sea diving, or space exploration. They lost something other than the capacity to do evil, something much more important. Rand's first world wasn't entirely peaceful and it wasn't eternal, but the people in it were still people.

Also, the bit where Elayne was sitting alone in the garden because no one needed a queen actually struck me as rather strange and ominous, hinting at something rotten in the core of the paradise. I know people like to say government only exists because humans aren't perfect, but I don't really believe that. If anything, I'd expect her (or her subordinates) to be constantly besieged by polite pairs of people saying that the boundary between their properties is unclear and could she settle that, or presenting their cases for sending resources to construction instead of food production. Sure, there wouldn't be any need for police or military, but government is more than just those.

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I personally found Rand's second world outright creepy. Aviendha and Elayne are not like that. Elayne seemed, well, airheaded, like a self-absorbed party girl. And I can't imagine Aviendha being up for nursery duty. If there's no one to fight and no pressing responsibilities, I'd expect her to take up mountain climbing, deep sea diving, or space exploration. They lost something other than the capacity to do evil, something much more important. Rand's first world wasn't entirely peaceful and it wasn't eternal, but the people in it were still people.

Also, the bit where Elayne was sitting alone in the garden because no one needed a queen actually struck me as rather strange and ominous, hinting at something rotten in the core of the paradise. I know people like to say government only exists because humans aren't perfect, but I don't really believe that. If anything, I'd expect her (or her subordinates) to be constantly besieged by polite pairs of people saying that the boundary between their properties is unclear and could she settle that, or presenting their cases for sending resources to construction instead of food production. Sure, there wouldn't be any need for police or military, but government is more than just those.

Well, the point is, we, as humans, can't imagine something outside our experience, so we can only approximate. Will removing "evil" from people also remove selfishness altogether? Boost altruistic parts, so that something self-directed like mountain climbing would be superseded by the desire to help others? People would no longer be able to envy each other, or to actually perceive conflict between each other. According to the book, borders were "a relic from earlier age", and "why would somebody try to "own" land? There was enough for all." You see, from my (severely warped) POV, government is there to bother me. If everybody were to understand what was best for everybody and act accordingly, without fear, envy and selfishness, it would not be necessary. Law would literally be built in into human psyche. But for a person of grey zone, like Rand, like most of us, it would look... bizarre at best. Different. All personalities would be shifted into good, and while normal for a person of that world it would look doped up to us - we are not used to being constantly happy, and our very bodies would normally compensate.

{EDIT}

Once again, from progress POV, WoT is stuck in eternal loop - new stuff gets discovered, then war comes and everything is forgotten. That is the very point of the Wheel. Without war, the discoveries would persist and build up. With constant war, probably similar, only for weaponry. As it is, the world is doomed to repeat the same war until one side wins, rendering all their achievements in the lifetime moot.

Edited by Satsuoni
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The point where that thieving orphan was shot was probably one of the few most.. resonant points in all the books. That action, that world, just felt so.. right to me. It felt like home. This is how I would act if I wasn't afraid of the repercussions, if the price of evil wasn't so high, for evil and good ever had the same gain for me. Sure, for somebody like Rand it might have been scary, but really... Compassion is (for me) a learned trait, and not really the one that sat well with me, so the world without...

Wow, Satsuoni, I hope I never get on your bad side. ;)

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I am content and satisfied, although I see a couple of things that were left unexplained...

Indeed Nakomi for instance - even with all the theories it's still a random occurance.

But still I am satisfied...

Also one thing I noticed:

While Androl (which is the most awesome character introduced so late in the series) and Pevara are communicating through the bond she asks him how he creates the gateways without knowing the place...

At one point he sums up a couple of things like how it reminds him of home and stuff and the last one he mentions he says something in the sorts of that it "reminds him of jain".

This so explains all of his experience and jobs and also why he "knows" the lands, he was a companion of Jain Farstrider!

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Finally finished my reread of the series yesterday before dinner, and started on aMoL immediately after... mind blown, and short on sleep, because I finished before I went to bed.

Opinions? Rants? Nothing. this book was amazing, it answered enough questions to feel complete, while leaving enough vague for there to be wonder. It did nothing I expected and every answer was good. I especially liked the consequences of killing the DO that was very clever.

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I absolutely loved this book. It was exhausting, rewarding and absolutely epic. Of course I do have some misgivings, I know some people believed too many characters met their ends, but I have the opposite opinion, I was absolutely convinced that one of the ta'veren boys had to die, that all three came close just to spring back miraculously seemed to make light of the gravity of the situation. The other thing was the zero build up of Fain's end battle with Mat, of course it's been foreshadowed enough through out the series but there was nothing in the book to suggest Fain was even active until he sprang onto the scene with a new name. But really these things do not bother me overly much and with further re-reads I will definitely come to see why it ended up like this.

The very ending itself I thought was perfect, just open enough to let the world breath (and the theory boards still rolling) but final enough to bring closure. Amazing end to an amazing ride.

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I agree with those who feel that the Fain/Matt ending wasn't built up as well as it could have been.

Then I find myself wondering, when, exactly, such a buildup would be possible? I conclude that, with what RJ had left, there really wasn't any place to put it without throwing off the rest of the pacing, so I'll just have to take one climax which is a little too fast. What else could have been done?

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I just got my hands on the book today :)

Good to know others appreciate Matt like I do, spoilers are ok I actually cant wait to exp the fain/matt ending.

To me Matt didnt show up till the dragon reborn episode. His sense of humor or character developed then the greatest Matt can be and then forward he foreshadowed himself I think.

If I was an occupant of wheel of time I would surely be part of the fox's band B)

Anyways cant wait :)

Well not forshadow or degrade but I would like to see him be open with his abilities.

just to see the reactions especially Tuon's. :)

Edited by Joe ST
Merging posts, pleas dont double post
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