Dec 17 - Syme - A King's Death Chapter 3

[Syme]

This is the thread for chapter three, in which we're introduced to Andronicus, the third and final major POV character, and get a first look into Sarkis.

[cjhuitt]

I was starting to wonder how many POVs we would have, until I reread your email to see this is the final (main) one.

I see some potential for this chapter in some political intriguing, but right now it seems like it is mostly potential. You have Andronicus doing his thing, and then it just... works. That was a bit of a letdown, but for a first chapter when something else is introduced, not that big of a problem. I would have liked to have seen a little more analysis from Andronicus on what exactly it meant for his gambit to go through so easily, or more speculating on why Karpos agreed so easily. Even better if Andronicus vows to not let this turn of events sway him to Karpos' side in future debates.

Leaving Andronicus confused at the end was probably realistic, and may fit what you want for your story, but I was hoping for a stronger end of the chapter. So far, you've ended on the death of a king, a senator(?) plotting to become an ambassador, and an ex-slave woman becoming some kind of powerful magic creature. This one ends with Andronicus just confused.

Plus, Andronicus can't figure out what Karpos is up to, I don't have enough information at this point to do so either. Especially not at the beginning of the book like this, when this is the first scene with him in it. I think the tension and anticipation would be higher if you had Andronicus realize one possibility that would be bad (even if it is the wrong possibility -- heck, probably better if it is wrong.)

I seem to recall you are currently writing this. Later, when you come back to edit, you might want to consider if you need the first part of this chapter, with Andronicus and his wife. It might be better to jump right into him kicking Eugenia into doing something. If there is something in the first part we need to know, perhaps we can get worked in later.

One other general observation for later editing... I've heard said, and it makes sense to me, to intentionally try to connect opening scenes from different POVs in some way. Since the POV is different, having a similar setting, mood, circumstances, etc., can help keep the reader from feeling too lost. (One example is Martin's Game of Thrones, where at the very beginning, even though he's jumping between POV characters, each one picks up the story more or less with the same people and setting, just with the next part of the same story happening to them. Later it branches out wildly, but at the beginning it helps to introduce the people without needing to explain more about the situation, etc.) I mention this due to the inverse; be careful of similar things when you don't want a connection made. When Andronicus was talking to his wife, who appeared to be sick during the day, right after the chapter where we get an explanation about the magical power making people not tolerate the sunlight, I made a connection there, and I don't think you meant for it to happen.

I deduced soon enough that this wasn't happening here, only to then wonder if the bad news was about Filista or her family (since she had gotten into my head from the prior connection).

One possible way to reduce this would be to reorder the first few chapters, if it doesn't make a difference to your story. Right now they are far enough apart that some temporal inconsistencies won't be noticed, which is my usual caution about rearranging things. If you keep the same prologue, I suggest following it with this chapter -- the repercussions of the king's death starting to be played out. The end of this chapter is about negotiating with Thereos (save Andronicus' confusion), so then you could lead into what is currently chapter 1 as Leontas tries to become the corresponding negotiator from Thereos' side. This preserves a connection between those two chapters, building to a potential conflict (or do they have their own plan that we don't know about yet? Dun dun dun!) I can't figure out how Filista's chapter would immediately follow from this, but it isn't a bad time to throw a wildcard in there either.

First, though, you should do the same thing I should really be doing: finish the book.

[akoebel]

What I liked about this chapter is the political structure which reminds me of the early Roman republic (with the Senate, the Plebes, and the two Consuls chosen for a limited period). It's an interesting aspect of the world and the built-in power balance can bring wonderful opportunities for conflict.

I agree that Andronicus (sounds Roman) was a bit too passive for my taste. Not that big of a problem early on, but I like to see opening POV chapters showing the POV character being good at something. Here, he just shakes up Eugenia and acts as a figurehead. Even during the discussion with the other king, he only seems to make a weak attempt and giving it up too easily. I think he should have at least tried to convince the other elders that granting powers to the other king was a bad idea.

Now, what bothered me the most is on the writing side. I found a lot of instances where you tell instead of showing and in some instances, you tell the same thing more than once. I might have noticed it here and not on the other chapters because the action was quite low here, so I looked at the writing instead. Not a big issue for a first draft, but something to keep your eyes on during revision.

[Syme]

Leaving Andronicus confused at the end was probably realistic, and may fit what you want for your story, but I was hoping for a stronger end of the chapter. So far, you've ended on the death of a king, a senator(?) plotting to become an ambassador, and an ex-slave woman becoming some kind of powerful magic creature. This one ends with Andronicus just confused.

It's true, this is really just an exposition and set-up chapter, but in an epic fantasy, I don't think it hurts too much to have a few of those in there. And Leontas (the POV from chapter 1) is not a senator, but just a wealthy and influental citizen of Thereos. Thereos doesn't have any sort of senator or really any professional politicians at all.

Plus, Andronicus can't figure out what Karpos is up to, I don't have enough information at this point to do so either. Especially not at the beginning of the book like this, when this is the first scene with him in it.

Yeah, that's intentional. You don't have any additional relevant information; in fact you have much less information than Andronicus, so it would make him look pretty bad if you knew what's going on while he is confused.

I think the tension and anticipation would be higher if you had Andronicus realize one possibility that would be bad (even if it is the wrong possibility -- heck, probably better if it is wrong.)

I'll think about including some speculation there.

I seem to recall you are currently writing this. Later, when you come back to edit, you might want to consider if you need the first part of this chapter, with Andronicus and his wife. It might be better to jump right into him kicking Eugenia into doing something. If there is something in the first part we need to know, perhaps we can get worked in later.

Orginally the chapter actually didn't have the scene with his wife, it got added later. I like the scene here because it establishes the various family connections and shows his relationship with his wife.

One other general observation for later editing... I've heard said, and it makes sense to me, to intentionally try to connect opening scenes from different POVs in some way. Since the POV is different, having a similar setting, mood, circumstances, etc., can help keep the reader from feeling too lost. (One example is Martin's Game of Thrones, where at the very beginning, even though he's jumping between POV characters, each one picks up the story more or less with the same people and setting, just with the next part of the same story happening to them. Later it branches out wildly, but at the beginning it helps to introduce the people without needing to explain more about the situation, etc.)

That's a good point and I think this is very well done in A Game of Thrones. I tried to do this as well here, where each of the first chapters for the three POV characters deals with the fallout of what happened in the prologue: Leontas deals with the changed political situation, Filista has become a refugee and Andronicus deals both with the political and the personal consequences.

I mention this due to the inverse; be careful of similar things when you don't want a connection made. When Andronicus was talking to his wife, who appeared to be sick during the day, right after the chapter where we get an explanation about the magical power making people not tolerate the sunlight, I made a connection there, and I don't think you meant for it to happen.

I deduced soon enough that this wasn't happening here, only to then wonder if the bad news was about Filista or her family (since she had gotten into my head from the prior connection).

I'm sorry, but I'm not worried about this at all. I think readers should be allowed to come to false conclusions when using faulty reasoning. There are some instances where I can see readers being unintentionally mislead because of some things not being written clearly enough, like on the last chapter where several reviewers thought Filista's family was from Sarkis. Misconceptions like those I will try to fix, but what you mentioned above seem to me to be just wild speculation. Speculation like that can be fun, but one shouldn't be surprised if it turns out wrong.

What I liked about this chapter is the political structure which reminds me of the early Roman republic (with the Senate, the Plebes, and the two Consuls chosen for a limited period). It's an interesting aspect of the world and the built-in power balance can bring wonderful opportunities for conflict.

I agree that Andronicus (sounds Roman) was a bit too passive for my taste.

Actually nothing Roman going on here, it's all Greek. The political structure of Sarkis is modelled after classical Sparta and Andronicus is a genuine ancient Greek name (in a latinized form of course). However, the Romans copied all sorts of stuff from Greek culture, so it's not always easy to tell them apart.

Not that big of a problem early on, but I like to see opening POV chapters showing the POV character being good at something. Here, he just shakes up Eugenia and acts as a figurehead. Even during the discussion with the other king, he only seems to make a weak attempt and giving it up too easily. I think he should have at least tried to convince the other elders that granting powers to the other king was a bad idea.

I'll look into that.

Now, what bothered me the most is on the writing side. I found a lot of instances where you tell instead of showing and in some instances, you tell the same thing more than once. I might have noticed it here and not on the other chapters because the action was quite low here, so I looked at the writing instead. Not a big issue for a first draft, but something to keep your eyes on during revision.

I'm actually not sure what you're referring to here. Could you give an example?