Odium vs Ruin

[Carnie]

This is something that's been kinda bugging me for a while. Odium is supposed to be "the most terrible of all the Shards." But I can't help but wonder by what standard he is "worse" than Ruin.

You don't need to explain to me what a powerful destructive force hatred is. Here's the thing though. Ruin, if he'd recovered the missing part of his power, would have been able to obliterate the planet in the blink of an eye. Whereas Odium's plan on Roshar seems to be to have everybody kill eachother in war. Relatively speaking, the former is worse. Granted, we actually know very little of Odium's plans, but I don't see what he could do that would make the stakes higher than the were in The Hero of Ages.

Seeing as the overarching plot is supposed to come to a head in "Mistborn in Space," it occurs to me that the Voidbringers may be destined to evolve into something similar to the Howlers from Animorphs; a race that lands on a planet, kills everyone and everything, then goes and finds something else to kill. Still, that doesn't sound so bad when Ruin, seemingly, could have just Unicron'd his way through one planet after another.

I'm sure there's something obvious I'm failing to consider here, but I don't know what it is. Thoughts?

[Nepene]

This is something that's been kinda bugging me for a while. Odium is supposed to be "the most terrible of all the Shards." But I can't help but wonder by what standard he is "worse" than Ruin.

You don't need to explain to me what a powerful destructive force hatred is. Here's the thing though. Ruin, if he'd recovered the missing part of his power, would have been able to obliterate the planet in the blink of an eye. Whereas Odium's plan on Roshar seems to be to have everybody kill eachother in war. Relatively speaking, the former is worse. Granted, we actually know very little of Odium's plans, but I don't see what he could do that would make the stakes higher than the were in The Hero of Ages.

Seeing as the overarching plot is supposed to come to a head in "Mistborn in Space," it occurs to me that the Voidbringers may be destined to evolve into something similar to the Howlers from Animorphs; a race that lands on a planet, kills everyone and everything, then goes and finds something else to kill. Still, that doesn't sound so bad when Ruin, seemingly, could have just Unicron'd his way through one planet after another.

I'm sure there's something obvious I'm failing to consider here, but I don't know what it is. Thoughts?

Ruin was deadly and destructive, but wouldn't have simply obliterated the planet in the blink of an eye. He liked to slowly destroy and ruin things, and was happy to build something up to destroy more. If he had been released he would have been as deadly or more deadly than Odium. If Ruin can worldhop.

I wonder where Love is among the many worlds. Shouldn't He or She be drawn to their opposite?

Edited November 12, 2012 by Nepene

[zenous]

Its hard to pin point a reason why Odium is worse the Ruin. During the Way of Kings the writer of the letter says the person holding Odium is worse then the guy holding Ruin. Plus Odium seems to be getting around more then Ruin who stayed on one planet.

[Asperity]

Perhaps Odium is worse because of his Shardholder. And Hate can possibly be a more persisting desire than wanting to destroy.

[Observer]

Ruin was trapped on Scarial for as long as Preservation lived, was invested in a human race, and had a nice shardholder. Odium is uninvested, free to move as far as we know, and has a distinctly bad guy as a shardholder. I can see Odium being worse under those circumstances.

[Vortaan]

It could be the motivation factor. Ruin wants to destroy things, but really that's just a function of the Shard. Odium, however, has a motivation to be the only one at his power level. While the endgame of Ruin will inevitably mean the end of everything, that is something that will happen anyway. A universe where Odium is the only Shard could be a very dark place where death might be the best thing that can happen to you.

[mbg]

Whereas Odium's plan on Roshar seems to be to have everybody kill eachother in war.

I belive that in the vision where Honor show delenar a possible future, in the very end we see its not only Roshar he seeks to end but the whole Cosmere.

During the Way of Kings the writer of the letter says the person holding Odium is worse then the guy holding Ruin.

Yes, but with time the shard effect them.

[Asperity]

I belive that in the vision where Honor show delenar a possible future, in the very end we see its not only Roshar he seeks to end but the whole Cosmere.

Yes, but with time the shard effect them.

Big difference is that Odium's Shardholder was already dangerous before he even possessed Odium.

[Aethling]

Ruin was deadly and destructive, but wouldn't have simply obliterated the planet in the blink of an eye. He liked to slowly destroy and ruin things, and was happy to build something up to destroy more. If he had been released he would have been as deadly or more deadly than Odium. If Ruin can worldhop.

I wonder where Love is among the many worlds. Shouldn't He or She be drawn to their opposite?

I think Devotion was filling the role of love. That is one of its lesser meanings.

The letter was also talking about the people that took up the shards. It says that Ati was one kind and generous. He was changed by the shard's intent. We also have to think that he was talking about Odium being the worst remaining. By this time Harmony has tempered Ruin. It could also be a perspective thing. Who was worse, Hitler or Stalin? Some would argue Hitler, while others would argue Stalin. The shards are probably like that. I imagine people that know them argue about their intentions, indeed the Letter says pretty much that exactly.

[Nepene]

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings%27s_Epigraph_Letter

Hoid states it pretty clearly here.

"Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals"

The capabilities of the individual make a major difference in terms of how bad a shard is and Rayse is much worse.

Also. "He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the Shards." This shard is presumably worse than other shards. It may have more evil magics, or cause the owner to do more evil deeds.

Edit. @Aethling Devotion is indeed like love, but I'd have thought that there would be some more direct aspect of Adonalsium to do with love what with all the God is Love stuff in popular culture. Perhaps different aspects of love are in different shards.

And yes, I hadn't read the letter for a while, I read it just before you posted. You are right and wise.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Nepene

[Carnie]

"He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the Shards." This shard is presumably worse than other shards. It may have more evil magics, or cause the owner to do more evil deeds.

This is what I was referring to. (The Big Giant Head in Kaladin's dream also says it.) It's not just that Odium is dangerous because of who holds it, but the Shard itself is somehow the worst of the sixteen. What I was asking is, how can that be, given what we've seen of Ruin? It's all very well to say "hate is worse than destruction," or that it matters that Rayese is an cremhole while Ati used to be a nice guy; that's just theory. In practice, what could Odium actually do, in accordance with his Intent, that would be "worse" than what we know Ruin would have done?

Ruin was deadly and destructive, but wouldn't have simply obliterated the planet in the blink of an eye. He liked to slowly destroy and ruin things, and was happy to build something up to destroy more.

Perhaps "in the blink of an eye" is an exaggeration, but The Hero of Ages makes it clear that if Ruin had found the atium, he would have destroyed the planet "quickly." Bang, earth shattering kaboom, everybody dead. I'd rather be attacked by Voidbringers than have the world end all at once, I think.

I belive that in the vision where Honor show delenar a possible future, in the very end we see its not only Roshar he seeks to end but the whole Cosmere.

I admittedly wasn't thinking of that. So, if Odium "wants" to end Roshar like we saw in Daliner's vision, why doesn't he? Unlike Ruin he doesn't have another god stopping him, and he isn't missing part of his power. So what's he waiting for?

Now I concede that Odium does indeed seem to have it in for the entire Cosmere; hence the theory about the Voidbringers becoming a space race that commits genocide on every planet they find. But, again, given what we saw in The Hero of Ages, Ruin could have wrecked up the Cosmere a lot more efficiently than that. Odium may be Crayak, but Ruin is Galactus.

(Heh, I just realized that the Voidbringers even look kind of like Howlers. "Creatures of ash and flame" indeed. )

Edited November 12, 2012 by Carnie

[Vortaan]

This is what I was referring to. (The Big Giant Head in Kaladin's dream also says it.) It's not just that Odium is dangerous because of who holds it, but the Shard itself is somehow the worst of the sixteen. What I was asking is, how can that be, given what we've seen of Ruin? It's all very well to say "hate is worse than destruction," or that it matters that Rayese is an cremhole while Ati used to be a nice guy; that's just theory. In practice, what could Odium actually do, in accordance with his Intent, that would be "worse" than what we know Ruin would have done?

Actually, there's a pretty good example of something Odium has done that Ruin hasn't: Odium has killed Shardholders. Something about the nature of the Shard Odium allows Rayse to kill Shardholders. This seems to be something that Ruin could not do, or he probably would have to Preservation, or failing that certainly to Vin.

Note: I am not counting the death of Leras as Ruin killing him, since the Shard was not Splintered, and Leras's Cognitive aspect was a shadow of what it was by his own design. At best, it's assisted suicide.

[Aethling]

Ruin was proscribed by the pact with Preservation. He saw it as a game. He didn't need to kill Preservation as he was guaranteed the right to destroy as part of the pact.

Except for the shatterings, it appears Odium works primarily through humans, getting them to kill one another and reveling in the bloodshed and hatred that arises. Ruin did work through people, and there was bloodshed, but he was also able to control outside events more directly than we have seen Odium do so far.

I still believe the statement about Odium being the worst was more of a point of view of the writer. Afterall, the writer is trying to convince someone to join in the battle. One common way to get assistance from others is to make your enemy appear to be worse than they actually are.

[Vortaan]

Ruin was proscribed by the pact with Preservation. He saw it as a game. He didn't need to kill Preservation as he was guaranteed the right to destroy as part of the pact.

Except for the shatterings, it appears Odium works primarily through humans, getting them to kill one another and reveling in the bloodshed and hatred that arises. Ruin did work through people, and there was bloodshed, but he was also able to control outside events more directly than we have seen Odium do so far.

I still believe the statement about Odium being the worst was more of a point of view of the writer. Afterall, the writer is trying to convince someone to join in the battle. One common way to get assistance from others is to make your enemy appear to be worse than they actually are.

This still doesn't explain why Ruin wouldn't kill Vin and shatter the Shard. He'd be able to destroy Scadrial then without any opposition from his direct opposite. Also, the pact was for the creation of humans. I can easily see Ruin agreeing to such a pact, then backstabbing Preservation as soon as he was weaker... yet he didn't kill Leras or splinter the Shard. It seems like Odium might have, not necessarily more power, but a better way to utilize it against other Shards.

It might even be that because Ruin and Preservation are representative of two physical aspects of the universe (stasis and entropy), that Odium is more of a manifestation of a spiritual aspect of the universe, and this might give him more leeway in attacking other Shards.

[Aethling]

Vin was Ruin's greatest champion for the most part. Almost all of her actions were furthering his goals. Also, Ruin was never up to full strength throughout the series. If he had found the atium store, he would probably have gone wild.

[FlashWrogan]

Looking at it from a philisophical and end-over-means viewpoint, I would say it is pretty clear that what Odium does is worse than Ruin (multiple worlds and shattering Shards aside). Lets say Ruin was able to destroy Scadrial. He would have buried them in ash and mist and killed them with Koloss and Inquisitors. It would have been terrible and bloody, but it would unite the people of that planet (as we saw his attempt to) in their quest for survival and they would have had a sense of unity, community, and possibly fullfillment/satisfaction in the end that they had done their best and stood together.

Now lets consider what it would look like if Odium had his way and destroyed Roshar. Let's assume for the moment that he has been unable up to this point for some reason. From what we have seen so far, he would tear the worlds people apart in war and strife. Civilizations would be massacred by others, and the strongest would decimate each other, collapsing. Friends and family might even turn on each other. This sounds like a much worse hell than what Ruin could cause.

[Nepene]

Looking at it from a philisophical and end-over-means viewpoint, I would say it is pretty clear that what Odium does is worse than Ruin (multiple worlds and shattering Shards aside). Lets say Ruin was able to destroy Scadrial. He would have buried them in ash and mist and killed them with Koloss and Inquisitors. It would have been terrible and bloody, but it would unite the people of that planet (as we saw his attempt to) in their quest for survival and they would have had a sense of unity, community, and possibly fullfillment/satisfaction in the end that they had done their best and stood together.

Now lets consider what it would look like if Odium had his way and destroyed Roshar. Let's assume for the moment that he has been unable up to this point for some reason. From what we have seen so far, he would tear the worlds people apart in war and strife. Civilizations would be massacred by others, and the strongest would decimate each other, collapsing. Friends and family might even turn on each other. This sounds like a much worse hell than what Ruin could cause.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/329/mistborn-3-Chapter-Fifty-Eight-Part-2

Ruin knows how to play off the lusts of mankind. Lust makes sense to Ruin, as he has lusts himself. He needs to destroy. It's part of who he is and what makes him function. It's the driving force of the power upon which his consciousness feeds to remain alive.

Ruin had a need to destroy and ruin things. The world would have been torn apart by a million lusts and self interested people, family against family, friend against friend, everyone seeking ruination.

In book 3, the world was being torn apart in war and strife. There was some limited unity, but lots of ruin and strife.

[Vortaan]

Vin was Ruin's greatest champion for the most part. Almost all of her actions were furthering his goals. Also, Ruin was never up to full strength throughout the series. If he had found the atium store, he would probably have gone wild.

Agreed, up until the part where she takes Preservation and Ruin is actively trying to prevent it. Until we have more information about how Odium kills Shardholders, you have to assume that they are on the same power level and that there is something unique about the Shard of Odium itself, or Rayse as the Shardholder. Long story short is that Rayse at the very least has killed three Shardholders, splintered at least two, probably three Shards, and is the only Shard we know about so far that is worldhopping. Just by evidence of what he's done, Odium is the more dangerous of the two.

[Observer]

Odium is currently the most powerful of all the shards we know since he hasn't invested himself in anything. It's quite likely he could collide with any shard and kill them like that, then scatter the bits and pieces left over once he's finished. If he can get the two shards to kill each other it's all the better.

[Nepene]

Odium is currently the most powerful of all the shards we know since he hasn't invested himself in anything. It's quite likely he could collide with any shard and kill them like that, then scatter the bits and pieces left over once he's finished. If he can get the two shards to kill each other it's all the better.

I'm sure Brandon said somewhere that all the shards were roughly equal in power. Also Odium probably has invested himself in things- voidbringers, the everstorm etc.

Odium is likely deadly not because of any special power but because Odium is so hateful and the shardholder is so intelligent and cunning.

[Asperity]

Odium is currently the most powerful of all the shards we know since he hasn't invested himself in anything. It's quite likely he could collide with any shard and kill them like that, then scatter the bits and pieces left over once he's finished. If he can get the two shards to kill each other it's all the better.

Actually the most powerful (currently) is Harmony. It's in a Q&A somewhere.

[Nepene]

Actually the most powerful (currently) is Harmony. It's in a Q&A somewhere.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836

Adam

Does Hoid believe that Shards are the most powerful thing?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to ask him sometime. [gives troll grin]. Or see him get asked something like that sometime. There's argument to be made that right now Harmony is the most powerful thing in the Cosmere.

Hoid would probably argue that a story is the most powerful force in the universe, I'd guess.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Nepene

[Chicken]

It seems clear that the difference between Ruin and Odium is the one between being killed and being killed horribly followed by eternal suffering in afterlife. So far the only afterlifely things we've seen in cosmere is Sazed's word that it exists and the hell Heralds go to between Desolations. Ruin seemed to have absolutely no interest in afterlife aka Spiritual Realm, while Odium is definitely involved somehow with Herald hell.

I've seen a theory around here that groups Shards into Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual much like Allomantic metals. I liked that, it looked logical. If that's true and Ruin is a physical shard, he is concerned only with destroying Physical Realm; while Odium isn't so his reach extends to (or maybe even exists solely in) Spiritual Realm. Whether this theory is true or not, Ruin is done when you're dead but Odium is only getting started.

[happyman]

I think that in the Cosmere, there are worse things than death. Just ask the Heralds.

In short, Ruin may kill us all in the blink of an eye. Odium would drag it out because he can. In fact, he may not destroy everything completely. He may just torture everything indefinitely. You think that's an improvement?

[Shardbearer]

I would point out that Hoid (or whoever wrote The Letter) seems to have a particular prejudice against Rayse and Bavadin, so it could be that this prejudice has influinced his opinion regarding who is the most dangerous.