Random (Important?) Observations about The Way of Kings

[Lightflame]

I have a few things I wanted to post, but I don't think they deserve their own threads. I just decided to roll them all together and post them here.

Humour

Kaladin: This riding the storm thing is pretty neat.

Big Storm Face: _{CHILD OF TANAVAST. CHILD OF HONOR. CHILD OF ONE LONG SINCE DEPARTED}

Kaladin: Wow, my mom really gets around, doesn't she?

Big Storm Face: _{ODIUM REIGNS. ODIUM POURS. THE OLD MAN IS HERE. THE OLD MAN SNORES.}

Kaladin: *Kills Shallan's brother-like guy* I got a Shardblade!

Szeth: *Becomes Truthless* I got a Shardblade!

Shallan: *Kills her father* I got a Shardblade!

Sadeas: *Trades Bridgemen* I got a Shardblade!

Dalinar: *Exists* I got a Shardblade!

Adolin: *Is dueling* I got a Shardblade!

Taravangian: *Holds up Szeth's Oathstone* I got a rock.

Observations

- Jasnah claims that Parshendi are Voidbringers. When Dalinar has a vision of the time just after the Desolation, he sees a bunch of corpses in Kholinar. In his narration, he doesn't mention seeing Parshendi corpses. Parshendi don't move their dead. This is important somehow.

- Only 1 in 10 people survived the Desolation. Hmmmm.

- When Kaladin and Szeth use their Lashings, frost appears around them. What's up with that?

- I'm wondering if Kaladin is hearing voices like Vin was. Shortly before he kills that Shardbearer, he hears his father's voice saying "You can't kill to protect." Then the Spren (probably Syl) sticks his spheres to him. There are other instances. It's probably nothing, but you never know.

- I don't see many theories or discussions concerning why Shardblades burn eyes out or make people into Lighteyes. Or concerning how the Darkeyes were once superior to the Lighteyes. You'd think people would mention this.

- Kaladin found a Parshendi knife with a picture on it. Rock, or Teft, or someone, said it looked like a drawing of a Herald. He guessed that it was either Nalan or Jezrien.

Random Speculation

Note: Ridiculous theories ahead.

- People killed by Shardblades become Parshmen. This theory is due to the "eyes burning out", and how the Shardblade kills the soul or something.

- Dalinar killed his wife. His boon was that he forget about her and how he killed her.

- Taking the other two into consideration: Dalinar killed his wife with his Shardblade. Her Parsh form is Eshonai.

- Parshmen and Parshendi don't like the corpses of their comrades touched because they can see the Deathspren hanging around those corpses.

- Jasnah's first reaction to Szeth will be, "I didn't know the Assassin in White was so handsome!" Jasnah and Szeth will then become a couple. Because that would be amazing.

- Sadeas is Demandred.

Thoughts on my random thoughts and theories?

[zenous]

Other then having to do crappy stuff to get a Shard Blade, i really like the thought about the Parshendi seeing Death Spern on the bodies of their dead. During my first read I didn't really pay any attention about the Parshendi/Parshmen not wanting to touch the dead. But now I think that's important. Maybe it has something to do with the Parshendi being able to bond with spern and the hundred forms.

[happyman]

- Sadeas is Demandred.

Well, duh!

[Zenith]

Taravangian: *Holds up Szeth's Oathstone* I got a rock.

Taravangian holds a rock even more powerful than many of those shardblades, lol. Do you know how many sets of plate and blade he could have if he wanted?

Don't shardblades have water or mist or whatever around them when they're summoned from (the spiritual realm? Cognitive? The Origin? I think it's the spiritual realm, but IDK). Anyway, they're probably tapping into that same, destructive power. IMO, stormlight has something to do with Odium, mainly because of the way it's described. Fury, destruction, the like.

Not all shardblades or shardblade-like things make people into light-

wait a minute. Darkeyes were in command, anciently, right? Could it be that the Shin's dislike of fighting came from an old principle where fighting people were of lower class -lighteyed-, and taking a shardblade made you into that class? Anyway, Szeth's only makes him lighteyed whilst he's holding the shardblade, and the herald at the end (Taln?) remains darkeyed with his blade out.

Stormlight 2 spoilers (from Brandon's reading):

The Parshendi don't want to fight, or, Eshonai doesn't, at least. I'd say this means they likely aren't the voidbringers; the voidbringers would likely be of Odium, hating the Alethi, not wishing to retreat or whatever. On this note, Eshonai probably would have talked with Dalinar before killing him, if they even would kill him.

On the Jasnah & Szeth thing:

Jasnah: "Szeth, I would like you to meet my uncle." Szeth: "About that..."

Edited November 7, 2012 by Zenith

[Pgibby8]

You're theory about Dalinar killing his wife makes sense, because really, what else would be horrible enough to make him want to risk nearly everything to forget?

[name_here]

I suspect darkeyes used to be in charge because lighteyes didn't exist outside of the Radiants, who weren't in the social structure. Eye color genetics certainly don't seem to work like they do on Earth, because blue is recessive. Given that mixed marriges do happen, some of the children have light eyes, and there have been no mentions of darkeyes having lighteyed children, there must be something extremely odd with the inheritance patterns. I genuinely don't know how they'd work to get those results genetically.

[CabbageHead]

Eye color genetics certainly don't seem to work like they do on Earth, because blue is recessive. Given that mixed marriges do happen, some of the children have light eyes, and there have been no mentions of darkeyes having lighteyed children, there must be something extremely odd with the inheritance patterns. I genuinely don't know how they'd work to get those results genetically.

This is actually mentioned in the Kaladin flashback in chapter 16. Mixed marriages between darkeyes and lighteyes can produce lighteyed children.

I'm going to assume that the reason you don't hear of two lowborn darkeyes having lighteyed children, is that as well as the division of society into lighteyes and darkeyes, there is also the nahn rank (caste? doesn't seem to quite fit, but very similar) structure. Recessive genes for light eyes are likely extremely rare in the lower nahns of darkeyes, as they are far less likely to interbreed with lighteyes, and any lighteyed children they did produce would find it easy to rise socially, essentially removing themselves from the genepool of the lower classes.

[darkanimereal1]

Observations

- Jasnah claims that Parshendi are Voidbringers. When Dalinar has a vision of the time just after the Desolation, he sees a bunch of corpses in Kholinar. In his narration, he doesn't mention seeing Parshendi corpses. Parshendi don't move their dead. This is important somehow.

- Only 1 in 10 people survived the Desolation. Hmmmm.

- When Kaladin and Szeth use their Lashings, frost appears around them. What's up with that?

- I'm wondering if Kaladin is hearing voices like Vin was. Shortly before he kills that Shardbearer, he hears his father's voice saying "You can't kill to protect." Then the Spren (probably Syl) sticks his spheres to him. There are other instances. It's probably nothing, but you never know.

- I don't see many theories or discussions concerning why Shardblades burn eyes out or make people into Lighteyes. Or concerning how the Darkeyes were once superior to the Lighteyes. You'd think people would mention this.

- Kaladin found a Parshendi knife with a picture on it. Rock, or Teft, or someone, said it looked like a drawing of a Herald. He guessed that it was either Nalan or Jezrien.

Random Speculation

Note: Ridiculous theories ahead.

- People killed by Shardblades become Parshmen. This theory is due to the "eyes burning out", and how the Shardblade kills the soul or something.

- Dalinar killed his wife. His boon was that he forget about her and how he killed her.

- Taking the other two into consideration: Dalinar killed his wife with his Shardblade. Her Parsh form is Eshonai.

- Parshmen and Parshendi don't like the corpses of their comrades touched because they can see the Deathspren hanging around those corpses.

- Jasnah's first reaction to Szeth will be, "I didn't know the Assassin in White was so handsome!" Jasnah and Szeth will then become a couple. Because that would be amazing.

- Sadeas is Demandred.

Thoughts on my random thoughts and theories?

 

Actually, I find most of this pretty spot on. Your point that he doesn't see Parshmen/Parshendi corpses is a huge thing--I never thought of that. Still, Parshendi are Parshmen who have found a form. I believe that the Parshendi are of Odium the same way that (Mistborn spoiler)

the kandra can be controlled by Ruin. Think about it--they're individuals, and they can be good, as TenSoon shows us, but they can be controlled by Ruin, which is why they have the mass genocide order.

I think that the Parshendi are individuals worthy of life and individuality, but something about them binds them to Odium and when Odium wants to take control, he either forces them into a particular form or that by being in a certain form the Parshendi and Parshmen alike are transformed into Voidbringers. With this in mind, it could be that no bodies of Parshmen are seen is because they have been forced into the Voidbringer form and are currently lying on the ground as rocks. If so, I wonder how this ties in with the Shin's reverence of rock.

The 1 in 10 of the Desolation is just fricking amazing and I currently love you for pointing this out. I was wondering if we would see anything like Mistborn (also slight Elantris spoiler)

Where the mists mathematically snap one in sixteen. This totally ties in and I think you've found something HUGE here. But why? I also keep wondering if this can be related to why the Shaod only takes certain people in Elantris, although that seems to do less with Math and possibly more with their intent matching Devotion.

The appearance of frost around Kaladin and Szeth reminds me of the mist on the Shardblades. I can't decide if the mist and frost should be taken as the same showing that surgebinding is also related to the Spiritual Realm, or if it should be taken as they are different, and surgebinding instead is related to the Cognitive Realm (and from what I've seen WoB, he has half-confirmed that spren have to do with the Cognitive Realm--basically answering someone saying that the fans were figuring this one out pretty quickly). Although now that I think about it, is it when they do the lashing, or is it when they breath in the Stormlight? Maybe it's not the surgebinding but the Stormlight that is creating the frost.

I could also totally buy the Kaladin hearing voices thing. Another great catch that I would have never picked up on, despite everything with Vin and being FURIOUS with myself for not noticing.

I feel like the burnt-eyes thing could show us that the eyes are a deep connection to the Spiritual Realm, which has a HUGE implication for the Inquisitors. Or maybe not, since Brandon has already mentioned/responded to questions about

how Hemalurgy basically rewrites a person's spiritual DNA. It just further proves the connection between the Spiritual Realm and Hemalurgy, perhaps.

The only theory you have that I completely disagree with is the shard-killed people become Parshmen/Parshendi. I just cannot see this happening from a gut reaction.

As for Dalinar's Boon, I really like this idea, although I'm torn between this and the fact that Dalinar mentions that he knows exactly what his Boon was--if he knew that his Boon was also the Curse, that would kind of defeat the purpose. I mean, maybe not, but that doesn't necessarily provide relief, which is what he was looking for--of course, not that the Nightwatcher would give him exactly what he wants, and it could be a punishment for his selfishness: knowing that you wanted to forget about your wife's death, so now you can't remember anything and you still feel guilty but you don't know why. That's a bit circular....

As for the corpses, again my theory goes back to them becoming one with stone or something. I dunno. I'm not convinced about the deathspren, although it could be.

 

Don't shardblades have water or mist or whatever around them when they're summoned from (the spiritual realm? Cognitive? The Origin? I think it's the spiritual realm, but IDK). Anyway, they're probably tapping into that same, destructive power. IMO, stormlight has something to do with Odium, mainly because of the way it's described. Fury, destruction, the like.

 

Hmm, the highstorms puzzle me to no end. I kind of feel like they're a mix of all three shards--they bring life via crem and water, so Cultivation. The windrunners used to ride them as Sons of Tanavast, so Honor. And yet they're very destructive and rip things apart--Odium, perhaps? I feel like Odium being destructive is a bit of a stretch, since Odium has to do with hate, although theoretically hate rips things/people apart, so perhaps...

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Hmm, the highstorms puzzle me to no end. I kind of feel like they're a mix of all three shards--they bring life via crem and water, so Cultivation. The windrunners used to ride them as Sons of Tanavast, so Honor. And yet they're very destructive and rip things apart--Odium, perhaps? I feel like Odium being destructive is a bit of a stretch, since Odium has to do with hate, although theoretically hate rips things/people apart, so perhaps...

Well, the shard most compatible with Cultivation... is Ruin. I think the highstorms being destructive might not be out of place there.

[dj26792]

The highstorms coming from cultivation is surprisingly well supported, to cultivate something you cut away select bits to encourage growth, the highstorms are very destructive but they bring crem which encourages growth. They also seem to bind communities together which is also growth... there are more exsmples but I can't be bothered to find/think of them

[Morsk]

See I think of it exactly backwards, with Ruin and Cultivation's "compatibility" being in needing and benefiting from each other. Letting Cultivation be destructive would invalidate it.

Agriculture starts by killing almost everything in a field. Then you cultivate one crop, while periodically coming back and killing pests. There's a lot of killing. I see the killing as something Cultivation is underequipped to do herself. I like the idea of cutting away select bits, like trimming a tree, but that would be her limit.

Taking darkanimereal1's idea of the storm being a mix of three gods, say it comes in three waves. Odium is first, in the destructive stormwall. Then Honor, when it brings the Stormlight. Lastly Cultivation, with the water and crem.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Here's the exact quote

NEPENE:

Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

BRANDON:

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

From here.

I'm pretty sure compatiblity in this sense means 'similar in temperment/intent'.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[blackmagic3]

Kalak sees orange blood (parshmen/parshendi) in the prelude.

[Isomere]

- Only 1 in 10 people survived the Desolation. Hmmmm.

 

I think the number 10 relates to Revelation. Cultivation and Honor looked into the future and knew they would be destroyed by Odium. They left clues and revelations to help the people left behind to eventually defeat him. They knew odium would try and prevent people from paying attention to the clues, so they included the number 10 as a constant reminder that the 10th Herald, Ishi, was a Seer and his entire Order of Knights Radiant was devoted to guiding the people based on revelations of the future. I explain my reasoning for this here, but if my theory is correct it's a pretty big spoiler. 

 

I think that the Parshendi are individuals worthy of life and individuality, but something about them binds them to Odium and when Odium wants to take control, he [does].

 

Hmm, the highstorms puzzle me to no end. I kind of feel like they're a mix of all three shards--they bring life via crem and water, so Cultivation. The windrunners used to ride them as Sons of Tanavast, so Honor. And yet they're very destructive and rip things apart--Odium, perhaps? I feel like Odium being destructive is a bit of a stretch, since Odium has to do with hate, although theoretically hate rips things/people apart, so perhaps...

Totally agree with the Parshendi concept. That odium has them enslaved fits his Intent too. It does create some dangerous implications though, I'd rather not have the Nanny suddenly turn into a Voidbringer and blow up my house. 

 

Pretty sure the Highstorms have both Honor and Cultivation in them. If Odium has his hand in the mix, I wouldn't be surprised, but I think it's less likely given his preference to avoid mingling with others. Joining the storm would require him to mix his essence with part of the other two shards. 

[darkanimereal1]

OKAY. I'm going to post this here, because this conversation about highstorms is what I kept thinking about, even though it's been a while since anyone has replied.

 

Anyway, I completely forgot that (if the ketek is right) the highstorms are dying. Not only that, but the "dying storms illuminate the silence above." I can't help but wonder if the "silence above" is the lack of Honor (and possibly Cultivation) in the same sense that people think of God as in heaven "above" Earth.

 

This could support the theory either that:

A) the storms are of Honor and are dying now that it's been splintered or

that the storms are dependent on all three and are dying now that 1 (or 2) out of 3 are splintered.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Edited to take out the Sunglasses smilie. 

Edited May 7, 2013 by darkanimereal1

[Elwynn]

Anyway, I completely forgot that (if the ketek is right) the highstorms are dying. Not only that, but the "dying storms illuminate the silence above." I can't help but wonder if the "silence above" is the lack of Honor (and possibly Cultivation) in the same sense that people think of God as in heaven "above" Earth.

 

This could support the theory either that:

A) the storms are of Honor and are dying now that it's been splintered or

that the storms are dependent on all three and are dying now that 1 (or 2) out of 3 are splintered. 

 

I remember discussions about this years ago. It's a very good point. However...

 

WoK Hardcover pg. 863. Ch. 61

 

"...And stormwardens whisper that the highstorms are growing more powerful."

"I have heard," he said.

 

Dalinar and Navani are discussing some serious stuff about the world going downhill, i.e. assassinations, the 'twisted' things people say when they die.

 

It seems they both have heard of highstorms actually growing more powerful. Which...is definitely odd given that ketek.

 

I used to think that perhaps they were growing stronger as the desolation approaches,

similar to the mists getting stronger as the end neared

, but going by the best assumptions of the calendar, the Everstorm had already begun when the conversation happened.

 

So yeah, sorry to confuse it more.   But it's definitely a contradictory situation.

 

 

edit: couldn't remember how to do spoiler tag.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Elwynn

[darkanimereal1]

I remember discussions about this years ago. It's a very good point. However...

 

WoK Hardcover pg. 863. Ch. 61

 

"...And stormwardens whisper that the highstorms are growing more powerful."

"I have heard," he said.

 

Dalinar and Navani are discussing some serious stuff about the world going downhill, i.e. assassinations, the 'twisted' things people say when they die.

 

It seems they both have heard of highstorms actually growing more powerful. Which...is definitely odd given that ketek.

 

I used to think that perhaps they were growing stronger as the desolation approaches,

similar to the mists getting stronger as the end neared

, but going by the best assumptions of the calendar, the Everstorm had already begun when the conversation happened.

 

So yeah, sorry to confuse it more.   But it's definitely a contradictory situation.

 

First, I'm curious why you think that the Everstorm has already begun. I'm guessing this was discussed in a different topic that I never got to see.

 

Second, it could be that because they're dying they are getting stronger and more dangerous, like some kind of disease maybe. Way too early to know for sure, and for all we know the ketek may be unreliable--the scribes seems to question it, at least.

[Elwynn]

You probably missed it, but some old threads are still very useful.   They just haven't been posted on in a while.

 

We have the opening epigraph:

“The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather…we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.”—Collected on the first day of the week Palah of the month Shash of the year 1171, thirty-one seconds before death. Subject was a darkeyed pregnant woman of middle years. The child did not survive. (271) [6-5-1]

 

Which takes place on day 271 of 1171, or 6-5-1 (link at bottom explains this use). Since Roshar has a calendar year of 500 days, we know that all the epigraphs after (and including):

 

“ReShephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!”—Dated Shashabev, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed dock-worker in his forties, father of three. (284) [6-7-4]

 

take place at least a 1000 days after the initial epigraph.

 

It's like I said, I used to think the storms were counting down or something, but since it most likely already came to pass that doesn't make much sense anymore.

 

I guess it's not a definite, confirmed sort of thing. But it seems conclusive to most that it all started sometime during the book. Which would make sense since Taln shows up. And later epigraphs like...

 

.“Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”—Dated Betabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: a lighteyed child of five years. Diction improved remarkably when giving sample.(307) [7-2-2]

and

.“In the storm I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving.”—Dated Kakanev, 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. Subject was a city guardsman. (359) [8-2-4]

 

...seem to relate to occurances that we either witnessed, or saw the outcome to. While the second one doesn't have to be Taln, the first is almost certainly Kaladin's experience.

 

My personal thoughts on it now are that the Everstorm (hint hint)/Final Desolation has come and the storm is just beginning to churn. They say they're getting worse because it has all just begun.

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/457-dates/page__view__findpost__p__10265 (1st one I found, probably another somewhere)

and

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlvnJhrTVOeKdHhQMWVIajZLMXIwZnR4R1ZJNDFsY2c

 

 

edit: forgot to add some things, and fix other things.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Elwynn

[Senor Feesh]

Well, these people who have visions as they die, many seem to be transported (not necessarily literally) in their head to another place and time (given the nature or the statements in the epigraphs). So the statement of 1000 days until the Everstorm doesn't have to mean from the date of the vision, but perhaps from the date of what she is seeing.

 

Or perhaps the thousand days doesn't actually refer to the Everstorm itself. "[something] is but a thousand days and the Everstorm comes" is another possible (though admittedly less likely) interpretation.

 

I've always disliked prophecy as a narrative tool... it's annoyingly vague, and can be easily interpreted to mean many different things. That said, at least we don't have too many 'chosen one' prophecies in the Cosmere

(beyond the Hero of Ages at least).

(very minor Mistborn-related).

[Meg]

The first epigraph is given to the Prologue. The date of this epigraph is the "first day of the week Palah of the month Shash of the year 1171 ... (271) [6-5-1]". 

But the assassination of Gavilar happened in 1167 not in 1171. And if this dates don't correlate, why should the dates in other epigraphs? 

 

The arrival of the Heralds (in our case: of one Herald, Taln) seems to predict that a Desolation is coming. I personally think that the "True Desolation" hasn't begun until now (now = the end of The Way of Kings). 

 

 

[darkanimereal1]

I'm going to sound repetitive, but all three of you make very excellent points. At this point, it's basically just "well, we can make educated guesses, but we can't really draw a conclusion." Basically, I don't have enough evidence or gut feeling to go with one way or the other, but I do want to comment on a few things.

 

You probably missed it, but some old threads are still very useful.   They just haven't been posted on in a while.

 

Which takes place on day 271 of 1171, or 6-5-1 (link at bottom explains this use). Since Roshar has a calendar year of 500 days, we know that all the epigraphs after (and including):

 

take place at least a 1000 days after the initial epigraph.

 

It's like I said, I used to think the storms were counting down or something, but since it most likely already came to pass that doesn't make much sense anymore.

 

I guess it's not a definite, confirmed sort of thing. But it seems conclusive to most that it all started sometime during the book. Which would make sense since Taln shows up. And later epigraphs like...

 

My personal thoughts on it now are that the Everstorm (hint hint)/Final Desolation has come and the storm is just beginning to churn. They say they're getting worse because it has all just begun.

 

OKay, first: I wish I had found this website a long time ago. Part of me is really, really tempted to just read through everything, but I just don't have the time or (quite honestly) the patience to sort through so many threads, even just in the Stormlight Forum.

 

Second, this is a great point. If your conclusion--that the visions are current day--is correct, I could totally buy into the idea that the Everstorm is already here. It makes sense that the "Everstorm" is actually a multitude of increasingly horrific storms until there is nothing left of Roshar.

 

Well, these people who have visions as they die, many seem to be transported (not necessarily literally) in their head to another place and time (given the nature or the statements in the epigraphs). So the statement of 1000 days until the Everstorm doesn't have to mean from the date of the vision, but perhaps from the date of what she is seeing.

 

However, I also like this idea. We know that the visions Dalinar was seeing took place all over the timeline. Although I strongly believe that his visions and the visions of the dying are different (in that Dalinar's were meant as a journal/record book while the others are perhaps merely glimpses into the future that Honor saw), I still think there are key correlating factors that would back up your theory.

 

The arrival of the Heralds (in our case: of one Herald, Taln) seems to predict that a Desolation is coming. I personally think that the "True Desolation" hasn't begun until now (now = the end of The Way of Kings). 

 

Finally, this also makes a lot of sense to me. We know that the KR were not aware when a desolation would occur, but that they were able to show up in places where the signs were showing (Such as in Dalinar's vision at the farm house). Although Taln is a Herald rather than  KR, we know that Kaladin is becoming a KR. My thought is that the KR's would begin to gather just before the True/Last Desolation comes so that they can be prepared. Again, it could be that they come in the midst of the storms building up as part of one ultimate Everstorm.

 

So really, I like all three ideas and I can't decide. But thanks for all the great thoughts! Got me thinking about it even more now...

[Elwynn]

I meant to respond earlier today, but I'm sick as all get out right now and completely passed out.

 

I don't know where to start so I'll just jump in. I really don't feel good so I'm not going to quote and link things, if you have questions or doubts just ask and I'll post it up later for you.

 

@Senor

It's certainly possible in light of one or two rattles, but there are several more that are happening concurrent to the storyline. One of them even talks to Taravangian's healer.

 

My personal thought is that they go to the cognitive realm, there is a rattle to support this, where they gain all this knowledge of what has been done and what needs to be done, and what is happening with important people. I guess I never really thought about it being time travel before, it just seems so unlikely because the majority of them are just knowledge or a different sort of awareness report. I see maybe two that could be traveling to the past? With so many more reporting on the here and now, time traveling just doesn't seem likely.

 

@meg

You're a little a confused. I should have elaborated on what I was saying. The dates in the epigraphs are in-book notations taken by Taravangian's healers. They aren't a depiction of when that chapter is happening. So yes, Gavilar died years earlier, but it doens't mean the epigraphs are noting that chapter as that date.

 

There is a special circumstance that I don't really see anything special with, but one of the rattles is out of order (in the link from earlier you can see). That just couldn't be, if the epigraphs were relating the current date of the story.

 

My thing with Taln, is even he proclaims he failed. We have no idea what this really means, but to me it screams that things are NOT happening like they have before. Seems very reasonable to me that things could be a little out of order, that he could be a little late to the party. Or that Odium has kind of snuck this one up on everyone.

 

@dark

No worries, I know it's a lot.

 

Yeah, Senor raised an issue that...I don't know, I've never really thought about it like that. I definitely don't see as reasonable, but perhaps possible. I'll look at it later when I'm on less medication. Seems to be a much easier, with all the concurrent visions, not to split it up and start assuming wild things like that.

 

I don't know how Dalinar's visions, or any visions Honor might have seen, have anything to do with the death rattles. It happens as they die, doesn't require a highstorm, and seems they still retain a measure of awareness of where they are and that they're speaking to someone. I'm curious where you think the back-up for something like that is.

 

I already wrote my thoughts on Taln's appearance. The way he has shown up, the death rattle, and the things he said make it clear to me things are very different.

 

Back to bed.

 

edit: spelling

Edited May 10, 2013 by Elwynn

[Meg]

@ Elwynn: I see that we agree and I apologize for having misunderstood your previous posting. And though I think that the "True Desolation" hasn't begun yet, I might be wrong (it's only my gut feeling that says that we see the advent of that event). Therefore I don't refuse your thoughts. 

 

Get well soon! 

[Senor Feesh]

@Senor

It's certainly possible in light of one or two rattles, but there are several more that are happening concurrent to the storyline. One of them even talks to Taravangian's healer.

 

Yeah, Senor raised an issue that...I don't know, I've never really thought about it like that. I definitely don't see as reasonable, but perhaps possible. I'll look at it later when I'm on less medication. Seems to be a much easier, with all the concurrent visions, not to split it up and start assuming wild things like that.

 

Apologies, I wasn't very clear when I wrote that. A more simple way would just be to say that they may be shown a vision of something that's not happening right now, and their responses to this are the death-quotes. The one who talks to the healer, doesn't he specifically say something about not telling what he sees?

 

Just a hypothetical anyway, we don't really know the nature of the knowledge being imparted on these individuals as they die, or why it only takes some there may or may not be a pattern to this).

[happyman]

This is a spoiler for Warbreaker, but I think it is relevant here, so I'll put it in a spoiler tag.

 

Lightsong in Warbreaker, after he died, saw a possible future.  So, apparently, did some of the other Returned.  Apparently, in the Cosmere, when at least some people die, they get the ability to see, not the future, but the likely futures.  I suspect that the death quotes are related to this phenomenon, but less systematic.