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Romek

Cultivation and the Shin

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This is something i touched on in a cosmere thread, but i thought it might go better over here and I wanted to gather my thoughts on the subject into one place.

I believe Cultivation is focused on Shinovar, and most likely created the Shin. Brandon stated in an interview that Honor did not create everyone on Roshar so this makes sense.

Further, soldiers in Shin culture are looked down upon while farmers are treated almost as princes. This is because soldiers can only destroy, while farmers can create and grow, which I assume is along the lines of Cultivation's intent. Also the land itself is different and has a much greater capacity for farming and growth than the rest of Roshar. This leads me to believe that Cultivation created the mountains that break the highstorms and is possibly worshiped in some way by the Shin.

Finally this makes me think that this connection with Cultivation may be why Szeth doesnt need an honorspren, as his surgebinding is powered through a connection with Cultivation while Kaladin's is through honor. If this isn't the case than maybe we haven't seen the magic related to Cultivation yet (which I feel is more likely). I believe it is mentioned that one order had powers of healing and regrowth, which would make sense to be tied with Cultivation and possibly this ability is still held by some Shin.

Or maybe I am way off base here.

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Further, soldiers in Shin culture are looked down upon while farmers are treated almost as princes.

Wasn't this the horneaters? Anyway, a fairly good theory.

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Nope it's the Shin.

“Shin are a curious folk,” he said. “Here, warriors are the lowliest of men--kind of like slaves. Men trade and sell them between houses by way of little stones that mark possession, and any man who picks up a weapon must join their and be treated the same. The fellow in the fancy robe? He’s a farmer.”

“A landowner, you mean?”

“No. As far as I can tell, he goes out every day--well, the days when he’s not overseeing a negotiation like this--and works the fields. They treat all farmers like that, lavish them with attention and respect.”

Rysn gaped. “But most villages are filled with farmers!”

“Indeed,” Vstim said. “Holy places, here. Foreigners aren’t allowed near fields or farming villages.”

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I believe Cultivation is focused on Shinovar, and most likely created the Shin. Brandon stated in an interview that Honor did not create everyone on Roshar so this makes sense.

I've always taken the weirdness (read: normality) of Shinovar amid the rest of Roshar to mean one of two things.

1) "The Expulsion from the Tranquiline Halls" is a term for the Shattering of Adonalsium and the residents of Shinovar, with their large (read: Western European) eyes and grass and chickens are refugees from Yolen. Cultivation gave them a little plot (read: nation) to live in.

And that's what it might mean that Honor didn't create everyone on Roshar.

2) There was a time before the Highstorms when Roshar looked a lot more like Earth. Which would be a little cheap as that was kind of the deal on Scadrial. But then again, you don't really get humans on planets that don't look like Earth. I assume.

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Wasn't this the horneaters? Anyway, a fairly good theory.

The horneaters regard warriors as lower than farmers as well, but it is a little different. Rock explained that the first son is always a farmer, the second always a craftsman, then the third (or was it fourth?) is the warrior. Rock always said fighting was beneath him.

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I think the expulsion of the Tranquline Halls was Honor being forced from his own world by Odium, for whatever reason. I'm thinking the shattering of Adonalsium happened far enough in the past that it may have passed out of legend completely. We don't see any hints of it on any other world, and presumably some of the worlds had refugees from Yolen as well.

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I think the expulsion of the Tranquline Halls was Honor being forced from his own world by Odium, for whatever reason. I'm thinking the shattering of Adonalsium happened far enough in the past that it may have passed out of legend completely. We don't see any hints of it on any other world, and presumably some of the worlds had refugees from Yolen as well.

Did they? Ruin and Preservation have been established as creating human life on Scadrial. It was the whole basis of their dispute.

Maybe on some of the other worlds have refugees from Yolem, but then the other worlds don't have myths about humans coming to Their world from somewhere else, heavan or otherwise. They also aren't so inhospitable to baseline human and earth flora and fauna.

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Finally this makes me think that this connection with Cultivation may be why Szeth doesnt need an honorspren, as his surgebinding is powered through a connection with Cultivation while Kaladin's is through honor. If this isn't the case than maybe we haven't seen the magic related to Cultivation yet (which I feel is more likely). I believe it is mentioned that one order had powers of healing and regrowth, which would make sense to be tied with Cultivation and possibly this ability is still held by some Shin.

Or maybe I am way off base here.

The way I understand it, soulcasting is of cultivation: it involves transformation of things, which fits well with cultivation. Not 100% sure though.

But I'm sure the same magic cannot be shared by different shards. surgebinding is powered by honor, not by cultivation, and szeth being shin don't change that. mayeb we never saw szeth honorsspren, or maybe the spren never manifested the him in the first place. but surgebinding has to come from honor.

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Innate Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding. It's a Surge called Transformation, just like Kaladin can use the Surges of Gravity and Pressure. Fabrials that can be used to Soulcast and such may be the domain of Cultivation. We're not really sure how they fit into the puzzle just yet. We've seen one Shard's magic system grant powers from another Shard so I guess it's not impossible that fabrials are part of Cultivation's system.

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The way I understand it, soulcasting is of cultivation: it involves transformation of things, which fits well with cultivation. Not 100% sure though.

But I'm sure the same magic cannot be shared by different shards. surgebinding is powered by honor, not by cultivation, and szeth being shin don't change that. mayeb we never saw szeth honorsspren, or maybe the spren never manifested the him in the first place. but surgebinding has to come from honor.

I agree with you that Shins surgebinding is most likely not from Cultivation, just throwing it out there. However I do believe Brandon stated Szeth does not have an honorspren.

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I just read that interlude with the shin, and also a Szeth one. I found something really interesting in the Szeth chapter:

The Way of Kings, page 550 (Paperback)

"At least his soul would be given to the stones upon death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness."

This is talking about his sins as Truthless; if he breaks his vow, his spirit disappears or whatever. If he doesn't, it goes to the stones. That is likely why the Shin worship stone as holy; the spirits of their dead reside there.

Thoughts?

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Since Odium isn't native to Roshar, I always assumed he went and kicked Honor's rear over on anothe rworld, forcing humans off of it and onto Roshar, and then came over to finish the job.

Interesting thing to note: Brandon made sure for Kaladin to reference how we always glorify that which we used to have. What if the Tranquline Halls have beeen overstated?

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Since Odium isn't native to Roshar, I always assumed he went and kicked Honor's rear over on anothe rworld, forcing humans off of it and onto Roshar, and then came over to finish the job.

Interesting thing to note: Brandon made sure for Kaladin to reference how we always glorify that which we used to have. What if the Tranquline Halls have beeen overstated?

Seems reasonable to me. Honor and Odium wouldn't even have power if the Tranquiline Halls referred to the time when Adonalsium was still whole. We don't know what happend on the original world, so there may have been a time that that world was still inhabited and in strife after the shattering. I find it more likely though that the shattering was an apocalyptic event in and of itself, and thus the battle for the Tranquiline Halls refers to some event after the shattering on a different world.

Rock explained that the first son is always a farmer, the second always a craftsman, then the third (or was it fourth?) is the warrior. Rock always said fighting was beneath him.

I am glad you brought this to my attention. It is good to see at least 2 cultures that appear to be heavily influenced by Cultivation.

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But I'm sure the same magic cannot be shared by different shards. surgebinding is powered by honor, not by cultivation, and szeth being shin don't change that. mayeb we never saw szeth honorsspren, or maybe the spren never manifested the him in the first place. but surgebinding has to come from honor.

IIRC, Nohadon (in Dalinar's vision) outright stated that Alakavish was a popular Surgebinder who started a war right before a Desolation, and he discussed with his advisor what should be done about the Surgebinders. Apparently, the answer was the creation of the Alethi codes of war and the eventual creation of the Knights Radiant, who presumably hunted down those Surgebinders who refused to join and/or continued to use their powers for selfish purposes. So Surgebinding may now be linked to honor, but obviously that wasn't always the case.

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IIRC, Nohadon (in Dalinar's vision) outright stated that Alakavish was a popular Surgebinder who started a war right before a Desolation, and he discussed with his advisor what should be done about the Surgebinders. Apparently, the answer was the creation of the Alethi codes of war and the eventual creation of the Knights Radiant, who presumably hunted down those Surgebinders who refused to join and/or continued to use their powers for selfish purposes. So Surgebinding may now be linked to honor, but obviously that wasn't always the case.

If we take Dalinar's visions as chronological, the KR existed long before Nohadon. I believe the first vision people are basically in the early Bronze Age in terms of technology, and the KR's exist in that vision. Nohadon's vision is after that one I believe, and he is looking out on a destroyed city and more technology is in evidence. At work so can't check my recollection, so please correct me if I am wrong

My thought is that Alakavish could have been a KR himself. Some of the divine attributes associated with the ten orders don't appear to be outright moral like the Windrunners with Protecting/Leading. Looking at Kaladin, it seems he gains magical power the more he embraces a protection and leadership role, embodied by oaths.

Now look at learned/giving, brave/obedient, wise/careful, resolute/builder, dependable/resourceful, etc. I can easily imagine a power hungry and immoral person still embodying these qualities. They would just also have unrelated redeeming qualities as well. Hence Nohadon saying that not all spren are as discerning as Honor spren. Heck, you can even imagine a character who protects and leads but is still a bad person.

Edited by dionysus
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Nohadon predates the Radiants. He wrote the Way of Kings, which the Radiants based their ideals off of. Whether he came up with the ideals himself, or simply told stories to explain preexisting oaths is unclear.

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The horneaters regard warriors as lower than farmers as well, but it is a little different. Rock explained that the first son is always a farmer, the second always a craftsman, then the third (or was it fourth?) is the warrior. Rock always said fighting was beneath him.

A bit off-topic, but for clarification: First and second grow food, third is the craftsman, fourth is the warrior.

p.859, paperback

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A bit off-topic, but for clarification: First and second grow food, third is the craftsman, fourth is the warrior.

p.859, paperback

Thanks, I knew I was off somewhere

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Note "Not all are as discerning as Honorspren"

Maybe it was once/is possible to bond with any spren? Maybe the creation of the KR was in part to stop that kind of thing, so only honorable people could surgebind. It seems like a quick and, theoretically, good fix to the problem short-term.

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