Possible David Power? Spoilers!

[Kobold King]

The "angels" are serial killers.

The "demons" want to prevent more deaths.

The terms ought to be reversed. You cannot make the argument that the people who want to keep Fortuity and Regalia off the streets are the bad guys.

 

Precisely. The terms "good and evil" or "angels and demons" lose all of their meaning when applied subjectively, as everyone sees him or herself as the hero of a story. The terms only have relevance when measured by an objective standard, and I believe that most would agree that an individual who murders millions to further his own selfish agenda is acting "evil" by any reasonable scale.

 

(Hope I'm not coming across as too hostile. I love having these kinds of discussions. )

[TheSpartanDuck]

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing exactly, but by the same reasoning I could conclude that to Adolf Hitler, the Jews and the Allies were Demons and that the Nazis were Angels. I would hold that Hitler's perspective on himself is irrelevant by virtue of the people he harmed, and that the same holds true for Epic despots like Steelheart or Regalia.

Yes! Now you're getting it. While it may be sick and twisted, Hitler saw the Jews as a blemish, and he was the savior to wipe them off the face of the earth, doing humanity a favor. It WASNT right at all, but that's what the Nazis saw. Again, it's like the Epics.

[TheSpartanDuck]

And while it may be written badly, the Winners of every war write the history books. If theNazis had won, every textbook in the word would be filled with the phrase THE EVIL ALLIED DEMONS

[Kobold King]

Yes! Now you're getting it. While it may be sick and twisted, Hitler saw the Jews as a blemish, and he was the savior to wipe them off the face of the earth, doing humanity a favor. It WASNT right at all, but that's what the Nazis saw. Again, it's like the Epics.

 

Ah... so you're not arguing that the Epics are the "good guys," but are rather just stating that they (falsely) believe themselves to be good? Basically, that while their acts are objectively heinous, they see themselves as the heroes?

[TheSpartanDuck]

And again, they are mentally deprived, so they see themselves as doing a good murdering millions. Cleansing the world, as Hitler put it.

[TheSpartanDuck]

YES!!! Again, my mind wants a cookie.!!.

However old you are Kobold, you would LOVE my gifted ELA class. We constantly get into moral and religious debates. And our teacher plays Devil's Advocate. 6th,7th, & 8th Grades always get good.

Edited April 25, 2015 by TheSpartanDuck

[Kobold King]

And again, they are mentally deprived, so they see themselves as doing a good murdering millions. Cleansing the world, as Hitler put it.

 

Ah, OK. We can agree on that, I suppose.

 

(And just so you know, you can edit your posts using the "EDIT" option near where the Quote and MultiQuote options are. It's generally considered better to edit one's posts to add new thoughts than to post multiple times in quick succession. )

[TheSpartanDuck]

I'm hitting the sack, it's 10:30 here. I have a really big project to do tomorrow. Pece. Ttyl Kobold.

[StormingTexan]

Edit: I hate when I reply to something a page back because I didn't refresh..

Edited April 25, 2015 by StormingTexan

[derrickthewhite]

I'd disagree with the philosophy of that statement. The Reckonersverse is not divided into "laymen" and "important people;" at any rate, adopting those terms is a bit of a false statement because the "important people" are all cursed. Almost literally. Making it about how the "laymen help the important people" sort of cheapens what David's eventual goal will be: helping the powerful and cursed overcome their own inner demons to keep others from coming to harm. Additionally, I'd argue that both Epics and normals should be classified as important because it's the normals who are even capable of seeing that Epics need to change. They're going to need each other, and categorizing them diminishes how the heroes will be helped along.

 

I did not come up with the terms. I used the terminology of the objection I was responding to: namely, that David being an epic cheapens a core theme of the series. 

 

I wondered if David somehow ended up with epic powers and simply didn't notice because of his current interaction with his weakness almost as soon as I put the book down. Gaining powers when you shouldn't is a repeating theme in brandon's work. I'm not sure I'm commiting to the theory yet, but I think its a strong one. The gifting is a pretty strong counterargument though. At this point I support it mostly for story reasons rather than in-universe evidence. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by derrickthewhite

[natc]

Look, if they want to slaughter millions then there's not much we can do about that.

But can we at least say that curing the mind rape so that their personalities are actually their own instead of distorted murderous megalomaniac versions of their old selves is helpful regardless? If they still want to kill us all later then fine, but as it stands it's closer to Calamity calling the shots than the Epics themselves.

[TheSpartanDuck]

I can agree with that I guess

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Look, if they want to slaughter millions then there's not much we can do about that.

But can we at least say that curing the mind rape so that their personalities are actually their own instead of distorted murderous megalomaniac versions of their old selves is helpful regardless? If they still want to kill us all later then fine, but as it stands it's closer to Calamity calling the shots than the Epics themselves.

 

The mind rape does cast many of their actions in a different light. While there do seem to be Epics who have grown to enjoy their corruption, like Fortuity and Regalia, there are others like Megan and Prof who try to resist it and would jump at a chance for redemption. Others, like Sourcefield, seem to have simply been driven insane. Whether or not all Epics are entirely responsible for the crimes they committed while under Calamity's corruption is another argument entirely, but it's difficult to argue that attempting to help them, even when they actively resist it, is immoral. 

[TheSpartanDuck]

That's exactly what I've been trying to say! Some enjoy the tyranny, while others just want to be normal, and some are just blinded by fear and madness. Studies show that different situations and states of mental stablity can destroy ones rationality.

[Mckeedee123]

Well, to comment on the original topic... I honestly think that David has had Epic powers since the very beginning, and I'm thinking down the line of him being some sort of meta-epic, based on three main things:

 

1) He claims, in the very beginning of Steelheart, that he can recognize Epics just by looking at them. Everybody else claims it's impossible, but he picked out Deathpoint immediately after he entered the bank. Immediately.

 

2) He is unusually good with using the powers gifted to him from Prof. No, he's not as good with them as Prof is, but he catches on quickly, and can even use the tensors to shape things on his first try (not very well, but yeah.) Additionally, I'm pretty sure that both Megan and Prof commented in Firefight that it was easier to control themselves when he was around.

 

3) Steelheart's skeleton. After he died, his skeleton was turned to steel. David comments on this in the book, and dismisses it, saying that weird things happen around Epics. Still, it's conceivable that David was able to use his powers against him. Normally I wouldn't care about this, but the way it was dismissed bugs me.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Well, to comment on the original topic... I honestly think that David has had Epic powers since the very beginning, and I'm thinking down the line of him being some sort of meta-epic, based on three main things:

1) He claims, in the very beginning of Steelheart, that he can recognize Epics just by looking at them. Everybody else claims it's impossible, but he picked out Deathpoint immediately after he entered the bank. Immediately.

2) He is unusually good with using the powers gifted to him from Prof. No, he's not as good with them as Prof is, but he catches on quickly, and can even use the tensors to shape things on his first try (not very well, but yeah.) Additionally, I'm pretty sure that both Megan and Prof commented in Firefight that it was easier to control themselves when he was around.

3) Steelheart's skeleton. After he died, his skeleton was turned to steel. David comments on this in the book, and dismisses it, saying that weird things happen around Epics. Still, it's conceivable that David was able to use his powers against him. Normally I wouldn't care about this, but the way it was dismissed bugs me.

1. He failed to recognize Megan and Prof. If recognizing Epics was indeed a power of his, wouldn't he have pegged them for Epics immediately?

2. I'm of the opinion that David was so good with the tensors because the fears he's lived with since childhood are similar to Prof's. My theory is that Epic powers are instinctual because they're tied to their fears, and that David and Prof have similar fears, allowing David to adapt to Prof's gifted powers more easily. As for why it's easier for Epics to control themselves around David...well, if they're fearful to the core, being around someone who is capable, good at managing his own fear, and not exactly threatening (his metaphors keep him from any sort of threatening trash talk) would be soothing and make it easier to manage your own fear.

3. There could be something more to this, but chances are it's just Steelheart's powers. There's too little evidence for it to prove anything.

There's one other problem with this idea: the Rending. If David had been an Epic all along, he should've gone through a Rending that compelled him to use his powers to their fullest and most destructive extent for a few hours. This would've been noticed, and would've ended in David either working for Steelheart or dead.

Also, how could Calamity make David an Epic if he was already an Epic?

[Kobold King]

Well, to comment on the original topic... I honestly think that David has had Epic powers since the very beginning, and I'm thinking down the line of him being some sort of meta-epic, based on three main things:

 

1) He claims, in the very beginning of Steelheart, that he can recognize Epics just by looking at them. Everybody else claims it's impossible, but he picked out Deathpoint immediately after he entered the bank. Immediately.

 

2) He is unusually good with using the powers gifted to him from Prof. No, he's not as good with them as Prof is, but he catches on quickly, and can even use the tensors to shape things on his first try (not very well, but yeah.) Additionally, I'm pretty sure that both Megan and Prof commented in Firefight that it was easier to control themselves when he was around.

 

3) Steelheart's skeleton. After he died, his skeleton was turned to steel. David comments on this in the book, and dismisses it, saying that weird things happen around Epics. Still, it's conceivable that David was able to use his powers against him. Normally I wouldn't care about this, but the way it was dismissed bugs me.

 

1) David explains this as having to do with the Epic's bearing and overall attitude. It is a well-known phenomenon that people can pick out small details about others at a glance without fully knowing why--I once knew a pair of identical twins who were impossible to distinguish in photographs, but easy to tell apart in person because of subtle differences in attitude.

 

2) Much as I hate harping on this particular fact, but Epics cannot be gifted powers. We are not sure why David is better at using them. Maybe he feels the same emotions that power an Epic's abilities, or maybe he's just an intelligent young man and a fast learner. His skill with a rifle and in categorizing files aren't held to be evidence of his secretly being an Epic, so why should his ability to use gifted powers?

 

3) I'm not sure why it would bug you. Epic powers are known to have unusual quirks, and an ability as poorly understood as Steelheart's transmutation doubly so. Maybe you're right--I never discount the possibility that I might be wrong--but I don't think this particular incident requires such a dramatic explanation as a secret-Epic scandal.

 

 

Also, as TwiLyght said above just before I was going to hit post, he would have gone through a Rending, and even if he wasn't powerful enough to have done so, Calamity of all people would have known about it.

 

So while it's a cool idea, I still think there's not much evidence to support it and far more evidence to refute it. (Though my personal bias of enjoying the "normal man vs supervillains" theme of the books might be coloring my opinions to some extent. )

[Mckeedee123]

Right... I get what you're saying. Can't argue with the two highest repped members of the forum, either. I'm just seeing all of this and it seems like strong foreshadowing (though I wouldn't put it past Brandon to just make a massive red herring to distract us from some world-shattering twist in Calamity.)

 

There's a possibility that David got powers from Calamity's diametrically opposed Shard, though, whatever its intent is. The Epics it makes might work differently.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mckeedee123

[Kobold King]

Right... I get what you're saying. Can't argue with the two highest repped members of the forum, either. I'm just seeing all of this and it seems like strong foreshadowing (though I wouldn't put it past Brandon to just make a massive red herring to distract us from some world-shattering twist in Calamity.)

 

There's a possibility that David got powers from Calamity's diametrically opposed Shard, though, whatever its intent is. That might mean it works differently.

 

We have the highest reps because we post wacky pony comics in the Reckoners RPG. It doesn't mean we actually know what we're talking about.

 

Also, not sure if you're joking or not, but...

 

 

WoB says there is no version of Earth in the Cosmere.

[Mckeedee123]

Nice try, but I know better than to believe that  

 

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mckeedee123

[Voidus]

That said Dawnslights existence seems to point at some alternative source of Epic-like powers and I've theorized before that David might get his powers from elsewhere.

[Blaze1616]

I think the biggest issue with your theory, Mckeedee, is that the device in Steelheart used to sense Epics gave a negative reading for David. So unless David also has illusion/reality powers in addition to everything else he'd need to have, and he subconciously used them at that moment, it's pretty solid he wasn't an Epic.

[Mckeedee123]

I think the biggest issue with your theory, Mckeedee, is that the device in Steelheart used to sense Epics gave a negative reading for David. So unless David also has illusion/reality powers in addition to everything else he'd need to have, and he subconciously used them at that moment, it's pretty solid he wasn't an Epic.

 

Yes, I actually thought of that one immediately after I posted. It doesn't necessarily negate Voidus' take on it, though, I suppose.

[TheSpartanDuck]

Well whose to say that David doesn't just have the most powerful powers of all.. Cooke pewors

[Patrick Star]

Well whose to say that David doesn't just have the most powerful powers of all.. Cooke pewors

 

Plot Armor, actually.