Possible David Power? Spoilers!

[Blackhoof]

No no no, that's not what I meant at all! I meant the situation is one of trusting the word of "biased or ignorant" characters. The characters are biased or ignorant, not you guys! I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to sound that way!

 

Let me explain it with an example. In Steelheart, if you asked Tia "are there Epics who can use their powers firsthand and not feel the corruption?" her answer would be "No." Now, her answer would be "Yes." (under the assumption she learns of Megan's lack of feeling the corruption) My point was using the argument of "The characters tell us Epics can't be gifted" as reasoning for David not being an Epic is not a very good argument, just as using "The characters tell us all Epics are evil" as an argument for "No Epics can be good" would be a bad argument from prior to Firefight.

 

I'd also like to say the terms "biased" and "ignorant" are in no way denoted negatively. I would indeed say those cops were ignorant, as they were not privy to the truth.

 

And again, I in no way meant to call you ignorant or biased. I apologize if that is how you read my post.

It is certainly true that the information we have is open to change- but the issue is that you are saying characters have been wrong before, so maybe they are wrong about this", but that is, by itself, meaningless. We could say "maybe calamity isn't an epic, the characters might be wrong" or any other piece of information that could conceivably be revealed to be wrong in the next book.

and id say that there is a bigger correlation between powers and corruption than between weaknesses and gifting. The corruption is a result of the powers, which are turned off by the weakness, revealed to be a fundamental part of Epic psychology, both individually and collectively. Gifting is a transfer of powers from Epic to vanilla, and possibly Calamity to Epic. It isn't a direct link with weaknesses like powers are. I don't see any reason for Epics ro be able to gift to a Heroes, it just doesn't make sense.

[TheSpartanDuck]

I agree. However nothing the bandersnatch ever writes makes sense. That's why we have this forum, now isn't it?

[Patrick Star]

Yeah, I'm also in the "David has epic powers" camp.  As I've said before, we don't know if an epic that overcame its fear still has a weakness.  If they do, that explains quite a bit.  Obliteration was teleporting around a bunch, which would explain why the healing factor was being erratic.

[StormingTexan]

I also think David could have epic powers. I think when he rejected Calamity he rejected the Rending not obtaining powers. That was why Calamity stopped talking to him because David would not go through the Rending doing Calamity's bidding killing like crazy. Basically he rejected Calamity but he could not reject the epic powers.

 

I also think water is not David's fear. Sure he may be scared to be in a submarine but it is not his "Worst Fear". Does he have nightmares about water? I do not remember this if he did. Nothing in his past has suggested he had some traumatic experience with water either. Basically I think the fear of water is a red hearing. I think his worst fear is actually being a coward like he felt he was when his father died. He has inadvertently overcome this fear to an extent in what has happened in the events of the books but now if he has epic powers I can see a scenario where this weakness is turned against him. 

 

The thing about Prof gifting the powers does not make sense I agree. But... I think it is possible David's powers are just similar to Prof's (if not a little better) and he was not gifted Prof's powers at all. The thing we haven't really seen is how Epics discover they have powers. I mean some are probably pretty obvious but I am guessing it takes some time to discover like discovering their weakness. Not to mention we are in David's POV and it hasn't really been discussed in a lot of detail what an epic mentally or physically "does" to make a power work. We know some are just unconscious reactions like Obliteration and his danger teleporting but others require the epic to do something. I think this may be believing they can do one of their powers. It is about the epics perception. David "knew" that Prof had gifted him powers and "thought" the healing should slow down like shields eventually wear out. He didn't perceive his own powers healing him at the same speed therefore they did not. 

 

Of course this is all wild speculation. I agree with just about everyone I think it would be better for David to not be an Epic but sparks I just see Brandon throwing this curveball. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by StormingTexan

[Blaze1616]

I also think David could have epic powers. I think when he rejected Calamity he rejected the Rending not obtaining powers. That was why Calamity stopped talking to him because David would not go through the Rending doing Calamity's bidding killing like crazy. Basically he rejected Calamity but he could not reject the epic powers.

 

I also think water is not David's fear. Sure he may be scared to be in a submarine but it is not his "Worst Fear". Does he have nightmares about water? I do not remember this if he did. Nothing in his past has suggested he had some traumatic experience with water either. Basically I think the fear of water is a red hearing. I think his worst fear is actually being a coward like he felt he was when his father died. He has inadvertently overcome this fear to an extent in what has happened in the events of the books but now if he has epic powers I can see a scenario where this weakness is turned against him. 

 

The thing about Prof gifting the powers does not make sense I agree. But... I think it is possible David's powers are just similar to Prof's (if not a little better) and he was not gifted Prof's powers at all. The thing we haven't really seen is how Epics discover they have powers. I mean some are probably pretty obvious but I am guessing it takes some time to discover like discovering their weakness. Not to mention we are in David's POV and it hasn't really been discussed in a lot of detail what an epic mentally or physically "does" to make a power work. We know some are just unconscious reactions like Obliteration and his danger teleporting but others require the epic to do something. I think this may be believing they can do one of their powers. It is about the epics perception. David "knew" that Prof had gifted him powers and "thought" the healing should slow down like shields eventually wear out. He didn't perceive his own powers healing him at the same speed therefore they did not. 

 

Of course this is all wild speculation. I agree with just about everyone I think it would be better for David to not be an Epic but sparks I just see Brandon throwing this curveball. 

 

The thing is, we do know how Epics discover their powers; their Rending. David didn't have a Rending. So either he doesn't have powers, or by having overcome his fear in the past, he no longer had to go through a Rending because those evil tendencies were due to the corruption, which overcoming the fear negates. Moreoever, we do know Prof gifted David powers because of the healing powers David showcased (which diminished until they were gone). There's also no other explanation for the power other than healing powers, because it keeps David feeling fine in the burning building, but then continues to heal him when he gets hurt physically in non-fire ways. So he isn't simply fire proof. There's also no real explanation as to why his healing powers would abruptly stop working either, because he wasn't feeling fear of anything that could be his weakness. To me it seems pretty obvious he was gifted to.

 

 

It is certainly true that the information we have is open to change- but the issue is that you are saying characters have been wrong before, so maybe they are wrong about this", but that is, by itself, meaningless. We could say "maybe calamity isn't an epic, the characters might be wrong" or any other piece of information that could conceivably be revealed to be wrong in the next book.

and id say that there is a bigger correlation between powers and corruption than between weaknesses and gifting. The corruption is a result of the powers, which are turned off by the weakness, revealed to be a fundamental part of Epic psychology, both individually and collectively. Gifting is a transfer of powers from Epic to vanilla, and possibly Calamity to Epic. It isn't a direct link with weaknesses like powers are. I don't see any reason for Epics ro be able to gift to a Heroes, it just doesn't make sense.

 

Though I understand your argument, I still think we don't have enough data points about Heroes to say for certain. In fact, all we know is that they retain their powers, and can use them without feeling the corruption. Nothing else.

[Voidus]

Just a thought, what if David is now a Dawnslight Epic, which is to say that he has powers but they don't come from Calamity, which might allow him to still be gifted powers from regular Calamity Epics like Prof but still have his own powerset, potentially even one that he can gift to Calamity Epics like Firefight.

[Edgedancer]

Just a thought, what if David is now a Dawnslight Epic, which is to say that he has powers but they don't come from Calamity, which might allow him to still be gifted powers from regular Calamity Epics like Prof but still have his own powerset, potentially even one that he can gift to Calamity Epics like Firefight.

Given that to my last stand of knowledge everything about Dawnslight is speculation, so all in all this is so speculative I don't even know what it would mean,

 

Something about this discussion I don't think has been mentioned yet is that Epics are also mutants and part of their body can be used to mimic their powers, meaning that how the power actual works, like gifting, is presumably hard wired into their new DNA.

[Patrick Star]

Given that to my last stand of knowledge everything about Dawnslight is speculation, so all in all this is so speculative I don't even know what it would mean,

 

Something about this discussion I don't think has been mentioned yet is that Epics are also mutants and part of their body can be used to mimic their powers, meaning that how the power actual works, like gifting, is presumably hard wired into their new DNA.

 

Oh, so they're like the X-Men!  Except not the X-men, since the X-men are named after Xavier.

 

Since Calamity made the epics, we should call all epics... C-Men... Yeah, I think we're going to stick with calling them epics.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Patrick Star

[StormingTexan]

^^That made me LOL IRL

[Dellexe]

What if David's fear (that caused him to lose his Epic power) is the death of a friend, or the sense of failure? 

In other words, Megan dying caused his weakness to activate, and he lost his healing factor. 

Just a random thought I had. Probably wrong. 

[derrickthewhite]

That being said, I want David to remain a vanilla. Otherwise the message of "The layman can make big changes too, not just the important people" that Steelheart sets is tarnished.

 

I'm not really sure that the message is there. The reckoners use epic powers. They filter them through gifters and technology, but they rely heavily on them. They took down steel heart only by actually using their epic directly rather than having him function as a gifter. Lines like "sometimes you have to help the heroes along" are about how the layman can influence things through the 'important people'. 

[TheSpartanDuck]

I'm not really sure that the message is there. The reckoners use epic powers. They filter them through gifters and technology, but they rely heavily on them. They took down steel heart only by actually using their epic directly rather than having him function as a gifter. Lines like "sometimes you have to help the heroes along" are about how the layman can influence things through the 'important people'.

Welcome to the community. I can already tell you're going to be a GREAT theorist. You just said everything I've been trying to get on paper, but my brain was like, 'Yo... Yo...' 'What brain?' 'Yo..... I..... I want a..... a.... Cookie. Is... Is that... What it's called.... Right m8?' 'No... Bad brain. No brain food.' 'Yo man..... Dude... I ned dat kookei... Mes... beiRhn.... teEuissU.... herP...'

*Drooling on desk*

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I'm not really sure that the message is there. The reckoners use epic powers. They filter them through gifters and technology, but they rely heavily on them. They took down steel heart only by actually using their epic directly rather than having him function as a gifter. Lines like "sometimes you have to help the heroes along" are about how the layman can influence things through the 'important people'.

I'd disagree with the philosophy of that statement. The Reckonersverse is not divided into "laymen" and "important people;" at any rate, adopting those terms is a bit of a false statement because the "important people" are all cursed. Almost literally. Making it about how the "laymen help the important people" sort of cheapens what David's eventual goal will be: helping the powerful and cursed overcome their own inner demons to keep others from coming to harm. Additionally, I'd argue that both Epics and normals should be classified as important because it's the normals who are even capable of seeing that Epics need to change. They're going to need each other, and categorizing them diminishes how the heroes will be helped along.

[TheSpartanDuck]

Well there is something we've overlooked. In history, Angels and Demons have been considered and know as the same thing, just on a Polaris scale. A Gaurdian Angel who helped destroy your enemies in battle is considered to be a merciless Demon to your enemies. You said that David would be helping the Damned with their inner demons, but, what if they don't WANT to be helped. 'With great power comes the desire to rule' Every man wants to rule. I suppose Reckoners can be considered important, but to Epics they aren't. Even if they do want to help, they are only important in the eyes of the beholder. There are obviously mixed emotions about them, evidence of the citizens who complained about overthrowing Steelheart, and toppling modern and stable government. Who really is the LAYMAN, and who really is the IMPORTANT. Epics who kill mercisily. Do they seem important to you? Reckoners who kill to kill(one of the original POVs of the Reckoners like Abraham and Cody and Mizzy (revenge)), do they sound layman? What about important? It is a simple excersize my Devil's Advocate debate teacher uses, and has been the topic of MANY disputes:

Who's Morale Ideas Are More Important?

Edited April 25, 2015 by TheSpartanDuck

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Well there is something we've overlooked. In history, Angels and Demons have been considered and know as the same thing, just on a Polaris scale. A Gaurdian Angel who helped destroy your enemies in battle is considered to be a merciless Demon to your enemies. You said that David would be helping the Damned with their inner demons, but, what if they don't WANT to be helped. 'With great power comes the desire to rule' Every man wants to rule. I suppose David can be considered important, but to Epics they aren't. Even if they do want to help, they are only important in the eyes of the beholder. There are obviously mixed emotions about them, evidence of the citizens who complained about overthrowing Steelheart, and toppling modern and stable government. Who really is the LAYMAN, and who really is the IMPORTANT. Epics who kill mercisily. Do they seem important to you? Reckoners who kill to kill(one of the original POVs of the Reckoners like Abraham and Cody and Mizzy (revenge)), do they sound layman? What about important? It is a simple excersize my Devil's Advocate debate teacher uses, and has been the topic of MANY disputes:

Who's Morale Ideas Are More Important?

Um....

No offense, but would you mind clarifying your thoughts before I respond to them? I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.

[TheSpartanDuck]

I was replying to your previous thoughts.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I was replying to your previous thoughts.

I got that, but I couldn't quite follow where you were going with yours.

[TheSpartanDuck]

Sorry. I was kinda going off of a mental note I had from class debate today I thought would relate to this.

[TheSpartanDuck]

You said that he was here to help with the inner demons. Well, there are instances where Epics want to rule. Throught corruption they rule. Well David is here to help, however while we look at the Reckoners as the good guys, look at the Epics POV. They want to rule with their powers, and the Reckoners are going to a.) Kill them, or b.) Attempt to help them. What if one doesn't want to be helped? David and the Reckoners are a Demon to them and theirs powers are Angels.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

You said that he was here to help with the inner demons. Well, there are instances where Epics want to rule. Throught corruption they rule. Well David is here to help, however while we look at the Reckoners as the good guys, look at the Epics POV. They want to rule with their powers, and the Reckoners are going to a.) Kill them, or b.) Attempt to help them. What if one doesn't want to be helped? David and the Reckoners are a Demon to them and theirs powers are Angels.

So? They're driven by fear to murder and worse. It doesn't matter if they think they're the good guys. They are a danger to themselves and others, and they NEED help.

[Kobold King]

You said that he was here to help with the inner demons. Well, there are instances where Epics want to rule. Throught corruption they rule. Well David is here to help, however while we look at the Reckoners as the good guys, look at the Epics POV. They want to rule with their powers, and the Reckoners are going to a.) Kill them, or b.) Attempt to help them. What if one doesn't want to be helped? David and the Reckoners are a Demon to them and theirs powers are Angels.

 

From their point of view, maybe--but it's worth noting that their point of view is diseased, twisted, and the product of an entity that's mind-raped them into thinking the way they do. To use Prof's analogy, they're like rabid dogs. They do not have the right to resist the cure so long as their disease is compelling them to slaughter millions.

[TheSpartanDuck]

Again, it's up to Who's Morale Is More Important

To them, they are Angels

To them, the Reckoners are Demons. Enda Story.

[Kobold King]

Again, it's up to Who's Morale Is More Important

To them, they are Angels

To them, the Reckoners are Demons. Enda Story.

 

I think the difference in our thinking is that I believe that morality is objective, independent of any entity's thoughts or point of view, while you seem, to me, to be implying that morality is subjective, depending entirely on the perspective of the relevant parties.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing exactly, but by the same reasoning I could conclude that to Adolf Hitler, the Jews and the Allies were Demons and that the Nazis were Angels. I would hold that Hitler's perspective on himself is irrelevant by virtue of the people he harmed, and that the same holds true for Epic despots like Steelheart or Regalia.

[TheSpartanDuck]

However, while they may NEED help, it's a matter of modern dispute as well. Do the mentally sick need to be put out, or helped? If they can't be helped, what do we do then? Just like with Regalia, they couldn't figure out her weakness, so what if they can't find the weakness of others. *GASP* COULD THE RECKONERVERSE BE AN ALLEGORY FOR MODERN SOCIETIES OWN PROBLEMS AND LARGE MORALE DEBATES IN THE ACTUAL WORLD?

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Again, it's up to Who's Morale Is More Important

To them, they are Angels

To them, the Reckoners are Demons. Enda Story.

The "angels" are serial killers.

The "demons" want to prevent more deaths.

The terms ought to be reversed. You cannot make the argument that the people who want to keep Fortuity and Regalia off the streets are the bad guys.