cl58

The Tears Of Edgli

55 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, robardin said:

But more fundamentally, just saying "my Breath to yours" is not enough, you have to mentally frame the Command of giving your Breath to someone else. And how does that idea enter someone's head in the first place?

As far as I understand it, people were aware on some level consciously of the enhanced feelings that a breath offers them. It's possible that someone who was dying suddenly had the idea of giving their breath away to help their friends/families, and managed to approximately say the right thing and with the right intent.

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29 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

As far as I understand it, people were aware on some level consciously of the enhanced feelings that a breath offers them. It's possible that someone who was dying suddenly had the idea of giving their breath away to help their friends/families, and managed to approximately say the right thing and with the right intent.

I am not so sure, if everyone is born with a Breath, you will not feel/see the Breath as a specific thing, as you don't think to your bio-elettricity as an entity.

In a world without Breath exchange, there are no drab neither people with many breath...the only way for someone to notice something odd, is to meet a worldhopper

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52 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

As far as I understand it, people were aware on some level consciously of the enhanced feelings that a breath offers them. It's possible that someone who was dying suddenly had the idea of giving their breath away to help their friends/families, and managed to approximately say the right thing and with the right intent.

I agree with @Yata. Note that non-Nalthians are not Drabs yet they do not have Breath, so whilst they are only ever-so-slightly less Invested than a Nalthian with a single Breath, we don't see any real difference from their perspective. I don't think that the slight difference in the type of a small portion of their Innate Investiture would be enough to give a Nalthian this sense of what to do with their Breath, yet leave a non-Nalthian without that (which it has to since they have no Breath).

On a more personal note, it's not been that long since my mother passed away, and I can say with certainty that in her final weeks, there's no chance that she would have been able to say anything clearly. I highly doubt therefore that a Nalthian would gain the clarity to clearly visualize and enunciate a Command on their deathbed.

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It would be interesting if Trell or Autonomy were involved; Trell (or some other god version deity) shows up and teaches people how to appropriate breath, thus sending the entire magical, environmental, and political system into chaos by creating The Many War.

 

Then Endowment needs to go on the offensive as her people spiral into chaos and certain individuals obtain unbelievable amounts of power (perhaps weakening her?). On the positive side, the world is now able to move towards industrialization and the global (as it were) stage (at the cost of a few genocides). 

I wonder if slivers take power and strength directly from the shard, making one  easier to splinter? 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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10 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder if slivers take power and strength directly from the shard, making one  easier to splinter? 

Sliver has not a really noticiable amount of Investiture, probably they will count in the global amount of a shard, but nothing more than a regular magic user...so quite nothing.

They BEFORE managed to held a lot of Investiture, but I think it would be still pretty nothing compared to a Shard

Edited by Yata
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I think Awakening was "discovered" by a Returned who gave away their Breath to someone, healing them. Returned can see glimpses of the Spiritual Realm, and often "know" when it is time for them to fulfill their purpose. That, together with their Heightening, probably gave them the understanding of what they could do.

Once people knew that was a thing, they would probably try it, even if they weren't Returned themselves. It would not produce the effect they wanted (healing), but it would do something. (And it wouldn't kill them, which is a plus.) Eventually they would try to use it to save a Returned (who would normally always die on the eighth day), and it would give that Returned another week to live.

Eventually, enough people worshiped Returned to keep them continuously alive, which could potentially allow them to reach further Heightenings. That in turn would give them a better understanding of the power, and could lead them to discover other Commands. Once they did, the field was open.

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39 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

I can't agree that non-Nalthians are LESS  invested.....

We know from a WoB that (most) non-Nalthians are less Invested than a normal Nalthian with one Breath, and that the same Nalthian without a Breath would be less so.

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3 hours ago, FiveLate said:

I can't agree that non-Nalthians are LESS  invested.....they might have the same Investiture, but simply working through different sDNA channels.  They could not push their Investiture into another because they to not have the pathways in their sDNA to pass it on..

As @Eki said Nalthis guys born with more Investiture in their soul that the average Cosmere's Human. Simply a part of this Investiture is transferable to other peoples (of course it is the Breath) this left them less Invested than a standard Cosmere's Human. As proof you may notice how a people who was a victim of Hemalurgy (He lost some of his Soul's Investiture) and manage to survive is something comparable to a Drab.

You may imagine this with numerical example (of course the number aren't official or canon):

Drab or Hemalurgy's Victim: 0,7

Regular Human (not from Nalthis or Scadrial): 1,0

Scadrial Guy: 1,2 (Scadrial people has a slight more Investiture than standard Human)

Standard Nalthis guy: 1,4 (of course with a single Breath)

Susebtron: OVER 9000!!! (sorry but I had to write it)

Edited by Yata
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2 hours ago, Yata said:

Susebtron: OVER 9000!!! (sorry but I had to write it)

I mean, by your numbers, one breath is 0.7, so Susebron would be over 35000.

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8 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Ah did not know there was a WoB on it.

But that wasn't my main point.  Take a mistborn for example.  They should have more Investiture than a Misting who should have more than a native Scadrian.  So a Mistborn should have more Investiture than a Native Nalthian.  But that Investiture is in the wrong portion of their spirit web to have the innate channels to give the Investiture away.

Nope, an Allomancer isn't more invested than a regular Native Scadiralan...They become more Invested only while they burn metals. They had the ability to obtain Investiture but of their own, they are not more Invested. Their Soul/Spirit-web is simply structured differently.

There is an exception to this...an Allomancer who had an Hemalurgic Spike has actual an extra piece of Soul stuck in him and therefore is more Invested than other guy

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12 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

The original mistborn all came from eating a bead of Lerasium...a bit of preservation concentrated Investiture.   All humans there have a bit more preservation than Ruin, hence the higher Investiture.  Every human there does not necessarily have the exact same Investiture, I would assume.  Kinda like in Elantris, how they try to feed the gods breath from young healthy active children because it was better.....ill try to find the quote in a minute.   Using your numbers as an example, I would think that Scadrialans would have a range of like 1.1 -1.3 or something, and the higher ones are the listings.

Sure some little difference is possible, but I understood you wanted to point to a "deep gap" between Allomancers and regular Scadrialian and this is not. If you talk about of minimal difference I think it's possible...but probably less than the 1.1-1.3 you proposed (because if a Breath is less a 0,7.....0,1 is a valuable amount of Investiture). 

I wanted just to notice that consume a Lerasium bead didn't add the Lerasium's Investiture to your own. The Allomantic Lerasium works according to his effect (rewriting a Spirit Web through Connections's editing) and then is gone.

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On 12/17/2016 at 11:42 AM, FiveLate said:

Where have we seen someone survive getting spiked and looking their abilities?

We have Word of Brandon that such a thing is possible. He's been asked variations of the questions enough times that we know it's possible to survive, though he's said the result would be 'worse than being a Drab'. He's also said in various forms that someone with healing abilities could 'patch' the removed portion of their soul as long as their ability to heal wasn't what was spiked out of them.

Edited by Weltall
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On 17.12.2016 at 7:36 PM, Yata said:

Nope, an Allomancer isn't more invested than a regular Native Scadiralan...They become more Invested only while they burn metals. They had the ability to obtain Investiture but of their own, they are not more Invested. Their Soul/Spirit-web is simply structured differently.

Actually they are. Secret History proves it without doubt but there's also this WoB: www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1158#27

Anyway, it's very simple how they started figuring out Awakening:

See, for Returned to heal somebody with their Breath they need to give away their Breath using Command:

Quote

Lightsong met the man’s eyes, then smiled broadly, looking down at the God King. “My life to yours,” Lightsong said. “My Breath become yours.”

Then normal humans tried this Command and eventually figured out they can also pass their Breaths to other people.

(at least I think that's reasonable thing to assume)

Edited by Oversleep
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On 12/21/2016 at 8:16 AM, Oversleep said:

Anyway, it's very simple how they started figuring out Awakening:

See, for Returned to heal somebody with their Breath they need to give away their Breath using Command:

Then normal humans tried this Command and eventually figured out they can also pass their Breaths to other people.

(at least I think that's reasonable thing to assume)

Yeah, but how would a Returned know that Command? IIRC, accounts of Vo, the First Returned, say that he died after a week due to lack of Breath. He never passed his on. (Though he did pass on The Five Visions, which Hoid states in his story of the origins of the Returned Gods, Awakening, and the Manywar, so they're probably not some kind of ascribed-to-legendary-figure thing.)

Being of the Fifth Heightening based on the one Divine Breath grants a lot of things, but "instinctive Awakening and automatic understanding of the basic Commands" is something of the SIXTH Heightening, which would require another 1,500 Breaths or so beyond the baseline Fifth Heightening.

It seems likely that Awakening was taught to humans by a Returned, though, based on the timeline.

 

 

Edited by robardin
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1 hour ago, robardin said:

Being of the Fifth Heightening based on the one Divine Breath grants a lot of things, but "instinctive Awakening and automatic understanding of the basic Commands" is something of the SIXTH Heightening, which would require another 1,500 Breaths or so beyond the baseline Fifth Heightening.

The Eighth Heightening grants instinctive Command Breaking, yet there are people in Hallandren who Lightsong goes to for that very thing.

The Fifth Heightening gives us the answer. You gain some resistance to aging as you gain breath. You don't just suddenly "become ageless" when you hit 2,000 Breaths. It stands to reason that you gain some small modicum of instinctual understanding as you go and it plateaus at the respective Heightening.

Edit: Is it a surefire explanation of how they figured it out? No. Is it more likely than pure trial and error? Yes.

Edited by The One Who Connects
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37 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The Eighth Heightening grants instinctive Command Breaking, yet there are people in Hallandren who Lightsong goes to for that very thing.

The Fifth Heightening gives us the answer. You gain some resistance to aging as you gain breath. You don't just suddenly "become ageless" when you hit 2,000 Breaths. It stands to reason that you gain some small modicum of instinctual understanding as you go and it plateaus at the respective Heightening.

Edit: Is it a surefire explanation of how they figured it out? No. Is it more likely than pure trial and error? Yes.

Yeah, I like this. It's just harder to do with fewer Breaths, not impossible, and the closer you are to it, the more aware of the possibility of what you could do at the next plateau you are, as well as being incrementally closer to being able to do it.

 

 

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I'd like to add to this that Vasher considers it significant that Vivenna is descended from a Returned.  He thinks it would affect her ability to awaken.

If just being descended from a Returned would do that, what would that imply for actually being a Returned?  Especially if they came back to save one of their relatives from dying?  They had a brief glimpse of the future before Returning as well.  They saw into the spiritual realm.  Surely that gives them insight beyond everybody else.

Awakening was almost certainly learned from a Returned.  It just seems like the most direct, and hence most likely, way to discover it.

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6 hours ago, happyman said:

I'd like to add to this that Vasher considers it significant that Vivenna is descended from a Returned.  He thinks it would affect her ability to awaken.

If just being descended from a Returned would do that, what would that imply for actually being a Returned?  Especially if they came back to save one of their relatives from dying?  They had a brief glimpse of the future before Returning as well.  They saw into the spiritual realm.  Surely that gives them insight beyond everybody else.

Awakening was almost certainly learned from a Returned.  It just seems like the most direct, and hence most likely, way to discover it.

Well, it is all very strange. Apparently children of non-heirs do not gain the royal locks. Only those directly in line will receive the royal locks. It seems the  plausibility of of becoming Queen/King directly grants the Investiture Bonuses. 

 

So, is it that all Returned Children can use the royal locks, but they stop maintaining the connection to the ability, or is it that direct potential heirs gain an ability to manipulate investiture? 

 

Then, what would happen to the children of The God King and Siri? Would both Royal Families in both nations now have the locks, or would one Kingdom wrestle away the ability inheritance? We really have no idea how this is working. 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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@teknopathetic I think all the Returned Children have this "ability" that manifest the Royal Locks, but their education teaches them "only the direct in line obtain the Locks" and their Cognitive Image adapt to this...they can't use the Locks, because they think in that way.

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9 hours ago, Yata said:

@teknopathetic I think all the Returned Children have this "ability" that manifest the Royal Locks, but their education teaches them "only the direct in line obtain the Locks" and their Cognitive Image adapt to this...they can't use the Locks, because they think in that way.

Hmmm, i read it the exact opposite way. I read it as one needs a connection to the First Returned.  I'll need to go looking for that quote in the book soon. I wish i had a PDF copy ㅋㅋㅋㅋ

Edited by teknopathetic
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1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Hmmm, i read it the exact opposite way. I read it as one needs a connection to the First Returned.  I'll need to go looking for that quote in the book soon. I wish i had a PDF copy ㅋㅋㅋㅋ

None of the Returned are any different than others, I don't think. In any case, if you need to quote something from the book, Brandon has the whole thing on his website.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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46 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

None of the Returned are any different than others, I don't think. In any case, if you need to quote something from the book, Brandon has the whole thing on his website.

The Royal Locks currently need a connection to the First Returned, as the Royal Line was started by him. It is likely that a child born of Lightsong would have similar skills, but The First Returned is our only confirmation of this trait being passed down. We don't know why the first returned was brought back, or how unique that person may have been 

 

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6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

The Royal Locks currently need a connection to the First Returned, as the Royal Line was started by him. It is likely that a child born of Lightsong would have similar skills, but The First Returned is our only confirmation of this trait being passed down. We don't know why the first returned was brought back, or how unique that person may have been 

What do you mean the royal locks need a connection to the First Returned? Are you referring to the fact that all those who possess are descended from him, or do you mean something more realmatic? In any case, yes, we haven't learned much about the mechanics of Returned or the Royal Locks, though I think it was said that Vo was the only Returned known to have born a child.

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