The Tears Of Edgli

[cl58]

I just read Warbreaker and noticed these flowers being mentioned and times saying how they dyed so perfectly. Then I was rereading some q and a with Brandon where someone asked if Biochromatic breaths could be stored in the earth from a dead body that lost it, and he said it is possible with the same thing as harvesting the nature of preservation and ruin. Which on Scadrial took the form of metal. So with these flowers clearly having some sort of more then natural investiture maybe they can be somehow used to gain breaths? is this maybe how Vasher has stayed alive? Utilising the Breaths stored in the earth such as these flowers that they only use as dyes?
This is my first post but just wanted some opinions.
 

[spencer12347]

I think if the five scholars can discover how to make a talking death sword then I think they could have discovered something in the flowers. 

[natc]

I think if the five scholars can discover how to make a talking death sword then I think they could have discovered something in the flowers.

I don't think it ever sounded like a talking death sword was quite the results they had in mind there. . .

Flowers are much more complex than swords anyway, I swear!

[entropicscholar]

I would be more inclined to state, not that breaths can be derived from the flowers, but that the existence of the flowers explains, to a small degree, why awakening requires color as fuel in addition to breath.

 

on Nathis, Color is a type of investiture. When you awaken something, some amount of investiture needs to be used. Thus, the more color is used, the less breath is needed, and vise versa.

[Curious Anamaximder]

Edgli is supposed to be the name of Endowment's Shardholder.

[WeiryWriter]

Edgli is supposed to be the name of Endowment's Shardholder.

 

That's just a theory, Brandon refuses to comment on that either way.

[Curious Anamaximder]

I think Edgli is a dragon. Sounds crazy but there were dragons on Yolen.

[natc]

Can we stop using unconfirmed names in reference to unconfirmed facts.

And I think a lot of people aren't surprised about the dragons here. It's far from the craziest thing even ignoring it being true.

[hula]

totally raising the dead of this topic- but... i'm re-re-reading Warbreaker, and got to the part where they mentioned about the Tears only being able to grow in T'Telir, even if taken elsewhere....

Has it been speculated that the flowers are to Endowment's shardholder Edgli, as the Atium Geodes are to Ruin's shardholder Ati... being the "physical manifestation of the god's body"? As mentioned here, maybe with the color being the investiture used? I've searched for the past couple days in my downtime in the Warbreaker forum about it... I saw mention of the possibility of Edgli's Perpendicularity in close proximity- perhaps somewhere in T'Telir, hidden?

Thanks all!

[VirtuousTraveller]

On 5/15/2015 at 8:31 AM, natc said:

Can we stop using unconfirmed names in reference to unconfirmed facts.

And I think a lot of people aren't surprised about the dragons here. It's far from the craziest thing even ignoring it being true.

And it has been confirmed! =)

I've wondered if Edgli's Perpendicularity is the the great landlocked sea that T'Telir is built on.  Since the Tears of Edgli only grow in the jungle area of Hallandren, I wonder if the water from the sea flows down into this valley area, taking the Investiture with it, fusing it into the local plant life.

[Landis963]

8 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I've wondered if Edgli's Perpendicularity is the the great landlocked sea that T'Telir is built on.  Since the Tears of Edgli only grow in the jungle area of Hallandren, I wonder if the water from the sea flows down into this valley area, taking the Investiture with it, fusing it into the local plant life.

Both the obvious perpendicularities we've seen (Sel's and Scadrial's) have been jacuzzi-sized.  The Bright Sea is just too big by that metric (This was the major objection I had to the Lightbringer series being in the Cosmere, over in the "X is Cosmere" thread).  However, your idea still has merit, especially if Edgli's shardpool is up in the mountains, and its waters flowed into the jungle basin where Hallandren is located.  

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Both the obvious perpendicularities we've seen (Sel's and Scadrial's) have been jacuzzi-sized. 

Well, not necessarily (Mistborn trilogy spoilers)

Spoiler

The Well of Ascension is small, but Alendi calls Ruin's Perpendicularity in his time a "lake", which implies something larger. Rashek/TLR apparently buried it and transformed it into the Pits of Hathsin, which are also rather large. Not sea-sized, but far larger than the Well of Ascension.

 

[Yata]

The perpendicularity may be a little section of a greater waterpool

[Jondesu]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:03 PM, Landis963 said:

Both the obvious perpendicularities we've seen (Sel's and Scadrial's) have been jacuzzi-sized.  The Bright Sea is just too big by that metric (This was the major objection I had to the Lightbringer series being in the Cosmere, over in the "X is Cosmere" thread).  However, your idea still has merit, especially if Edgli's shardpool is up in the mountains, and its waters flowed into the jungle basin where Hallandren is located.  

Stormlight spoilers:

Spoiler

A Shardpool is heavily implied to be in the lake on top of one of the Horneater mountains, and it seems it may simply be under the regular water.  A Shardpool within a larger body of water is probably very possible.

 

[+robardin]

On 10/7/2016 at 0:38 PM, hula said:

Has it been speculated that the flowers are to Endowment's shardholder Edgli, as the Atium Geodes are to Ruin's shardholder Ati... being the "physical manifestation of the god's body"? As mentioned here, maybe with the color being the investiture used? I've searched for the past couple days in my downtime in the Warbreaker forum about it... I saw mention of the possibility of Edgli's Perpendicularity in close proximity- perhaps somewhere in T'Telir, hidden?

[+robardin]

Not sure why I can't edit my aborted quoted post above, even from a desktop computer...

I think those "tears" (the liquid found in the marshy plants near Hallendren) are the condensed form of Endowment's power, and that Awakening is a magic that needs (a) someone from Nalthis Invested with enough BioChromatic Breath to animate and Command whatever it is they are intending to animate, which is the "breath of life" to the object that can be reclaimed, and (b) some Tears of Edgli to effectuate the transformation (the one time cost).

 

I think the "needs color" ingredient of Awakening is something of a red herring (ha ha), or rather, an incomplete herring. It's really that most, or all, of the colors in fabrics on Nalthis are made with dyes from the Tears of Edgli. When dyed objects from other sources don't work for Awakening, they just ascribe it to not being "vibrant" enough - but "vibrancy" really is about containing "Essence of Endowment".

 

Meanwhile, we've got numerous implications and cites from WoB that Rosharan Stormlight can be used as a substitute for BioChromatic Breath in terms of sustaining Vasher as a Returned. And that Vasher has tried Awakening stuff on Roshar, like maybe with a Kholin deep blue cloak, to no success, when maybe all he needed was to try it with color from something from Hallendren.

 

[BlackYeti]

16 minutes ago, robardin said:

I think the "needs color" ingredient of Awakening is something of a red herring (ha ha), or rather, an incomplete herring. It's really that most, or all, of the colors in fabrics on Nalthis are made with dyes from the Tears of Edgli. When dyed objects from other sources don't work for Awakening, they just ascribe it to not being "vibrant" enough - but "vibrancy" really is about containing "Essence of Endowment".

 

Meanwhile, we've got numerous implications and cites from WoB that Rosharan Stormlight can be used as a substitute for BioChromatic Breath in terms of sustaining Vasher as a Returned. And that Vasher has tried Awakening stuff on Roshar, like maybe with a Kholin deep blue cloak, to no success, when maybe all he needed was to try it with color from something from Hallendren.

 

This can't be the case. From chapter 56:

Quote

“Become as my leg and give it strength!” he Commanded, drawing color from the blood on his chest.

...

Vasher barreled toward them, colorless translucent blood dropping from his skin as he drew his Breath back from the rope.

Blood has most certainly not been dyed, so Awakening must be able to work with any colour.

Returned are confirmed to be able to use any Investiture to sustain themselves, so it makes sense that they could use Stormlight like that.

Spoiler

For the purposes of Awakening however I'd think that Stormlight would be too leaky to be much good: it would drain out of any object you put it in very quickly. Breath is the opposite: it remains in an object indefinitely so it's perfect for Awakening.

 

[Weltall]

23 minutes ago, robardin said:

I think those "tears" (the liquid found in the marshy plants near Hallendren) are the condensed form of Endowment's power, and that Awakening is a magic that needs (a) someone from Nalthis Invested with enough BioChromatic Breath to animate and Command whatever it is they are intending to animate, which is the "breath of life" to the object that can be reclaimed, and (b) some Tears of Edgli to effectuate the transformation (the one time cost).

I think the "needs color" ingredient of Awakening is something of a red herring (ha ha), or rather, an incomplete herring. It's really that most, or all, of the colors in fabrics on Nalthis are made with dyes from the Tears of Edgli. When dyed objects from other sources don't work for Awakening, they just ascribe it to not being "vibrant" enough - but "vibrancy" really is about containing "Essence of Endowment".

 

We have WoB (here for example) that anyone worldhopping to Nalthis could gain Breath and perform Awakening (on or offworld) and that BioChroma is one of the easiest systems in the Cosmere to manipulate regardless of your origin, as long as you have the means to obtain a Breath in the first place.

And in an additional example of color-draining that's clearly not associated with dyes, Susebron draining color from the stone of his palace to perform massive feats of Awakening. So I don't think there's a 1:1 connection between Awakening and the Tears of Edgli, the latter just works really well in fueling the former and was probably in some way caused by Endowment to make her magic system easier for people to access, given the name.

[+robardin]

Huh. OK, guess I was barking up the wrong tree on this one

That is one detailed WoB dump. I'll have to read the archives more closely. I thought I'd read them all, but don't remember that one. Actually I maybe read it too early, before reading the Stormlight Archive books, maybe even before Elantris, and it just went over my head. (I remember finding stuff here after reading just Mistborn and Warbreaker, and wondering who this Hoid guy was everybody was talking about...)

So Awakening is a magic tied to the quality or source of Investiture, being BioChromatic Breath, which is unique to Nalthis?

And "[Odium] didn't want [the combined Shardic power of Aon/Dor] to gain sentience [after Splintering Devotion and Dominion], as Investiture will do if it is left alone".  Innnnteresting.

 

[teknopathetic]

I wonder if color return to an item over time (either through some sort of diffusion or cognitive-realm regrowth) - Will the castle be grey forever? Will a painted stone only have a thin layer of color or will the identity of colorfulness return to it? 

[teknopathetic]

13 hours ago, robardin said:

Huh. OK, guess I was barking up the wrong tree on this one

 

You might not be totally wrong. As far as anyone knows, Awakening didn't start happening until the invaders from afar found the the jungle. It is entirely likely that something ecologically has changed and the flowers are effecting the world in a different way. The stone could have been once painted by tears and the blood could have specks of tear-essence in it, I admit we need to build a lot of scaffolding, but SOMETHING happened to the magic system in the recent past, and it is heavily implied this change was environmental.

If only we knew why Awakening didn't work before (or if the indigenous cultures kept the art a secret). My home is that Endowment is taking a stand against Odium and hoping to send Endowed Agents against him. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by teknopathetic

[Yata]

@teknopathetic simply the awakening was unknown before someone with an high intuitive skill manage to understand something.

Before that moment, people didn't even know about Breath, they simply didn't know the Commands and they born, live and die without change their breath.

What we see as strange about Biocroma, is simply their standard reference system....only the worldhoppers may notice something strange.

Then the Returning began and the people see something different, it's possible that the simplier command was discovered by the Returneds then when someone may stack up Breath, they start to learn of it

[+robardin]

That is a good point - Awakening was only discovered when the current people of Hallendren arrived, right? Displacing the former residents to Idris, with Pahn Kahl on the short end of both situations (from their POV)? Yet the Returned pre-date even that, as Vo the First Returned founded the dynastic line of Idris.

And, think about it, given what we know about its mechanics, how could Awakening be "discovered"? You have to have quite a few Breaths before it's even possible, and to acquire more than your own natural one, someone has to know the basic Command "my breath to yours", with the intent in mind to transfer their Breath to you. It seems highly unlikely for people to just be sitting around one day, and both to conceive of having transferable Breath and then to say that. Where did that information come from? And its timing is relatively recent.

Add to that the fact that the Five Scholars quickly progressed to fairly advanced Realmatic understanding, despite Awakening having what looks like the highest hurdle to beginning to Do Stuff With Investiture of any magic system we've seen in the Cosmere, regardless of the relatively simple mechanics.

The most obvious candidates are either Endowment sparking the discovery via a Returned with embedded information in their unconscious - maybe one of the Five Scholars, or all of them - or some worldhopping meddler of a Realmatic Theory guru coming in, figuring it out, and dropping knowledge on the locals. (You'd think this would be Hoid, but if you take his comment about how nice it was to have perfect pitch when tuning his "guitar" in WoR as implying he only recently acquired it, that would seem impossible since Vasher/Zahel and Nightblood are on Roshar at the same time and have been around for hundreds of years already. Though Hoid apparently doesn't move through time the same way as everybody else.)

I prefer the first theory, anyway, because otherwise what's Endowment doing?

 

 

[BlackYeti]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

That is a good point - Awakening was only discovered when the current people of Hallendren arrived, right? Displacing the former residents to Idris, with Pahn Kahl on the short end of both situations (from their POV)? Yet the Returned pre-date even that, as Vo the First Returned founded the dynastic line of Idris.

And, think about it, given what we know about its mechanics, how could Awakening be "discovered"? You have to have quite a few Breaths before it's even possible, and to acquire more than your own natural one, someone has to know the basic Command "my breath to yours", with the intent in mind to transfer their Breath to you. It seems highly unlikely for people to just be sitting around one day, and both to conceive of having transferable Breath and then to say that. Where did that information come from? And its timing is relatively recent.

Add to that the fact that the Five Scholars quickly progressed to fairly advanced Realmatic understanding, despite Awakening having what looks like the highest hurdle to beginning to Do Stuff With Investiture of any magic system we've seen in the Cosmere, regardless of the relatively simple mechanics.

Actually you can Awaken with only one Breath, just look at the one-Breath Command for creating Lifeless, and there are doubtless other such Commands. In fact technically just giving your Breath to someone with the "my Breath to yours" command is an Awakening. So gaining multiple Breaths is not a requirement.

Also, remember the more Breath that you have, the more instinctive it is to Awaken. True Instinctive Awakening is only offered with the Sixth Heightening, but lower Heightenings do bring you part way there. Returned are naturally at the Fifth Heighteing, so I could easily imagine that a Returned could figure it out if they put their mind to it (that's doubtless how they managed to start healing people with their Divine Breath). That being the case, the Five Scholars seem to me like the sort of people who would be able to work it out.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, BlackYeti said:

Actually you can Awaken with only one Breath, just look at the one-Breath Command for creating Lifeless, and there are doubtless other such Commands. In fact technically just giving your Breath to someone with the "my Breath to yours" command is an Awakening. So gaining multiple Breaths is not a requirement.

Also, remember the more Breath that you have, the more instinctive it is to Awaken. True Instinctive Awakening is only offered with the Sixth Heightening, but lower Heightenings do bring you part way there. Returned are naturally at the Fifth Heighteing, so I could easily imagine that a Returned could figure it out if they put their mind to it (that's doubtless how they managed to start healing people with their Divine Breath). That being the case, the Five Scholars seem to me like the sort of people who would be able to work it out.

I meant you'd need at least one "extra" Breath to do Awakening, unless you wanted to become a Drab...

But more fundamentally, just saying "my Breath to yours" is not enough, you have to mentally frame the Command of giving your Breath to someone else. And how does that idea enter someone's head in the first place?

As for instinctive Awakening with more Breath - that is interesting - a Returned only has one Breath, but it's a "divine" one, enough to reach the Fifth Heightening all on its own, but it still only lasts the one week. Is that "higher quality" enough to make Awakening more instinctive? I always thought of it as "having extra Breath (than baseline) made it easier", but if Heightening alone were it, that would make sense.

That would still count as Endowment setting things up for Awakening, too.